So strapping it to the hood of my truck would be classified as a little much???
Wolves!
- Thread starter CCRider
- Start date
I'm not going to claim I really know anything about this. I surely don't understand why they would introduce the species in an area it never inhabited prior.
That being said. We as humans are pushing further into nature every day. We are taking homes away from their rightful owners. I've seen communities start to shoot deer because there were too many of them. The deer were a nuisance and eating peoples precious landscaping. Oh, those vicious deer must be delt with.
Nature has always had it's own system of checks and balances. Kill off all the wolves and see what happens. Deer and elk populations will swell. As stated above. Hunters will surely be happy with an increase in available license.
However, there is always someone to take their place next in line. Suddenly you have an increased coyote population that hunts in packs when they never did before. So now we complain about coyotes. Or mountain lions will increase territory over 100 miles to systematically fill the void. Predators establish territories around each other. With the absence of one predator another will move into its place. You think a wolf is vicious? Wander into a mountain lions lair some time.
My point is that we constantly complain no matter what the situation. We fail to acknowledge that nature is in charge. We just think the answer is to always kill everything. It can't possibly be our own fault that wolves keep hanging around even though we just put a new home on there territory without asking.
Sorry, rant over. I used to live in such an area. I couldn't understand how we never looked at ourselves at fault.
That being said. We as humans are pushing further into nature every day. We are taking homes away from their rightful owners. I've seen communities start to shoot deer because there were too many of them. The deer were a nuisance and eating peoples precious landscaping. Oh, those vicious deer must be delt with.
Nature has always had it's own system of checks and balances. Kill off all the wolves and see what happens. Deer and elk populations will swell. As stated above. Hunters will surely be happy with an increase in available license.
However, there is always someone to take their place next in line. Suddenly you have an increased coyote population that hunts in packs when they never did before. So now we complain about coyotes. Or mountain lions will increase territory over 100 miles to systematically fill the void. Predators establish territories around each other. With the absence of one predator another will move into its place. You think a wolf is vicious? Wander into a mountain lions lair some time.
My point is that we constantly complain no matter what the situation. We fail to acknowledge that nature is in charge. We just think the answer is to always kill everything. It can't possibly be our own fault that wolves keep hanging around even though we just put a new home on there territory without asking.
Sorry, rant over. I used to live in such an area. I couldn't understand how we never looked at ourselves at fault.
B
bullfrog123
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Hey monty--- Wanna try explaining that to my cousin's 4 yr old daughter who's dog was taken out by wolves last yr?? Or to my buddy who had 6 of em 15' from his daughter in his front yard??? Or to counless others who have lost pets and livestock.
Nature, govn't, or greenies are doing NOTHING to balance the the population of wolves around here. It's not that we as society are encroaching into "their" land that is forcing wolves into populated areas. It's the "no fear" attitude of wolves, and our inability to do anything to deter them.
Our native Timber Wolves were here long before the Grey wolf was brought in, and they stayed away and minded their business because they learned to avoid humans.
Not wanting to pic a fight, but this is my opinion.
Nature, govn't, or greenies are doing NOTHING to balance the the population of wolves around here. It's not that we as society are encroaching into "their" land that is forcing wolves into populated areas. It's the "no fear" attitude of wolves, and our inability to do anything to deter them.
Our native Timber Wolves were here long before the Grey wolf was brought in, and they stayed away and minded their business because they learned to avoid humans.
Not wanting to pic a fight, but this is my opinion.
Try living and working in a area where the wolves not only eat the elk, but your cattle also. And you cannot do a DAMN thing about it.
Following pictures are some of my bred heifers from 2007.
I say if the tree huggers want them, they can have them in THEIR state. Not ours. If I personally impacted somebodys way of life and living like they do mine, I would be in jail. And if you come and say that this is nature's doing, you are a FOOL! It is nothing more then piss poor management by our local FWP.
Following pictures are some of my bred heifers from 2007.
I say if the tree huggers want them, they can have them in THEIR state. Not ours. If I personally impacted somebodys way of life and living like they do mine, I would be in jail. And if you come and say that this is nature's doing, you are a FOOL! It is nothing more then piss poor management by our local FWP.
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The argument will definately always be 2 sided. Usually the "leave them alone" side comes from those who do not live with them. The analogy of cats and coyotes is not really great, they do not even compare out here. Wolves are one of the few critters that kill for what seems to be no reason (thrill kill), and it is having devistating affects on our environment here. This is an area that did not have this kind of wolf in the past. This was brought on with absolutly no say from the community and that is a big part of why we are so upset. I can assure you that if the wolves were not affecting the state and surrounding states in such a negative way then we would not be so driven to kill them off. The meatheads that introduced the wolves into this area did not give nature time to arrange a good method for them to co exist here....yes nature does work these things out. If a mosquito is biting you, you will slap it. These animals are a huge threat and need to be removed.
hey monte until something is done about people cranking out babies which we can't do much about we are going to have wilderness encrouchment. next best predator control unfortunaly that hasn't worked largely because of the bleeding heart greenies for thier own self interest and no common sence. i have yet to see a elk or deer kill just for fun. we are being invaded by KILLER ALIENS. our food source is being wiped out not to mention millions of dollars in revenue brought in by sportsmen which some goes back into our wildlife programs.
Well said, I wasn't trying to start argument with anyone. Nor was I denying that they are a problem. Wolves act as a well organized community. And can be very dangerous as such. As storytellin stated they were introduced into an area that they were never indigenous to. And this never should have happened. I was only stating what I've seen in the past. More precisely the Black Hills where I used to live.
The government spent a ton of money a hundred years ago on bounties,trapping, and poisening to get rid of wolves.
Why in the F they were reintroduced with government money makes my blood boil.
Why in the F they were reintroduced with government money makes my blood boil.
Gees, I was never trying to argue with anyone. Just giving some insight. Trying to help people see a larger picture. I've had close friends who worked with the forest service. It's scary what some of these animals can do. I know the situation there is much different than what was happening in the Black Hills. I was only giving another example of what can happen. Please forgive me for trying to enlighten anyone. Yes, I'm the bad guy please focus your disgust towards me. That will surely help your wolf problem. 
Gees, I was never trying to argue with anyone. Just giving some insight. Trying to help people see a larger picture. I've had close friends who worked with the forest service. It's scary what some of these animals can do. I know the situation there is much different than what was happening in the Black Hills. I was only giving another example of what can happen. Please forgive me for trying to enlighten anyone. Yes, I'm the bad guy please focus your disgust towards me. That will surely help your wolf problem.
sorry didn't mean to argue just ment to enlighten to many people just don't understand
Monte,
One thing that you need to realize is that the West is not like MN. First of all, most of the land out here is public land (Custer County, Idaho where I grew up is around 92% public land) , so the growth of communities and homes is limited to the small amount of private land. Our encroachment into nature is greatly limited to this fact. For the most part, if new houses are going up, it is because some rancher has sold a portion of his spread, not because we just deciced to throw up a home in the middle of nowhere. The "righful owner" in this case was the rancher, and now is the homeowner.
Also, here in the West, we are not overrun by deer. Muley are the predominate species and they are not as smart, nor as adaptable as the whities. For the most part, we have a healthy population of deer, but they are not overpopulated. Also, the wolves seem to prefer the elk to the deer.
The last thing that you need to realize is that nature does not exist in a vacuum. Everything that we do impacts nature and there is no getting around this fact. We could let the wolves and the deer/elk come into a natural balance, but what would happen if we continued to have a big game season? I will tell you what - we would virtually eliminate deer an elk populations from large swaths of thier existing habitiat. They could not withstand the combined pressure from both humans and wolves. The state game departments would then have to curtail all hunting (thereby eliminating their main source of income).
In other words, big game hunting would have to come to a complete stop in order to have this balance. This will kill small towns here in the west that thrive on these seasons and the money hunters bring in.
Also, if wolves are "in balance" with their prey, some of wolves will be starving due to the lack of prey. However, they will not just sit back and die. They will start to look for other opportunties. You will see an marked increased depredation on cattle, pets and other forms of "game" that would supplant thier diet. In order for them to live they will be forced closer to humans. Just remember, a hungry wolve on the brink of starvation is a dangerous wolf.
Due to these issues wolves MUST be managed as any other game animal. A small and healthy populaiton of wolves will not be a big problem. However, it will not be acceptable to just let the wolves run wild and do as they please due to the consequences concerning our big game populations and the money it provides to the state and to these small towns.
One thing that you need to realize is that the West is not like MN. First of all, most of the land out here is public land (Custer County, Idaho where I grew up is around 92% public land) , so the growth of communities and homes is limited to the small amount of private land. Our encroachment into nature is greatly limited to this fact. For the most part, if new houses are going up, it is because some rancher has sold a portion of his spread, not because we just deciced to throw up a home in the middle of nowhere. The "righful owner" in this case was the rancher, and now is the homeowner.
Also, here in the West, we are not overrun by deer. Muley are the predominate species and they are not as smart, nor as adaptable as the whities. For the most part, we have a healthy population of deer, but they are not overpopulated. Also, the wolves seem to prefer the elk to the deer.
The last thing that you need to realize is that nature does not exist in a vacuum. Everything that we do impacts nature and there is no getting around this fact. We could let the wolves and the deer/elk come into a natural balance, but what would happen if we continued to have a big game season? I will tell you what - we would virtually eliminate deer an elk populations from large swaths of thier existing habitiat. They could not withstand the combined pressure from both humans and wolves. The state game departments would then have to curtail all hunting (thereby eliminating their main source of income).
In other words, big game hunting would have to come to a complete stop in order to have this balance. This will kill small towns here in the west that thrive on these seasons and the money hunters bring in.
Also, if wolves are "in balance" with their prey, some of wolves will be starving due to the lack of prey. However, they will not just sit back and die. They will start to look for other opportunties. You will see an marked increased depredation on cattle, pets and other forms of "game" that would supplant thier diet. In order for them to live they will be forced closer to humans. Just remember, a hungry wolve on the brink of starvation is a dangerous wolf.
Due to these issues wolves MUST be managed as any other game animal. A small and healthy populaiton of wolves will not be a big problem. However, it will not be acceptable to just let the wolves run wild and do as they please due to the consequences concerning our big game populations and the money it provides to the state and to these small towns.
Gees, I was never trying to argue with anyone. Just giving some insight. Trying to help people see a larger picture. I've had close friends who worked with the forest service. It's scary what some of these animals can do. I know the situation there is much different than what was happening in the Black Hills. I was only giving another example of what can happen. Please forgive me for trying to enlighten anyone. Yes, I'm the bad guy please focus your disgust towards me. That will surely help your wolf problem.
Now you know that this is a very hot issue for most of us Westerners. We did not want the wolves in the first place but they were shoved down our thoat, anyways. We knew what was going to happen but all of the greenies and the government assured everyone that once they hit a population of 300 that they would be considered recovered and they would be delisted.
Now we have over 1500 wolves and the dam things are still listed due to the incessent lawsuits from the enviros and a panty-waist judge in Montana. Out elk herds are crashing in several spots (elk permits were slashed in half last year in all 3 hunting units where I grew up and still sucess rates fell through the floor), livestock depredations keep increasing every year and we are just supposed to sit there and watch.
In short, take this in as a learning opportunity and just remember that this is a huge issue for us westerners. Many of us stand to loose our hunting opportunities and even our livelyhood due to these damn thing if nothing is done.
I am an enviornmentalist, and a hunter. I do what I can to help the game and fish that I use to survive on. I am not interested in killing every wolf out there, but like the coyote, the wolf is a very coy and efficient hunter. they do not have to kill every elk they cross, they can just run it today and tomarrow, and with the lw nutrient available that elk will be next weeks dinner.
reintroduction is a touchy subject with me, especially pack hunters which are protected. this is not some elusive sheep, or a rare caribou, it is a time perfected killing machine which has been given free rights by the gov't. where does the wolf lie in the food chain?....at the top, with only humans above it. I feel we really did not need to re intro them and have completely failed in cotroling the population of them. I would not give you a canadien quarter for a ID hunting license this year....it's getting that bad.
I have spent many winters shooting coyotes in an effort to keep the numbers in check and make it semi possible for phesant/huns to carry over. there have been single sections of land that I have killed 2-3 a week for months on end.....they just keep coming......much like the wolf.
anyone wanting to see wolves and tracks needs only to ride from lookout to avery. you have to be blind to not see wolf sign.
reintroduction is a touchy subject with me, especially pack hunters which are protected. this is not some elusive sheep, or a rare caribou, it is a time perfected killing machine which has been given free rights by the gov't. where does the wolf lie in the food chain?....at the top, with only humans above it. I feel we really did not need to re intro them and have completely failed in cotroling the population of them. I would not give you a canadien quarter for a ID hunting license this year....it's getting that bad.
I have spent many winters shooting coyotes in an effort to keep the numbers in check and make it semi possible for phesant/huns to carry over. there have been single sections of land that I have killed 2-3 a week for months on end.....they just keep coming......much like the wolf.
anyone wanting to see wolves and tracks needs only to ride from lookout to avery. you have to be blind to not see wolf sign.
Yeah, sorry guys. Wasn't trying to cause a stir. What I was stating happened within my lifetime while I was living in the Black Hills. It's only sorta west. But most of it is forest service land.
I was in no way trying to belittle your problems. We can't keep the world from growing. But nature will tend to fight back occasionally. Unfortunately, these wolves obviously didn't belong there in the first place. Something will obviously need to be done as this sounds as it is becoming a safety concern.
My experience was only stating what happened when wolves were completely wiped out. Your area certainly may not have mountain lions. They turned out to be much more aggressive towards humans. A real problem when their territory spanned an area that crossed many public trails and homes.
Cheers to all of you and good luck in your plight.
But most of it is forest service land. I was in no way trying to belittle your problems. We can't keep the world from growing. But nature will tend to fight back occasionally. Unfortunately, these wolves obviously didn't belong there in the first place. Something will obviously need to be done as this sounds as it is becoming a safety concern.
My experience was only stating what happened when wolves were completely wiped out. Your area certainly may not have mountain lions. They turned out to be much more aggressive towards humans. A real problem when their territory spanned an area that crossed many public trails and homes.
Cheers to all of you and good luck in your plight.
And the greenies cant phathom why AK controls the wolf populations the way we do.
Yeah, sorry guys. Wasn't trying to cause a stir. What I was stating happened within my lifetime while I was living in the Black Hills. It's only sorta west.
I was in no way trying to belittle your problems. We can't keep the world from growing. But nature will tend to fight back occasionally. Unfortunately, these wolves obviously didn't belong there in the first place. Something will obviously need to be done as this sounds as it is becoming a safety concern.
My experience was only stating what happened when wolves were completely wiped out. Your area certainly may not have mountain lions. They turned out to be much more aggressive towards humans. A real problem when their territory spanned an area that crossed many public trails and homes.
Cheers to all of you and good luck in your plight.
No need to apologize. Now you know the story. That is the big problem - most folks just don't know and just assumes that we want to kill them all just for the pleasure of it or to assert our need to control nature. Nothing if further from the truth. Most of us love nature and we believe that we can also be a part of it.
As a clarification, wolves are native to the west, but they were poisoned out back in the 30s and 40 because they are a major threat to livestock, especially sheep. A pack of wolves have been known to kill 50 or 60 sheep in one spree. Normally, sheep are just looking for an excuse to die anyway, but something tends to go haywire when wolves get into a flock of sheep. I guess the killing instinct just takes over. Great Pyranese guard dogs offer little protection and usually end up just as dead as the sheep. Some folks are now even trying "guard llamas". They end up at room temperature also.
We also have mountian lions, bears, coyotes, and bobcats here (and a pretty good number of them too). They are very rarely a real problem because they all have hunting seasons on them. The populations are managed just like other big game and that keeps them pretty respectful of people. Wolves have no season, and by some folks account, don't really have a fear of people. I will bet that changes once they start getting smoked.
M
mtn_extreme
Well-known member
No need to apologize. Now you know the story. That is the big problem - most folks just don't know and just assumes that we want to kill them all just for the pleasure of it or to assert our need to control nature. Nothing if further from the truth. Most of us love nature and we believe that we can also be a part of it.
As a clarification, wolves are native to the west, but they were poisoned out back in the 30s and 40 because they are a major threat to livestock, especially sheep. A pack of wolves have been known to kill 50 or 60 sheep in one spree. Normally, sheep are just looking for an excuse to die anyway, but something tends to go haywire when wolves get into a flock of sheep. I guess the killing instinct just takes over. Great Pyranese guard dogs offer little protection and usually end up just as dead as the sheep. Some folks are now even trying "guard llamas". They end up at room temperature also.
We also have mountian lions, bears, coyotes, and bobcats here (and a pretty good number of them too). They are very rarely a real problem because they all have hunting seasons on them. The populations are managed just like other big game and that keeps them pretty respectful of people. Wolves have no season, and by some folks account, don't really have a fear of people. I will bet that changes once they start getting smoked.
I can validate this with a personal loss last fall during hunting season. I was bowhunting in an area where there is a sheep stock driveway and the sheep herd comes by my camp every year. I have become friends with the basque sheep herders and they look forward to staying one evening every year in the meadow that I camp in. I have (had) a companion brittany that I always took up with me to keep me company in camp. She knew the area was friends with the sheepdogs. Well, this year as the sheep herd kept getting closer as they were coming off the mountain, I was noticing considerably more wolf howls at night than in past years. This was varified when I communicated with the sheepherder as he told me many more wolves skurting his herd than before. Said he was loosing 6-8 sheep a week.
Long story short - While out hunting, my brittany slipped her collar and headed over to play with her sheepdog friend. She was intercepted by the wolf pack and I found her remains 3 days later scattered through-out the woods.
The introduction of the wolf was supposed to be restricted to the wilderness area as the original proposal was written. Many of us here feel that any wolf outside of the wilderness boundries should be considered a preditor and delt with accordingly. We understand there are those that are fighting for wolf existance and we can support that, but it surely seems unfair that those same poeple cannot compromise and give us the rights to keep them where they will not harm anything.
Peace - out!!
Ha, just checking the good ol' liberal Boise rag and I see that the IDFG has a study that came out today that says that they are currently loosing about $24 Million a year due to the wolves. Remember, this is the money that ends up supporting the vast majority of wildlife and habitat programs in the state.
Read for yourselves: http://www.idahostatesman.com/531/story/674362.html
And I agree mtn_extreme. I have a cousin and a good friend that both run hounds after bear and cougar. They have both lost dogs to wolves (althought when you have hounds, that kind of thing is an occupational hazard).
Read for yourselves: http://www.idahostatesman.com/531/story/674362.html
And I agree mtn_extreme. I have a cousin and a good friend that both run hounds after bear and cougar. They have both lost dogs to wolves (althought when you have hounds, that kind of thing is an occupational hazard).
M
mtn_extreme
Well-known member
as a good friend stated about just this issue :
And just for you pro-wolf lurkers who peruse this site for out-of-context venom to spew, I've cut and pasted my comment here in case you missed it at the bottom of the newspaper article:
"This lost revenue is money that helps ALL wildlife and habitat concerns- it's no secret that F&G revenues pay for a lot more than deer and elk- these fees finance habitat restoration and myriad other projects that benefit both game and non-game species in Idaho.
It's ironic that the "pro-wolf" movement is indirectly hurting a large gamut of wildlife concerns- likely even the very wolves the movement believes it is itself helping."
And just for you pro-wolf lurkers who peruse this site for out-of-context venom to spew, I've cut and pasted my comment here in case you missed it at the bottom of the newspaper article:
"This lost revenue is money that helps ALL wildlife and habitat concerns- it's no secret that F&G revenues pay for a lot more than deer and elk- these fees finance habitat restoration and myriad other projects that benefit both game and non-game species in Idaho.
It's ironic that the "pro-wolf" movement is indirectly hurting a large gamut of wildlife concerns- likely even the very wolves the movement believes it is itself helping."
Exactly. Lets see if ol' Ralhie Maughan picks this up and links to it in his website. I highly doubt it. Instead they will be expressing their collective outrage over a coyote hunt tounament in Challis.
Here, if you want to go read something that is truely pathetic, just take a little time to read this garbage: http://wolves.wordpress.com/2009/02...-condemn-challis-coyote-killing-“tournament”/
Make sure to read the comments.
