Your Dynojet Questions are Answered!

[DynojetResearch]

Hello from Dynojet to all the SnoWest members!

I’d like to continue introducing myself as I did here, http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3086912#post3086912 and open up a Dynojet question and answer thread to everyone. Feel free to ask any question – I am here to help. Whether it’s a simple “Do you make a Power Commander for my machine” question, or a more involved tuning question, I’ll try to educate everyone about the products available from Dynojet.

By fielding questions you might have, it will enable us to assess where we could perhaps beef up an instruction manual to more easily guide users through operating a Power Commander system. If there is a specific feature that users would like to see offered or explained more, we can also shed light on those subjects. I’m open to any PM’s as well. We strive to be a customer driven company providing the products that users desire and assist them in their powersports tuning adventures.

I can start with one question and let things roll from there.

Q: How can a Power Commander add and subtract fuel?
A: The Power Commander (PCV) is a piggyback system which uses the ECU as its basis for any fueling. If there are all zero’s in the map, the ECU is fully running the sled, so the signal enters and exits of the PCV unchanged. This allows the ECU to continue making its normal adjustments for air pressure/temperature changes, or even apply trims due to changing coolant and exhaust temps. When numbers are inserted into the fuel tables, the signal enters the PCV which makes a specified percentage change to the signal and outputs the altered signal to the injectors. For example, if your machine is running at 5000RPM and 10% throttle with a normal duty cycle of say 15%, if you have a 10 in that cell of the map, the output duty cycle to the injectors will be 10% larger than 15 – resulting in 16.5%. The PCV can trim fuel down to minus 100% (meaning turn off the injector), and add fuel up to 250% or 2.5 times the input duty cycle.

Thanks to all and I’m excited to help in any way possible!

 

[mountainhorse]

Q1: What changes if any will you have in line for the Power Commander applications of the PC-V Pt in sleds... especially two stroke boosted applications?

Q2: Will you be implementing any of the closed-loop or partial closed loop functions for sleds?

Q3: Are there any Dynojet MAP or Baro sensor modules that can "plug/play" to help auto adjust a map based on air density/MAP? (pretty handy on a sled that can change altitude by over 6000" vert in any given riding day.

Q4: Have you been working at all on wiring harness to up the quality a bit... especially where it enters the controller?

Q5: What are the plans for integrating timing control in two-stroke sled applications... do you have plug-n-play options here?

Q6: What measures are you taking to make your units more forward compatible with the increasingly sensitive factory ECU's...they seem to be getting more "finicky" with any kind of "intercept boxes"

Q7: Lastly... What is the official position of Dynojet in using any of your Autotune modules in oil and/or lead rich exhaust streams of 2-cycle sled motors? (ie.. What direct claims do you make for the durability and accuracy of the lambda sensors in 2 stroke applications where oil and/or lead can be present in exhaust stream)

Great to see factory support on here.

BTW... What is your position at DynoJet?

 

[DynojetResearch]

Thanks MH for the interest!
My position at Dynojet is an R&D Engineer working right in the beautiful city of Bozeman. I work through all vehicles whether it be Harley, a RZR side by side, an ATV, or a snowmobile. I just happen to be the in-house sledhead with the biggest passion for snow sports, so I'll be doing the question answering on the sled forums.

Q1: What changes if any will you have in line for the Power Commander applications of the PC-V Pt, WB-2 and i in sleds... especially two stroke boosted applications?
A1: Changes within the PTi line (Pressure/Temperature Input) will be drastic for next season. We have added a feature to enable the the machine to automatically fuel for boost pressure on 2-Stroke sleds (4 strokes with MAP sensors do not need this added feature). These are shipping from here to Vegas and ready to be purchased by the public right Now. I ran a prototype of this Pressure Compensating PCV on my Aerocharged Polaris Pro all season with some arm stretching results.
There will be no changes for the Wideband 2.

Q2: Will you be implementing any of the closed-loop or partial closed loop functions for sleds?
A2: So far on any applications done on sleds, no machines have had a standard oxygen sensor in the exhaust, so no closed loop ECU applications have been found. If you are referring to our AutoTune feature where we can tune to a desired Air/Fuel ratio - yes any PCV is capable of tuning in closed loop. After inserting your desired air/fuel ratio into the table, while riding the PCV will automatically add or subtract fuel to operate at that specified ratio.

Q3: Are there any Dynojet MAP or Baro sensor modules that can "plug/play" to help auto adjust a map based on air density/MAP? (pretty handy on a sled that can change altitude by over 6000" vert in any given riding day.
Q3: It is hoped that the ECU is making changes correctly due to the air pressure change, and a standard PCV will function as it is should and simply follow this change lessening its duty cycle as a rider increases elevation.
However if more specific control over elevation changes is desired, the PTi line can function exactly as the altitude compensating module you are speaking of. While the ECU is still doing its own modification to correct for the changing elevation, the PCV-PTi can also follow this change in air pressure. This is done by leaving the MAP sensor exposed to the open air under your hood to sense the air change - exactly how the tube sticking out from under the Arctic Cat ECU does. If desired, a person would then create their standard fuel map based on %TP and RPM, and also employ a pressure table with adjustment values per PSI of ambient air.

Q4: Have you been working at all on wiring harness to up the quality a bit... especially where it enters the controller?
A4: The harnesses have changed slightly over the past few years. The wires were once encased in with vinyl tubing which was not as pliable and tougher to work with - whereas now they use an expandable mesh material to more easily conform through tight places while looking much more professional. When entering the controller, the harness is taped, covered with shrink tubing and the case filled with potting to create a sturdy entrance to the unit. This has been the same structure since I began working here last year.

Q5: What are the plans for integrating timing control in two-stroke sled applications... do you have plug-n-play options here?
A5: Incorporating timing control into 2 stroke sleds has been a very hot topic lately and we do plan to incorporate timing control into a plug-n-play PCV.

Q6: What measures are you taking to make your units more forward compatible with the increasingly sensitive factory ECU's...they seem to be getting more "finicky" with any kind of "intercept boxes"
A6: You are very correct that the OEM's and ECU makers are keeping tighter watch on anything intercepting a signal that is sent or received. Already, the PCV is highly modular with varying circuit boards inside the unit which are configured specifically for the vehicle it is installed on. The vehicles with finicky ECU's are models where we must alter the circuit components to keep the Check Engine light OFF. If the alterations to the components on the board are insufficient to make a fuel controller compatible - we will dig deeper and create new circuitry.

Q7: Lastly... What is the official position of Dynojet in using any of your Autotune modules in oil and/or lead rich exhaust streams of 2-cycle sled motors? (ie.. What direct claims do you make for the durability and accuracy of the lambda sensors in 2 stroke applications where oil and/or lead can be present in exhaust stream)
A7: I cannot provide you with an official position of Dynojet regarding these wideband sensors. According to the Bosch manufacturer, these sensors will run 80000 miles under ideal conditions. Of course adding lead/oil to the fuel mix degrades these sensors much faster....
I can at least provide our experience with these sensors -
1) I ran an Arctic Cat M8 Turbo running 50/50 Premium and AvGas for 3600 miles on the same sensor (and then sold the truly pull and go sled with zero problems). My AFR readings never jumped around or led me to believe that the sensor was failing.
2) That Same sensor I ran on my Arctic Cat went on my Pro when I began building it and rode for ~200 miles to see how it would behave. After that point, I installed a new sensor just to see how the readings might change -- and I saw absolutely the same AFR on my AEM gauge day after day. That sensor now is in my shop as a spare.
3) I built my father a 2010 Boondocker Turbo Arctic Cat M8 also with a wideband sensor - and he now has 2800 miles on his machine with that same sensor.
---I will note that how the sensor is installed is very key to their longevity. On my turbos, I utilize the HBX bung extender on each sled and also place the sensor in a near vertical orientation.
4) The super bike sponsored Race teams who run our AutoTune kit run their kits all season without changing the sensor. Some might change it just because, but never need to.
5) Our mobile dyno truck that travels around the nation uses one of these Wideband sensors. Throughout a whole year, this is changed once - sometimes twice even after countless vehicles running fuels ranging from premium, to methanol, to high octane race fuel.

Hopefully those answers might clear up a few of the burning questions many users have.

What other topics would you like to know about?? Keep 'em coming....

~T.J.

 

[4Z]

A5: Incorporating timing control into 2 stroke sleds has been a very hot topic lately and we do plan to incorporate timing control into a plug-n-play PCV.

~T.J.

OH YEAH!!!!!!!

 

[diamonddave]

Thank you for coming to the forum and answering all of MH's questions.

I have used your products for years and have always found the wiring and connectors, not to mention the overall unit to be of higher quality than some of the competition. Keep that up.

Timing control would be the cats meow imo, so that's encouraging. Any idea on when we could see that?

My other question would be the fueling adjustment's with a lap top required. On N/A sleds, Harley's, etc. this is not a big deal becuase 1 or 2 maps will cover you. However, with 2 stroke boost, it seems (at least) with the other controllers, periodic or multiple fuel adjustments throughout the day are necessary and carrying the lap top is kind of a pain. Is there anything being worked on right now or are there plans for the PC that will allow on-board fueling adjustments without the need for a lap top?

My other question would be are there any plans to develop anything for the E-TEC??

Thank you

Dave

 

[DynojetResearch]

Thank you for the comments diamonddave. I'm happy to offer any product support I can for the company. I will happily pass along the info regarding the quality you've seen within our wiring harnesses to our production team.

Timing control is in development and is being tested in house and by testers right now. I cannot yet provide a date as to when it will be available to the consumer market.

I hear your concerns about carrying a laptop while a person is riding and agree that it is a hassle at times. I have also seen that minor adjustments are necessary to the fuel mapping while in the field clear up some frequent bogs that pop up as the ride progresses. This is mostly due to elevation/temperature changes and how the ECU is fueling the machine - which all piggyback controllers are a slave to. The only option at this time to alter the fuel mapping on a PCV while in the field without a laptop exist through the LCD display. This accessory gives the user the option to tune coarse fuel adjustments in the LO, MD, and HI RPM regions of the map. This LCD display is a great tuning tool providing real-time gauges, data logging, map switching, and the popular coarse fuel adjustment that many people desire.

As it seems to be a popular topic of discussion, i'll point out that our new PCV-PTi for Arctic Cat and Polaris 2 Stroke boosted applications will be elevation compensating and is available now. This new unit will fuel your machine per pound of boost whether you're at sea level and no boost, or 10000 feet and 15 PSI of boost, or anywhere in between. It will follow this change in elevation and air pressure adjusting its fuel addition, thus pairing more effectively with the ECU. This compensation feature will eliminate the need to adjust the boost fuel mapping while in the field.

The E-Tec Power Commander is also in development.

Thanks again Dave!

~T.J.

 

[gmustangt]

TJ

Does the PCV-pti come with the ability to run extra injectors? As many sleds run out of fuel on the stock injectors at X boost.

 

[DynojetResearch]

gmustangt,

The PCV-PTi does not come with the ability to run extra injectors currently. In a very, very short time, this extra injector capability will be available for Polaris sleds needing the secondaries to fuel appropriately. These elevation compensating PCV-PTi's will be offered for the CFI2 engine only to start with. The connectors on the ends of the extra injector harness are spec'd to be either the Bosch EV1 or Bosch EV6 connection - as these were the two most common setups that we saw during development.
The Arctic Cat modules are slightly different than the Polaris CFI2 version because of how the ECU operates. This requires the fuel controller setup to contain a PCV to run the primary injectors and an SFM (Secondary Fuel Module) to run the secondary injectors. This setup was developed for the Dakota Performance Push Turbo kits several years ago. These are ready and available off the shelf.

Turbos running out of duty cycle on the injectors is a common problem that many tuners and builders experience. This problem is mitigated in several ways and kit builders can choose from any method they wish.
1) Add secondary injectors.
2) Increase the size of the primary injectors.
3) Add a fuel pressure regulator to increase the pressure of available fuel flow per pound of boost keeping the fuel vs air pressure ratio constant.
Keep in mind that the fuel pressure your machine is running is directly related to the resulting duty cycle that your injectors must run to provide enough fuel. I.e: a higher fuel pressure=a lower duty cycle required, and a lower fuel pressure=a higher duty cycle required to provide the same amount of fuel for a stoich ratio or below.

Thank you for the questions everyone!

~T.J.

 

[graham_r]

I hope this question has not all ready been asked. I have a 2012 M8 SLP set up. I ran a PCV last year. This year I am installing Wideband 2. Do i have to power wideband sepratly from the PCV? or does the CAN cable give it power? Also the wide band has a lot of wires coming out of it I am not sure if I need to use them. I think that the PCV will get all the data from the ECM. Thank you

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Q. Why did the PCIII lean out my sled to the point I had to crank the fuel pressure over 50psi to get it to idle. Or I had to add massive amounts of fuel in the low range with bd box to compensate and even cranked the low fuel setting on the PCIII. At first the result was a extreme lean senario that took out my inner mag side bearing on a 09 m1000 with 1400 miles. I'm no fool and tried every last little thing to make it work, even after the crank going down and resorted back to the bd box to keep from loosing another crank that cost me $2000. Which I am 99% sure would not have happened if it was not for the PCIII. There are also a few other m1000's that the answer was never answered why this happened. I think I'm the only one that had major failures and to this day I can duplicate the problem if you would like to answer it.
My answer
A. Don't buy a power commander.

Not riding for a month meant more than the $$$

 

[DynojetResearch]

Top_Secret,

The Wideband2 does need separate power from the PCV. The CAN cable does not provide power. The red wire should be attached to a 12V power wire, and the black wire to a chassis ground. The other wires on the side opposite the power/ground wires are for the wideband sensor harness itself.
For further clarification, Utilize the website as well for installation instructions at http://www.dynojetwb2.com/

WyoBoy1000,
I cannot speak directly to workings of the PCIIIUSB on the Arctic Cat's as they were before my time here. I do have yet to see a return unit from the M8 or M1000 that was causing users to have the issue you described. When attached to any machine, the Power Commander works only as a pass-through letting the ECU signal pass to the injectors unmodified. Until trims are added within software or by utilizing the buttons, the control boxes do not alter sled operations.
Also, each LED on the exterior of the PCIIIUSB only equates to 2% fuel change. Maxing out the +5 LED's ends up as a 10% total fuel change - which on an input duty cycle of say 5% at idle gives an output of 5.5%. Very little fuel addition would be occurring at idle/low throttle positions without accessing control center and inserting values.
If you still have your unit that was giving you troubles, please do return it to us so we can see if there is an issue within it or if it is mis-configured for the Arctic Cat.

~T.J.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

lol, good response, I know exactly how it works and spent lots of time trying, I'll have to dig it out and send it just to see if you can figure it out and I know there are a few others as of the last time I knew still wondering the same thing even after they sent it in and everything else. Even though I'm not real found of them know I will go after as much info as possible and if nothing else get a good laugh.

 

[diamonddave]

Over the past 3 seasons, I've seen more M1000's coming out behind a rope for motor failure's than all other sleds combined. For whatever reason, in our area, the M1000 motor has issues.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Over the past 3 seasons, I've seen more M1000's coming out behind a rope for motor failure's than all other sleds combined. For whatever reason, in our area, the M1000 motor has issues.

Yes and most of them are from mods and ppl not knowing what they are doing. I even went through that with my 07 and learned my lesson. Unfortunately when the PCIII caused a massive lean condition I didn't have what I needed to run without it so I compromised with cranking the fuel psi, I still never let the egts go above 1240* but the problem was the low end, without enough fuel to carry the oil and soak the bottom end like I had it with the BD box it only took one ride and 2 miles into the next. Trust me, I know, If you have spent any time in the cat section you know I'm one of few that anyone can trust when modding a m1000.
Weird thing was the fuel seemed like it did add a little on top but didn't really lean it out from stock, Don't know, maybe the tps was slightly on the outside of a tolerance but everything I tried there was no fixing it.

 

[graham_r]

Got it figured.
Thank You

 

[HOOCH256]

I have a Q...

I'm going to be running a '12 PC M8 with full speedwerx set up and a PCV, now if I decide to put an autoTune on it, will it gain me anything?

Q2....
Also next year planning on running a big bore but everyone who makes the big bores uses BD boxes or doughBeck style boxes, so if I wanna use my PCV with autoTune will it make it's own tune by setting my target A/F ratio? I am somewhat familiar with the PCIII &V as I run them on my street and race bikes!


Sent from my super duper sweet iPhone using Tapatalk when I should be doing something productive!

 

[DynojetResearch]

Top_Secret,
Glad to be of assistance. I hope that your machine treats you well this season.

HOOCH256,
On your 2012 M8, adding the Autotune accessory to your PCV will technically gain you no additional HP. However, it will enable you to set your air/fuel ratio to a desired value at all places in the map. If, by chance, the map loaded into your PCV is slightly off at any point, the Autotune will trim the fueling to meet the specified AFR. This cleans up any random boggy spot thus making it feel like more HP - even though the drive-ability is the main factor that will improve.

The PCV will easily meet your fueling needs when adding a big bore. Running with the Autotune will make it all the more easy to have your map created on the fly. The process would be the same - set your AFR numbers, go ride at those constant throttles to allow the PCV and Autotune to trim the fueling appropriately, accept all those new trimmed values, and done. You can even take the Autotune off and move it from machine to machine to build maps for your friends. Or, leave it on to ensure that your sled is always at that proper AFR.
Depending on the size of the added cc's of your big bore, I would recommend having a rough starting map loaded (insert 15's across the table) so the Autotune doesn't need to try to add massive amounts of fuel to get the AFR close. In fact, the Autotune has an internal safe guard which prevents it from trimming more that + - 20% until the Accept All Trims function is performed.

Thank you for your questions and for using our products on the snow and the streets!!

~T.J.

 

[HOOCH256]

Thank you for the answers and they were exactly what I was looking for!


Sent from my super duper sweet iPhone using Tapatalk when I should be doing something productive!

 

[aebsledder]

dyno jet rider

Just in case some of you were wondering...T.J. not only is a very skilled tuner, but also a REALLY good rider. I have had the pleasure of riding with him a few times and he definitely knows how to push his sled to it's limits. The few times I have rode with him his sled has run flawlessly as well. This is an unsolicited comment by the way, I had no idea he even worked for DynoJet before I saw this post. I think if the Snowest community can manage to stay constructive in their posts we will have an excellent resource here. Thanks for posting...

 

[the_hog]

When are you going to release an PC Android app, so us PC users can load maps/tune from an Android phone or tablet? Would make it much easier than packing a laptop along if want to tune on the mountain or wherever you are riding.