2009-2011 Diamond Drive Bearing Failure

[MUZBOMB]

Can I use any kind of spray to clean it up then once or is all apart? How hard is it to take the rest of the gears out?? Do I just pull on it and they will come out??

 

[bgreen776]

There are detailed descriptions on here and other forums that will help in the dissassy. Once the gears are out of the case, you should be fine using any sort of common automotive solvent or cleaner on them.

 

[mynewuseddoo]

Installing my CPC stage 2 turbo kit right now. Went to replace the single row to the double row bearing and the bearing cage on mine is chewed to sh!t also. 300 miles on a stock machine, incredible.....The tuirbo install is going great though

 

[Diamond8]

Really the easiest thing to do would be to run the single row 7203 Angular contact bearing which would fit perfectly using the shaft spacer. Also, Single row bearings are naturally more forgiving when a situation of misalignment comes into play; combine that with an Angular contact bearing and you can provide a nice bandaid for all the poor ACAT engineering.[/QUOTE]



UPJohn,

In reference to the bearing you spoke of above.......the 7203 Angular Contact "single row" bearing. It is indeed a direct replacement in all dimensions for the stock "roller bearing" however........being a single row angular contact bearing it may not be the best to use in this application. My engineering books say that single row angular contact bearings should be used in pairs most often then not in order to handle side loading equally in both directions. A single row angular contact bearing is good at holding side load in only one direction.

Now I know........you could orientate the single row angular contact bearing so that it is able to handle the side load best when the sled is moving forward........but in reverse that side load is going to be in the opposite direction. In reverse the loads are not probably as dramatic.......but again single row angular contact bearings will handle considerable side loads in one direction......and dang near nothing for side loads in the other direction.

A guy would have to be sure that the bearing was orientated correctly ( proper side of the bearing toward where the most side load is coming from) so that while the sled is in forward motion the bearing would take the most side load. Otherwise......the abuse and thrust from forward motion on the sled would just go toward pushing the bearing appart.

I just am trying to add some more useful information. It really looks like the best bet for durability would be to go with the 5203-2RS which is superseeded by some manufacturers now as the 3203-RS as it is a "double row" angular contact bearing that will equally take side load from either direction.

Yes on 2010 M8's it would seem that there may be some machine work to get the "double row" angular contact bearing ( 5203 / 3203 ) to fit as most folks have seen that it is between 1.0mm and 1.5mm thicker than the stock bearing and spacer. But the previous posts talk extensively about how to accomodate this extra length. Machining for clearence on the transfer gear is not an easy task in most of our garages.......but for a qualified machine shop it is a very quick and easy task to trim 1.0mm to 1.5mm off of the shoulder of the transfer gear where the inner race of the bearing seats out.

Sorry for the long winded post........I am just trying to help get more information out to those folks working on this fix for our sleds. I just ordered up a SKF 3203A-2RS-1TN9 ( the A is for american the country of origin for the bearing......the "2RS" is the designation for a double sealed bearing I don't know what the remaining numbers are ). It's a double row angular contact bearing with 30-degree angles on the ramps and it's dimensions are 17mm bore, 40mm O.D., and 17.46mm width. So it most likely will have me shaving the shoulder on the transer gear to get the proper height for my 2010 M8. I found it through applied industrial ( applied.com ) and it ran $47.07 US bucks. But there are lots of manufactures that make this style and size of bearing........and at Applied.com.......you have to enter the bearing spec's......and THEN it will pull up a page with about 6-to-8 manufacturers of this exact bearing..........click on each one individually and it will break down specifics..........race material, seal material, lubrication used within, ramp angle, static and dynamic loading etc.

Also.........another piece of information.......when looking at angular contact bearings for our sleds.......the double row kind of course......it is good to pay attention to the angle of the ramps incorporated into the bearing. They come in 20, 25, 30, and 40 degree ramps. The higher the anle of the ramp ( higher number ) the more side loading the bearing will take and the less...... for lack of better words..........up and down loading the bearing will take. So it may be wise to shoot in the middle of those numbers for ramp angle to try and get the best of both worlds.......side loading and up-and-down force loading of the bearing.

Ok........that is what I know........sorry again fellas for the long post.....I have read all nine pages of this thread and it has been incredibely informative and interesting and I just wanted to share a bit of what I have found as I have dug into this project for my own sled. I have 395 miles on my sled and I will report back once I get into it and let everyone know what I found inside the case............cheers and happy prep-season to all of you fellas.....I hope you all are getting as jacked up as me for the upcoming season!!!

Take Care,

Dave

 

[Flange]

Installed 3203-2RS

First I'd like to thank all the previous posters on this thread for sharing their information. It was because of this thread that I opened up the DD on my 2010 M8 SnoPro 162 with 622 miles on it, and found a ticking time bomb. Bearing cage was almost completely gone, along with 2 or 3 ball bearings. My bearing supplier confirmed that the 5203 and 3203 are the same bearing. They had the 3203 in stock so thats what I went with. I decided to remove the complete DD instead of just the cover so that I could easily inspect everything.


Here are some pics of the stock 6203 with the spacer, to give you an idea of just how much thinner the 6203 is compared to the 5203/3203.



I replaced the 6203 and spacer with the 3203 and of course wasn't fortunate enough to have my cases go back together without forcing them. I needed about 1.5mm additional clearance in order to get the cases together without forcing them. Near as I could tell, the Transfer Gear was sitting on the outer race of the 3203 bearing, inside the Output Gear and this is what was preventing the cases from seating together. It appeared that if I could get the 3203 further onto the shaft, this would allow the Transfer Gear to drop a little further into the Planetary Gears. I decided to used my Dremel to grind a little off the shoulder of the Transfer Gear so the 3203 would go further onto the shaft. There didn't appear to be any significant difference in the way the Transfer Gear sat inside the Planetary Gears. This allowed the cases to go together perfectly. The DD went back into the sled and seated up against the bulkhead without any effort. Hopefully this fixes this issue. I will definitely be keeping an eye on it.

 

[Stack]

Really the easiest thing to do would be to run the single row 7203 Angular contact bearing which would fit perfectly using the shaft spacer. Also, Single row bearings are naturally more forgiving when a situation of misalignment comes into play; combine that with an Angular contact bearing and you can provide a nice bandaid for all the poor ACAT engineering.

Dave,

I do agreee with you to some extent, but I have spent a lot of time talking with my rep @ Motion Industries and direct with the Application engineers at FAG on the 7203 for this application. Personally Im not sold that this is a side load issue, I think there are misalignment issues on some of these sleds that may be "Helped" by the double row AC bearings, but this does not address the root cause of the issue.

The 7203 is still unproven, and although I think it is the better bearing for misalignment, I am not sure if it will be able to handle all of the side load I will be throwing at it. The 7203 is only available in a -2RS from 1 MFG in Germany, it is a very high quality bearing with 40 deg and would definitly be better against misalignment versus a double row, but again...unproven as far as the side loading.


Myself, I have gone with 4203-2RS for this season, as I found a manufactuer of this bearing with a quality record I can actually track....unlike the stuff on EBAY

I would say the 5203 and 4203 are the preferred bearing for the 2010. My first choice would be the 5203 if you can get the cases to fit, but for those who dont want to do any machining, the 4203-2R2 is a nice option as well. You can always modify to get the 5203 to work


Overall, Your choice of 5203-2RS was a good one, and I look to give some feedback on the 4203-2RS from my supplier this winter. I also have a few other guys out there trying the 4203 bearings.

If you need that 5203 SKF let me know, I can get you a better price than that for sure!

I appeciate your info as well


John

 

[killerrf]

First I'd like to thank all the previous posters on this thread for sharing their information. It was because of this thread that I opened up the DD on my 2010 M8 SnoPro 162 with 622 miles on it, and found a ticking time bomb. Bearing cage was almost completely gone, along with 2 or 3 ball bearings. My bearing supplier confirmed that the 5203 and 3203 are the same bearing. They had the 3203 in stock so thats what I went with. I decided to remove the complete DD instead of just the cover so that I could easily inspect everything.
View attachment 111169

Here are some pics of the stock 6203 with the spacer, to give you an idea of just how much thinner the 6203 is compared to the 5203/3203.
View attachment 111170
View attachment 111171

I replaced the 6203 and spacer with the 3203 and of course wasn't fortunate enough to have my cases go back together without forcing them. I needed about 1.5mm additional clearance in order to get the cases together without forcing them. Near as I could tell, the Transfer Gear was sitting on the outer race of the 3203 bearing, inside the Output Gear and this is what was preventing the cases from seating together. It appeared that if I could get the 3203 further onto the shaft, this would allow the Transfer Gear to drop a little further into the Planetary Gears. I decided to used my Dremel to grind a little off the shoulder of the Transfer Gear so the 3203 would go further onto the shaft. There didn't appear to be any significant difference in the way the Transfer Gear sat inside the Planetary Gears. This allowed the cases to go together perfectly. The DD went back into the sled and seated up against the bulkhead without any effort. Hopefully this fixes this issue. I will definitely be keeping an eye on it.
View attachment 111172

thats what i did also. after i got the 5203 on the shaft further the cases when back together with no force at all. i grinded down then measured in a few spots to make sure i was somewhat close then pushed the bearing on... test fitted then pullled bearing back off and tried again. after i was done i found the planet gears are fully engaged with the sun gear. they werent before. 1/4 of the width of the planet gears werent in contact. see how it goes this winter.

 

[Diamond8]

First I'd like to thank all the previous posters on this thread for sharing their information. It was because of this thread that I opened up the DD on my 2010 M8 SnoPro 162 with 622 miles on it, and found a ticking time bomb. Bearing cage was almost completely gone, along with 2 or 3 ball bearings. My bearing supplier confirmed that the 5203 and 3203 are the same bearing. They had the 3203 in stock so thats what I went with. I decided to remove the complete DD instead of just the cover so that I could easily inspect everything.
View attachment 111169

Here are some pics of the stock 6203 with the spacer, to give you an idea of just how much thinner the 6203 is compared to the 5203/3203.
View attachment 111170
View attachment 111171

I replaced the 6203 and spacer with the 3203 and of course wasn't fortunate enough to have my cases go back together without forcing them. I needed about 1.5mm additional clearance in order to get the cases together without forcing them. Near as I could tell, the Transfer Gear was sitting on the outer race of the 3203 bearing, inside the Output Gear and this is what was preventing the cases from seating together. It appeared that if I could get the 3203 further onto the shaft, this would allow the Transfer Gear to drop a little further into the Planetary Gears. I decided to used my Dremel to grind a little off the shoulder of the Transfer Gear so the 3203 would go further onto the shaft. There didn't appear to be any significant difference in the way the Transfer Gear sat inside the Planetary Gears. This allowed the cases to go together perfectly. The DD went back into the sled and seated up against the bulkhead without any effort. Hopefully this fixes this issue. I will definitely be keeping an eye on it.
View attachment 111172

Thanks for the pictures............I did the same thing........I went with a 5203 SKF bearing........I am lucky to have access to a full tool and die machine shop at work so we chucked up the gear assembly between centers and machined the 1.5mm off of the transfer gear bearing seat. The new bearing pressed on and the cases went back together with relative ease.

I say Relative as there was a little light tapping around the edges with a soft mallet to get the case to work together and seat out on each other. I had just under 400 miles on my sled and my bearing although it was not falling appart.........it was very rough. I found metal shavings inside the bearing housing.........and once I pulled the lip seals out of the bearing I found metal shavings in there as well. All in all I am glad that I did the fix. I have a couple buddies bringing me their 2010, and 2009 M8's on Wednesday to tear appart and do the same thing.

I feel better about doing the modification..........and knowing that you did it carefully with a dremel will surely help others on here to accomplish the same task. I was feeling fortunate to have the machine tools at my disposal to get the work done. I am just very thankful to this thread and all the information within it.........it helped me tremendously......and is the reason that I enjoy being part of this community called SnoWest. Thanks again fellas for the help and happy sledding..........winter can't come soon enough!

Take Care,

Dave

 

[Diamond8]

Hey guys.........just thought I would pass along one more piece of information..........the 13 torx bolts that hold the diamond drive cover together.........well they are M6X1 bolts and I had read that the torque spec for re-assembly was 12 ft. lbs. Well...........that is the proper torque for that fastener when threading into steel, stainless steel, or Iron.

When threading the M6X1 into aluminum the spec is 7.5-to-10 ft.lbs. I know this doesn't seem like much........but when you put it into inch-pounds it's 144 inch-pounds for ( 12ft. lbs. ) and 100 inch pounds for ( 8.3 ft.lbs. ). Anywho.........I used my trusty little snap-on inch-pound torque wrench set at 144 inch-pounds / 12ft.lbs. and I pulled the threads on two of my case bolts.

Now........before re-installing the bolts I cleaned the bolts........chased all the threads with a tap etc............so ultra careful......and yeah......bummer still pulled some threads. So now I am having to Heli-Coil those couple holes......and I might just do them all while I am at it. I just wanted to give a heads up so other folks don't experinence the same issue. The rest of the holes still tighten up........but I can feel that in the majority of them I have stretched the threads as the bolts are loosey-goosey half way through the threaded hole.

Good thing it's early season.........

Take Care Fellas.........

Dave

 

[seth25]

Just got my 4203 bearing from UpJohn. Perfect fit on the 2010 DD. No machining necessary. My stock 6203 bearing was in good shape, no shavings in the oil, but still changed it anyway.

 

[jddecock]

What do you think?

OK, so after reading this post I torn into my DD and of course the infamous bearing on my 2010 M8 with 800 miles had grenaded. Got a couple questions; 1. For those whos bearings have went, have you been replacing all of the bearings due to metal chunks and shavings floating around inside everywhere and 2. Do I let my dealer fix it under warranty (I called them and they said to bring it in and they would take care of it) or should I fix it myself with the better bearing?

 

[mmp]

I replaced 6203 bearing to 3203. Someone posted earlier photo where 6203 with spacer was measured 15,91 mm wide.
Mine was 17,2 mm and 3203 went in without any troubles.

Funny how big differences there can be with spacers.

 

[KAWGRN]

2010 M

Yep took my 2010 apart to change gears and the bearing that drops to the center of the planetary set was wasted the seal had come out and pieces of the cage were hanging out it looks like the bearings are all there but I took it all apart to inspect every part ,,I wondered why Black Diamond was very persuasive when I purchased the alternate gear set that I get the new two row bearings Thank goodness , other wise I would be waiting for the up graded bearings instead the case came out and in in 1hour,,PS when I drained the oil it came out CLEAN with no sign of metal,, VERRRRRY SCARRY

 

[Diamond8]

Pulled apart my buddies 2009 and another friends 2010 M8 last night to have a look at the bearing. The 2009 was still intact but very rough and starting to loos a seal with around 440 miles on the clock ( he bought it last year as a holdover ). The 2010 had just over 500 miles and the bearing had lost both seals and all but one little piece of the bearing cage. All the balls were still in it..........but they were all collected up together.

So that is 3 sleds in my cirlcle of friends mine included that this thread helped save. Thank goodness for threads such as this one here on Snowest. It just saved us all a lot of money in repairs. I upgraded mine to the double row angular contact bearing and I will be doing the same for their sleds as well. I keep spreading the word about this to my Arctic Cat ridding buddies trying to let everyone know. Crazy that there is this many folks finding the same problem and Arctic Cat just sits on it. Yeah......if you have it worked on for warranty that's cool.......but if they just go back in with the same beater of a bearing than it kind of defeats the purpose as the DD will still be a ticking time bomb.

Ok........done with rant.........everyone have a great weekend ahead........I'm off to the BIG NASTY HILLCLIMB in New Plymouth Idaho.........if you have never been you need to go.......it's quite entertaining. Here's the link to check it out at:

www.bignastyhillclimb.com

Cheers!

Dave

 

[Stack]

Hey guys.........just thought I would pass along one more piece of information..........the 13 torx bolts that hold the diamond drive cover together.........well they are M6X1 bolts and I had read that the torque spec for re-assembly was 12 ft. lbs. Well...........that is the proper torque for that fastener when threading into steel, stainless steel, or Iron.

When threading the M6X1 into aluminum the spec is 7.5-to-10 ft.lbs. I know this doesn't seem like much........but when you put it into inch-pounds it's 144 inch-pounds for ( 12ft. lbs. ) and 100 inch pounds for ( 8.3 ft.lbs. ). Anywho.........I used my trusty little snap-on inch-pound torque wrench set at 144 inch-pounds / 12ft.lbs. and I pulled the threads on two of my case bolts.

Now........before re-installing the bolts I cleaned the bolts........chased all the threads with a tap etc............so ultra careful......and yeah......bummer still pulled some threads. So now I am having to Heli-Coil those couple holes......and I might just do them all while I am at it. I just wanted to give a heads up so other folks don't experinence the same issue. The rest of the holes still tighten up........but I can feel that in the majority of them I have stretched the threads as the bolts are loosey-goosey half way through the threaded hole.

Good thing it's early season.........

Take Care Fellas.........

Dave

Those torx screws are Tri-Lobular self tappers, they are designed to self tap as well as be reused. It is very easy to pull them out with too much torque, and it can be easy to cross thread them. I had 1 pull out and heli coiled it with a stainless insert (Following ACAT torque specs the first one pulled right out, no cleaning with a tap could help me).

I found some sweet Titanium button head torx if I ever decide to drill and helicoil all of them



John

 

[_AJ_]

2010 M8 diamond drive bearing failure

Here are the pics of my 2010 M8 SP diamond drive bearing failure at 450.9 miles of mostly family type riding. Looks like we caught it just in time. As seen in the top photo, the cage is broken and cracked at just about every rivet. The bottom photo is the other side of the bearing. This picture shows the cage bulging out at the 2 and 3 o'clock position. The other internals of my diamond drive appear to be in good shape. I've thoroughly flushed the case and the planetary gear set.

This damage was not evident until I removed the seals on the bearing and the was not any debris in the drained oil either. One should not assume theirs is OK just because the oil was clean. It is not a difficult task to disassemble and inspect.

I took careful measurements of the OEM 6203 bearing location and determined that it was underhung .054 from the end of the shaft. I will be machining the shoulder on the shaft back a bit to allow the 5203 RS bearing to set in the same location and discard the original spacer.

Thanks for all the info on this issue. These are the kind of helpful posts that were lost when Snowest changed over to the new system. Slowly but surely we'll get built back up.

I'm glad to have caught it pre season!

Cheers,

AJ

 

[HiWaYman92]

So what is the final verdict: Which replacement bearing is best to replace with if you don't want to machine the case? This project is scheduled for the dead time after hunting season and before the snow flies!

 

[_AJ_]

IMO.... The best fix is to buy a 5203 RS bearing and machine or grind the shoulder on the shaft back .050 This will locate it .054 below the end of the shaft and be in exactly the same location as the OEM bearing. The cover goes on no problem.

Not trying to be sarcastic, but it seems the other options are somewhat of a half step and require almost the same amount of work and materials. This is really an easy repair.

6203 not the answer
4203 close but not quite the right bearing characteristics and harder to find
5203 built to last and easy to find. True angular contact design for 2 way side loads.

Which ever you choose is better than stock.

AJ

 

[Diamond8]

IMO.... The best fix is to buy a 5203 RS bearing and machine or grind the shoulder on the shaft back .050 This will locate it .054 below the end of the shaft and be in exactly the same location as the OEM bearing. The cover goes on no problem.

Not trying to be sarcastic, but it seems the other options are somewhat of a half step and require almost the same amount of work and materials. This is really an easy repair.

6203 not the answer
4203 close but not quite the right bearing characteristics and harder to find
5203 built to last and easy to find. True angular contact design for 2 way side loads.

Which ever you choose is better than stock.


AJ

Great way to sum up nine pages of information in one sweet short statement AJ.......

Dave

 

[907riders.com]

All 2009 M and Xfire drive units came with 6203 sealed bearings. The 6203 bearing is failing because of excessive loads on the bearing due to the 1" further spacing that it has compared to the earlier forward only units. We have the 5203 bearing that is a double row bearing that will handle the excessive loads. These bearings are sealed because of the centrifical forces will not allow outside oil to get to the pocket bearing when at high speed operation. You can get this bearing individually or in the bearing kit. All 2009 M owners should replace this bearing to avoid future problems. Call us for info. 507-824-9966.

Ray

Page one had the answer all along...