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mynewuseddoo
Well-known member
Deffinately more M8's I'm thinking!!
2 strokes complete standalone ecu for t-m8 and t-m1000
- Thread starter supraturbo
- Start date
It's not true you have to have a Dyno to tune an ECU. Sure it makes it easier but not a requirement. I tuned my 1500 turbo 4 stroke sled with Motec and no Dyno, you just need good data logging.
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supraturbo
Banned
agree with you, but data logging takes forever.....why datalog when you can go on a dyno? sure it is more accomodating for the mass people,not as precise but can put together a good map.
If it's not tuneable/adjustable like the Autronic SM4 or Vipec I wouldn't say its stand alone.. The customers must have the chance to adjust their maps by them selfs...
Just my 2 cent...
Just my 2 cent...
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supraturbo
Banned
for your info, we are distributor and using vi-pec v44 for this project but we made a deal with the company for them to build us a specific board and circuit for snowmobile application and only for us (copyright and trademark). it is possible for the final user to develop their own maps.....but it won't be as close as to the one we are developing......not even a chance. i will repeat it again, what we are calling tuning with the fuel boxes is absolutely bullsh!!t it is just a band aid on a blister.......YOU CANNOT do that effectively ......when your sled was n/a, did you have to mess up with the oem ecu mapping? the answer is no simply because once mapped you don't have to mess up with it( except for polaris rmk wich are a joke basicaly!)
what we are developing is a boosted oem like ecu, so no need to mess around....but if you want you will be able to do so but BEWARE, your final results will be kinda funny!!unless you are a professional.
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So your ecu will match any type of turbo setups..?
I think all he's saying is you can't tune your timing and fuel on a control box and thats why they aren't that great. I do have a very good running turbo and find it hard to understand how I'm going to bolt on a stand alone ecu and make it so much better. but I've been around lots of different engines that were tuned with stand alone systems and it is the best way to do it, but that doesn't mean it's the only way or that the other ways don't work.
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Boyko
Well-known member
You should not be bashing the controller that are out there. The turbo builders have spent a lot of time to get there systems to work well and a part of this is the fuel controller they have been using.
There are going to be people who will want to learn to tune this system, you should not discourage them. It does data log…. right?
Sorry but you are coming across in kind of a rude way
Your most powerful tool on this forum is positive feedback from people that have used your product and have had dealings with you.
So far you are the only one that has posted anything on your ECU. Hopefully we will get some reviews on this thing when it gets to the mountains. A lot of turbo kits spend time at high altitude were they are needed. It is kind of hard to use up 300hp on a trail.
What happens if you use other parts on the engine than you used when making the "map" for it? Like clutching, y-pipe, weigth's, track... Wouldnt that engine need a different "map"?
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Rms Rydning
Well-known member
I`m used to tuned with SM4 and agree with you that not the average will be able to set it up and get it running.
You should have get mr Hall to be able to lock it all exept the fuelvalues.
A slighly change in clutching vill mess up the loads/rpm on midrange and do so the sled run lean or ritch if not you have covered the hole midrange with extensive mapping?
And I cant see how you can do all the tuning on a dyno?? We always get into real world experiences that you are not able to simulate on a dyno.
You might as well quit now if you are going to sell an ECU without the software or ability to tune, by the end user.
I sure hope you don't think that you and a single dyno can calibrate any turbo sled perfectly
There are endless combination of parts, and conditions to tune for, and it is impossible for a small company to get them all. Hell Arctic Cat has several guys working 40 to 80 hour weeks test riding, and a couple more doing the same on a dyno, plus the guys at suzuki, to tune their NA stuff, and they are still making improvements every single year..
You should be working at selling a stand alone ecu, (with a good base tune) and the ability for the customer to fine tune it for their combo/style/elevation/weather
I sure hope you don't think that you and a single dyno can calibrate any turbo sled perfectly
There are endless combination of parts, and conditions to tune for, and it is impossible for a small company to get them all. Hell Arctic Cat has several guys working 40 to 80 hour weeks test riding, and a couple more doing the same on a dyno, plus the guys at suzuki, to tune their NA stuff, and they are still making improvements every single year..
You should be working at selling a stand alone ecu, (with a good base tune) and the ability for the customer to fine tune it for their combo/style/elevation/weather
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I am no turbo guru and have limited understanding of standalone systems, fuel mapping, etc, but I hope for your sake and your investors sake that this works as well as you say it will work....personally, have my doubts, and it seems like we're always hearing "any day now", and only a few hours to tune on the mountains and you'll be done. Been hearing these things since Demcember and it is now Feburary.
Seems like a lot of variables, but again, I really don't know jack Sh#$.
I thought you had 2 different turbo manu that you working with? One drop out?
It's either CPC or Push Turbos.
Again, good luck and I'll be waiting to see if it works as well as you say, then I may be buying one. Hope ya get it out before the end of the season.
Seems like a lot of variables, but again, I really don't know jack Sh#$.
I thought you had 2 different turbo manu that you working with? One drop out?
It's either CPC or Push Turbos.
Again, good luck and I'll be waiting to see if it works as well as you say, then I may be buying one. Hope ya get it out before the end of the season.
Guys, I think some of you are a bit confused, and sort of dissapointed that you want be able to mess up a tuned ECU by yourself. Buy a fuelcontroller if this is more importent then riding. If "supraturbo" has hooked whit f.ex CPC. Then I`m sure they sell a turbo KIT whit this ECU. That should be a pull and go opportunity. Pick your boost level, pull and go. It`s like a stock sled. You don`t need to mess whit the ECU tuning on a stock sled, do you?
Look at MCX turbos on Yammies. They don`t comes whit a fuelcontroller for you to mess up. Don`t hear any yammi riders complining they don`t have the opportunity to mess up their map and burn the engine.
Wonder why a stock based race car just don`t use a piggy back fuel controller, instead of a standalone??? Boondocker should start making them for Supras also. Big market, and the need of expensive standalones are goone.
If you don`t fancy new tecnology, and some making an effort to get in our world also, go bakc to carbs and dynojets.
Look at MCX turbos on Yammies. They don`t comes whit a fuelcontroller for you to mess up. Don`t hear any yammi riders complining they don`t have the opportunity to mess up their map and burn the engine.
Wonder why a stock based race car just don`t use a piggy back fuel controller, instead of a standalone??? Boondocker should start making them for Supras also. Big market, and the need of expensive standalones are goone.
If you don`t fancy new tecnology, and some making an effort to get in our world also, go bakc to carbs and dynojets.
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product tester
Well-known member
supra I have to hand it to ya as I know how much work some thing like this is if you already have this working on the snow you have gone alot faster with this than I though you would I would love to see this tecknology hit the maket sooner than later but when it hits the market I want to see it working right not just working one day , it needs at least 1000 miles on the mountain under extrem conditions as I have watched alot of wizbang tunning components sound great but not work because of not enough testing or tweaking. I also can tell you limiting your self to one turbo manufacture will only hurt your ultamate goal. this is a small world but still the turbo craze is growing faster than anyone could have thought. and what you are doing is great but believe me you will need help from everyone in this bissness to make it right you can learn something that will help you from everyone in the bissness. Also I have learned that in this bissness you cant rely on what someone says it will do you have to see it do it for your self. then lay your money down.
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supraturbo
Banned
thanks for sharing your concerns. i will launch the product only when 100% satisfied with it.i can sell ecu for m1000 as of today ....but i won't ! i want to smoothen the fuel curve a bit on the engine dyno again because that thing want to rip your arms badly at 14 lbs boost. i want more of an "every rider like it" more than " it is too much for me " type of feeling when driving.
i am not sying it is perfection (ecu) but it is an ENORMOUS improvment over the piggy back fuel controller. again., i will not launch the ecu before i am 100% satified with it.
as far as my association with certain turbo maker, please do not take your deduction for the reality, i have no association as of today with cpc or push. i have tuned cpc kit for the m1000 but i am nowhere involved with them on the production or commercialisation of the standalone unit.....not for now anyway!
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supraturbo
Banned
i am 100% with you on this statment! but, i'm in a process of building and mapping the first 100% standalone for 2 strokes and a lot of you guys was skeptical about it and no one of you guys(turbo maker0 wanted to jump in( i have contacted 5 of you guys), now the tm1000 is on the snow for 5000 miles and i m receiving calls from everywhere....interesting. i agree with you would be better to team up with many of you guys......but i am a faithfull type of guy and i will let the ones who believed in me market the product first that is 100% sure......and i'm sure you understand why.
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supraturbo
Banned
x2
i don't understand the crazy fantasy about being able to tune e.f.i. on the mountain in the middle of nowhere when you can pull the rope and go??
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mynewuseddoo
Well-known member
Ha ha ha!!! I love how some people write their replies almost as though they feel threatened by this technology. This happens every time new technology is introduced in these forums. A guy starts a thread about an awesome project he is working on to try and help progress the sport we all love. As usual the nay sayers start at him with comments like "this is how it should be" and "it'll never work like that" and "the way you are testing is BS", blah blah blah.... People who are actualy dedicating their time, resources and money into projects like this should be given a pat on the back and encouragement, not negative comments or this is how it should be. Now tone can't be conveyed in text so don't take this post as I am furious or anything. I am actualy laughing as I type this because no matter where you go or what you do, change always scares people and johnny 2 cents is always around the corner just waiting to jump in and knock a guy, because Johnny 2 cents is a pro at everything don't cha know. Just ask yourselves what you or a buddy were saying when 2 stroke turbos were proposed...probably the same, less than possitive comments I have read in this thread. But now look where we are, 2 stroke turbos are rippin around everywhere and successfuly. This is simply the next evolution in turbo technology and I think we should welcome it. If people think they can do a better job then go and develop a similar product which is fully correct in your mind, two heads are better than one and competition drives the industry forward. If next year these products are blowing motors left and right then maybe there is a flaw and then look out!!! This forum is going to be a hot bed of rants LOL!!!!! I can see it now " I told you so damnit"!!! And I will be the bad guy for encouraging it with this post LOL!!!
It may be 2010 but the evolution of the snowmobile isn't over yet and just because we have technology that works doesn't mean that new technology can't be created that works better. I mean look at the evolution from carbs all the way to DPM technology on the Doo's. How many people removed the automatic altitude adjusting gear from their doo's and kept carrying jets up the mountain with them just because, in their mind, that was the best way. Well we all know where that lead to, their buddys rolling their eyes and wanting to continue on because their sleds were still running good after climbing 3000 feet. Then Fuel injection and finaly the E-tec and direct injection etc etc.....
So once again, Supra and Bolt, all the best of luck to your projects and get your real world testing done, and hopefuly this technology is going to be ready for next year. Also watch out on the comments like "a couple more weeks and it's gonna be ready" kinda stuff. If its not ready in that couple of weeks your just going to get flack. Unfortunately we live in a world where patients has grown thin.
To all the nay sayer's, if progresion is bad then I have seen some old Ski Doo Elan's on ebay for sale, good price too. LOL!!!
Oh and like it was mentioned earlier....Please get the M8 ironed out first!!!! LOL!!
It may be 2010 but the evolution of the snowmobile isn't over yet and just because we have technology that works doesn't mean that new technology can't be created that works better. I mean look at the evolution from carbs all the way to DPM technology on the Doo's. How many people removed the automatic altitude adjusting gear from their doo's and kept carrying jets up the mountain with them just because, in their mind, that was the best way. Well we all know where that lead to, their buddys rolling their eyes and wanting to continue on because their sleds were still running good after climbing 3000 feet. Then Fuel injection and finaly the E-tec and direct injection etc etc.....
So once again, Supra and Bolt, all the best of luck to your projects and get your real world testing done, and hopefuly this technology is going to be ready for next year. Also watch out on the comments like "a couple more weeks and it's gonna be ready" kinda stuff. If its not ready in that couple of weeks your just going to get flack. Unfortunately we live in a world where patients has grown thin.
To all the nay sayer's, if progresion is bad then I have seen some old Ski Doo Elan's on ebay for sale, good price too. LOL!!!
Oh and like it was mentioned earlier....Please get the M8 ironed out first!!!! LOL!!
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Rms Rydning
Well-known member
I have a buddy with a Apex MCX kit and as soon as we did any work on the clutching to get a better performing sled the midrange was way off...Why? That changed the load on the engine and he had to put a fuel box on it to controll the midrange. And IF this sled was with a MAF device that messured the acual air going into the engine and mapped right we wouldnt have got into this problems.
Non of the EFI sleds I know of are delivered any air volume messurment.
To solve this and be able to deliver a standalone that can work over a wider range of tuning you gona need a somekind of air flow/volume messurment.
But we also have a other problem with the 2 strokes that isnt on 4 strokes. The backpressure and it dosent mater if its Turboed og NA engine. It depends a lot on the backpressure and the hole state of tuning is going to change with this....
Standalone EFI is the way to go but having a locked map that is only gona work with 1 set up like OVS is not gona cover the work they are doing.
I feel they should think broader and deliver something with a base map and the right timing that works for the one who are able to tune the fuel with a AF.This way maybe they can get back the money invested.
The map OVS have is probably not gona work with Puch or Twister, but with slighly changes on the fuel delivery it will work for sure.
The main gain with a standalone is that you can make the timing perfect for turbo, witch it isnt on the stock ECU.
