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Who doesn't use avalanche gear.

Biggest Fear

Biggest fear -


Is the trip to the parking lot and the trip back.


Here in Idaho we have a little stretch of road called Avalanche Alley. We drive thru this nightmare on the way to ride.


I wonder if the Snow Plow drivers wear a Beacons ?


Slick Roads no guard rails.


Been riding 30+ years.


We now have better equipment, Mother Nature is the same.
 
My question to the guys who don't carry-at the bare minimum- a beacon and you actually do have a slide catch someone in your group, or you come up on another group that had someone buried .. .and you gotta fumble around searching blind because your too damn smart or intelligent or strong or brave or macho or poor or disorganized or don't ride there in those conditions . . ...when that happens how ya gonna feel? ...all the while the person buried is wishing everybody on the frikken mountain had a beacon and was looking for him. .or her..





Good luck saving the stupid from themselves. If someone form another group had an avy issue, oh well, you think I am losing sleep over it? Do you cry when you pass car accidents too? They call it natural selection, or maybe it was just their time to go...


You also falsely assume that your gear, or your buddies gear will save you IF it happens. Lots and lots of avy victims die from the trauma, then your beacon is just a body recovery tool...


Why is it so hard to participate in avy classes then apply what you have learned on the hill to avoid the bad places. It is like some of you just can't muster any self control... Staying away is EASY. I am not sure why some of you think it is just impossible...
 
Good luck saving the stupid from themselves. If someone form another group had an avy issue, oh well, you think I am losing sleep over it? Do you cry when you pass car accidents too? They call it natural selection, or maybe it was just their time to go...


You also falsely assume that your gear, or your buddies gear will save you IF it happens. Lots and lots of avy victims die from the trauma, then your beacon is just a body recovery tool...


Why is it so hard to participate in avy classes then apply what you have learned on the hill to avoid the bad places. It is like some of you just can't muster any self control... Staying away is EASY. I am not sure why some of you think it is just impossible...
So you have taken avy classes and they advised you to just stay out of trouble. No need for beacons and shovels? Or are you so in tune with nature after your whole 10 years of riding and never seeing any Avalanche ever.
 
I like the opinions, either way the discussion is great. Where we ride, there is no question the gear provides us better options in the event we make a mistake. Avy gear is useless if you don't educate yourself and practice, it also doesn't prevent bad decisions. In some cases it may provide confidence when there shouldn't be any. As many have stated.

I will wear my beacon, check it in the parking lot, verify battery life remaining every day before I go out and ride. I will wear my shovel and probe on my back for access if I get the opportunity. I also have an avy bag. None of these take place of educated decisions.

I wouldn't expect someone in a ski resort to wear the same gear as the risks are mostly mitigated. Same as I wouldn't expect someone who rides flat land to have a beacon. Doesn't mean it's not useful, just not necessarily required (I am sure someone can think of a reason and more power to them, I would probably wear it all out of habit). But being educated on the dangers is by far the best you can do for yourself. Most people, once educated, feel that the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks and choose to go with avy gear. I won't ride without it, nor will I ride with people who don't have it. This is as much for me as it is them.

I am also that guy who wears safety glasses at work, earplugs, etc. I enjoy life.
 
Originally Posted by OrangeKowJumper View Post
My question to the guys who don't carry-at the bare minimum- a beacon and you actually do have a slide catch someone in your group, or you come up on another group that had someone buried .. .and you gotta fumble around searching blind because your too damn smart or intelligent or strong or brave or macho or poor or disorganized or don't ride there in those conditions . . ...when that happens how ya gonna feel? ...all the while the person buried is wishing everybody on the frikken mountain had a beacon and was looking for him. .or her..

Same way that I felt when I was prepared, and the guy died in spite of all that I did.
 
Sounds like we can all agree that education is the most important step and, after that, everything is supplemental with incremental reduction in risk.

For me, I will take these easy steps to further increase the POSSIBILITY of improving the odds of survival of the friends and family that I ride with; not to mention my own. I, and all those I ride with, choose to better those odds. Having all our safety gear and having training absolutely does NOT make us ride riskier conditions than if we did not have the gear. No more than I drive more recklessly because I wear a seatbelt or ride my motorcycles recklessly because I have on a helmet (and armored boots, jacket and pants).

The analogy of using a seatbelt is a bit different than having transceivers, etc. because a seatbelt, or a motorcycle helmet, for example, only protects you and not those around you (except for the emotions your loved ones would encounter from your death or injury); a seatbelt is a better analogy for an Avy Backpack. Transceivers/probe/shovel, and knowing how to use them, are equally to improve survivability of those around you as they are to improve your survivability. That is a major difference between transceiver/probe/shovel and a seat belt, motorcycle helmet, avy backpack, etc.; the potential beneficial impact to others.

If you don't want to wear a seatbelt when you drive or a motorcycle helmet, yes I think that is unwise, but in the end, it really only impacts you (and your loved ones). It does not save me or my loved ones if you get into a wreck with them.

In the groups with which my wife and I ride, the primary reason we have transceivers is to HELP THOSE AROUND US. It's about caring enough for them, or for strangers that we happen upon, to help. Yes there are situation where all the safety gear is used and someone still dies, but that is not reasonable justification to not even bother. It just MIGHT save, or reduce severity of injury to, someone.

For such a small cost, almost everyone I know has chosen to have the equipment (on top of having already attended training) and as important, encourage those around them to attend the training and gear up.

Perhaps the best thing to do is focus on encouraging folks to attend training even more so that buying gear. For one, training is the most important part. Secondly, I've not met anyone that went to a good, two day training course and came away still thinking safety gear was "optional" or "not needed because now I'm trained". Training drives home the need for the gear.

For those that want to stick with the seatbelt or helmet analogy...it seems that no matter how safe one drives or rides (by avoiding unsafe driving conditions like driving at night or in the rain or snow which is similar to avoiding dangerous terrain or conditions when snowmobiling), one generally will still wear your seat belt or helmet. Why? Because of the unforeseen situations. Avoiding the most obvious driving risks above, you can still get hit by another driver, have an animal run out in front of you, etc. Hence the seat belt or motorcycle helmet. Being a great driver, or rider, or knowing where and when "not to go" regarding avy terrain is not always going to keep you out of trouble. There are those time where you, or someone you are with, might make that momentarily, but monumental, bad choice despite training. Same with other groups you may come upon that got into trouble knowingly or unknowingly.

For us and most of the riders we know, there really wasn't a decision process on this one at all. It seems intuitive that when one gets interested in sledding in the mountains, you get training and wear safety gear.

For our part, we'll just keep pushing training since the safety gear will follow.

Please, please, please attend an avy training course that includes not only a day of in-class instruction but a day of training in the field. And encourage those around you (they just might save your skin someday).
Thank you!
 
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TO The OP..... How about instead of worrying about what your buddies think or do, YOU get a beacon and start wearing it.
Should you ever find yourself in a situation that requires a beacon... you have it! Whether it be to find someone else... or for somebody to find YOU !!!! At least if you have one... there is an option.


Best case scenario... you never need to use it.
 
So you have taken avy classes and they advised you to just stay out of trouble. No need for beacons and shovels? Or are you so in tune with nature after your whole 10 years of riding and never seeing any Avalanche ever.



Did I say any of that? Nice try at sensationalizing it...


I have taken avy courses. They advise you to carry the gear. I have seen plenty of avalanches but I choose not to ride where they slide. There is TONS of terrain to ride that I find very entertaining without having to go into avy terrain.


Why is that so hard to believe?
 
If you actually knew what you were doing in avalanche terrain you would know that there is nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks they know all there is to know...



Where did anyone claim to know it all? I certainly didn't... another pathetic attempt to really bring some emotion into it! Congratulations...
 
Sounds like we can all agree that education is the most important step and, after that, everything is supplemental with incremental reduction in risk.

For me, I will take these easy steps to further increase the POSSIBILITY of improving the odds of survival of the friends and family that I ride with; not to mention my own. I, and all those I ride with, choose to better those odds. Having all our safety gear and having training absolutely does NOT make us ride riskier conditions than if we did not have the gear. No more than I drive more recklessly because I wear a seatbelt or ride my motorcycles recklessly because I have on a helmet (and armored boots, jacket and pants).

The analogy of using a seatbelt is a bit different than having transceivers, etc. because a seatbelt, or a motorcycle helmet, for example, only protects you and not those around you (except for the emotions your loved ones would encounter from your death or injury); a seatbelt is a better analogy for an Avy Backpack. Transceivers/probe/shovel, and knowing how to use them, are equally to improve survivability of those around you as they are to improve your survivability. That is a major difference between transceiver/probe/shovel and a seat belt, motorcycle helmet, avy backpack, etc.; the potential beneficial impact to others.

If you don't want to wear a seatbelt when you drive or a motorcycle helmet, yes I think that is unwise, but in the end, it really only impacts you (and your loved ones). It does not save me or my loved ones if you get into a wreck with them.

In the groups with which my wife and I ride, the primary reason we have transceivers is to HELP THOSE AROUND US. It's about caring enough for them, or for strangers that we happen upon, to help. Yes there are situation where all the safety gear is used and someone still dies, but that is not reasonable justification to not even bother. It just MIGHT save, or reduce severity of injury to, someone.

For such a small cost, almost everyone I know has chosen to have the equipment (on top of having already attended training) and as important, encourage those around them to attend the training and gear up.

Perhaps the best thing to do is focus on encouraging folks to attend training even more so that buying gear. For one, training is the most important part. Secondly, I've not met anyone that went to a good, two day training course and came away still thinking safety gear was "optional" or "not needed because now I'm trained". Training drives home the need for the gear.

For those that want to stick with the seatbelt or helmet analogy...it seems that no matter how safe one drives or rides (by avoiding unsafe driving conditions like driving at night or in the rain or snow which is similar to avoiding dangerous terrain or conditions when snowmobiling), one generally will still wear your seat belt or helmet. Why? Because of the unforeseen situations. Avoiding the most obvious driving risks above, you can still get hit by another driver, have an animal run out in front of you, etc. Hence the seat belt or motorcycle helmet. Being a great driver, or rider, or knowing where and when "not to go" regarding avy terrain is not always going to keep you out of trouble. There are those time where you, or someone you are with, might make that momentarily, but monumental, bad choice despite training. Same with other groups you may come upon that got into trouble knowingly or unknowingly.

For us and most of the riders we know, there really wasn't a decision process on this one at all. It seems intuitive that when one gets interested in sledding in the mountains, you get training and wear safety gear.

For our part, we'll just keep pushing training since the safety gear will follow.

Please, please, please attend an avy training course that includes not only a day of in-class instruction but a day of training in the field. And encourage those around you (they just might save your skin someday).
Thank you!
because a seatbelt, or a motorcycle helmet, for example, only protects you and not those around you
Seat belts do protect you and the people around you in your vehicle. That is a fact! :face-icon-small-hap
 
I'm with co powder on this topic you need to make smart choices while riding and not depend on the latest gear and say this will keep me safe. The newest fatalitie in Cooke should speak volumes. Gear does save some lives but when poor choices are made there are consequences. This will further add to the closing of sledding in Cooke city.


I would hope that just having the gear doesn't keep someone from thinking about their choices on the mountain, but unfortunately it does for some.
 
The seatbelt issue wasn't about wether or not they saved lives, but the freedom of choice ( you know like a free country ). Same with avy equipment the freedom to choose and not to be made to feel guilty by some that want to ride some of the most dangerous parts of the mountain and then want to make it my responsibility to save their butts. Granted things can happen anywhere you can get hit by a car walking out of you house one morning also your just as dead.
 
I always like the analogy of avalanche safety gear is like seat belts.

When I drive down the highway I am very proactive about not getting into a situation that would put me or anyone in the vehicle in harms way. However, I don't know for certain when something will happen to cause me to be in a car wreck. It could be a deer jumping into the road, a drunk driver, or something else. Because of that, I wear a seat belt. They save lives. I could still be killed in a wreck, but my chances or survival go up.

I look at avalanche gear the same way. I read the avalanche report every time before we ride. I often will dig a pit and check the snow myself. I wear a beacon, shovel, probe and airbag because at the end of the day I can't tell you if something is going to slide. I mitigate my chances with education, but at the end of the day there is still a chance and the safety gear is cheap compared to the consequences of being buried in a slide and not having it. I can still get killed in a slide but with safety gear my chances go way up.

You get to make your own decisions and I hope that it never happens to you or anyone you know. The reality is if you ride long enough it's going to happen. I hope you and your friends decided to increase your odds of survival when it does.



Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk
 
Seat belts do protect you and the people around you in your vehicle. That is a fact! :face-icon-small-hap

You bet. I totally agree if you are changing the scenario to add other occupants inside the vehicle. My point, of course, was a single driver wearing a seatbelt or not wearing a seatbelt doesn't impact the survivability of anyone outside of that vehicle where having a transceiver and beacon does not only helps the owner/wearer, but those around you. Boils down to having the basic safety gear to effectively assist yourself, those in your party or anyone else on the mountain.
 
The seatbelt issue wasn't about wether or not they saved lives, but the freedom of choice ( you know like a free country ). Same with avy equipment the freedom to choose and not to be made to feel guilty by some that want to ride some of the most dangerous parts of the mountain and then want to make it my responsibility to save their butts. Granted things can happen anywhere you can get hit by a car walking out of you house one morning also your just as dead.

I don't think anyone is arguing about freedom to do anything. There are no laws about carrying safety gear and no one is suggesting that. We are having a conversation about why people choose to carry or don't and everyone is free to do what they want. Each side is making their points.

For my wife and I, it's about be risk averse. We are not riding the dangerous parts of the mountain and expecting someone outside our party to save us. But in our terrain, even the Forest Service Roads that trail riders are on, pass through avalanche terrain and runout zones. If you go into the mountains, you are in avalanche terrain. It's a realistic potential so when we go out, we wear safety gear above and beyond evaluating conditions and terrain for the day.

Not sure why it keeps getting implied, by different folks, that those that wear safety gear are reckless. It is the opposite. After all, It's safety gear! That inherently means those that choose to get the training and carry safety gear are more aware and concerned about risk and not less concerned. There are exceptions, of course, but I think those that get trained and wear gear are just being more realistic and preparing for what MIGHT happen even when making reasonably good decisions or making one bad one.

Trying to make someone feel guilty is not an intent of explaining the reasons we choose to wear safety gear, but I acknowledge it could potentially be a result. It's more about understanding what could happen and for the consequences. With the comparably cheap price of a transceiver and probe compared to other sledding expenses, there just aren't too many reasonable reasons to not have and use the stuff. It's interesting. It's fun to practice. It has the potential to really make a huge difference in someone's life.
 
Did I say any of that? Nice try at sensationalizing it...


I have taken avy courses. They advise you to carry the gear. I have seen plenty of avalanches but I choose not to ride where they slide. There is TONS of terrain to ride that I find very entertaining without having to go into avy terrain.


Why is that so hard to believe?

It's not. The problem is as much as anyone can think they know a spot is dangerous or not, you just can't be positive. There is a spot out in Cooke that I have ridden on for 20 years. Have never seen it slide. Have never seen an old slide or debris or anything. I was positive this spot is safe. I happened to be riding with a guy that I occasionally meet up with. We went to this spot. He said,"oh yea, we had to pull a guy out of a slide in this spot one year". I was shocked. Couldn't believe it. I hope I ride around as long as I keep riding and never have to use my gear. But why not give yourself a little extra chance at coming home to your family.
 
I am surprised there are guys on here with such a strong side against avy gear. Their really isn't a neutral point here. You either think it is required and a responsibility to have it when on the mountain..... or you don't think it's nessissary because it hasn't happened to you yet.

The only point I have read on here from the "not nessissary" group that I agree with is about the regarding the lack of tech for 2015 and the price of it. Heck there are proximity dog colars out there with unbelievable accuracy complete with multiple signal inputs and tracking screens for less money than a single beacon. Just saying.

However, I believe like most that preperation and education is a must. For your safety and the safety of others. Most riding locations are remote from a rescuers point of view.
 
It's still a numbers game.




Yes driving to hill is statistically more dangerous than the ride.




But if you dance with the dragon long enough, he's gonna get you some day.


Anybody paying attention has seen videos of really small slides on 30 or 40 foot hills, or the one like the guy riding on the trail.


One place I ride has 7 avi paths just to get to the play areas.


Yea it might just be a body recovery tool, but even if you don't care. The guys that have to dig you out as a popsicle care, and I'm sure most peoples families would just as soon not be waiting days or months to get your body.


So I'm in the don't want to ride with you if you don't have a beacon camp.


Boobs or beacon, then we're in business. And no, moobs don't count!
 
People point out the cost of a beacon. i would not wear a $50 auto darkening welding helmet at work, i much prefer the $500 one. There is nothing you can say to convince me they both work the same
 
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