What's Happening To Big Bores?

[AdrenalineAddict]

Has anyone else noticed less and less big bores on the mountain, What's up? I've personally been running a UBR 900 for the last four years. It's been a marvelous gas and go sled, it's pushing 8,300 miles with minimal issues. Alot of folks seem to be shying away for some unknown reason. My old UBR 900 eats XP's and Dragons for lunch, handles M1000's with ease. All in all it's one kickazz machine for a normally aspirated sled. If you look in the swapmeet, it appears you can't give away a custom built big bore, Why? There's a pile of $20,000 sleds guys can't seem to move for $6,000. Turbos are not for everyone. I don't understand the reasoning for going back to stock, as many have, for stock performance? Can someone shed some light on this phenomenon for me?

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

I think with how good the new sleds go stock..most dont want the perceived headaches of a custom mod sled..or dealing with race/avgas....

 

[hilinerider]

nobody wants to wrench anymore, the older big bore mods might be awesome with a turbo though?

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I haven't seen the performance gains some are claiming to be seeing. I ride with a fellow running a well tuned 2003 VE Polaris 800 that outruns his brothers well set-up dragon, smokes it in the powder, outruns it up hardpack steep pulls. He doesn't see any reason to update and isn't overly fond of any of the rider forward designs. Race gas is a hassle, but from my view the new designs appear to be a small step backwards in performance from say, 2003.

 

[Nate]

Look at whats left for bigbores

Racinstation 1200 kit, which is a mighty damned handfull

D&D 1200 kit

Bikeman 1200 Kit

860 motor for Doo

Unionbay sold to Fastrax

Cutlers does turbo's for the most part

Hobbes quit making motors

Whats that leave you with bigbores? it leaves you with the bigbores that produce a massive amount of HP. The stock sleds IMO have gotten to where you just dont really need it. Back when Cat just had the 900 motor and the 700 motor you wanted more power, now the new sleds and there technology has grown, almost to the point where we really dont need it

Is it obsolete because of turbo's? IMO yes and no. There isnt a draw back line between the HP of a turbo and a bigbore. Turbo=Tons of power, Bigbore=Lots of power, then there is stock with a few mods. They seem to be getting around fine with stock and a few mods

I think turbo's have alot to do with not seeing very many bigbores, and stock sleds being more powerful from the factory

my .02

 

[winter brew]

The Poo based UBR 900 is a great engine, probably one of the last good, reliable mod engines that I have been around. I think one of the problems is that most of the stuff out there right now is JUNK and will rarely run with most stock sleds. Then considering that the stockers have narrowed the gap, are cheaper, have a warranty, nicer chassis and ride, and it is very rare that a person can ride a big stock mountain sled to its full potential, I know I can't.

 

[sepeterson]

Paul, I just spoke with Jerry. Sorry to hear about your sled. If it werent Easter tomorrow I would come up tomorrow. Get a couple guys and 2-300 feet of rope and a block and tackle. It works great I promise. Scott

 

[Metallic(a)sled]

its probably turbo kits

 

[summitchaser]

Adrenalineaddict hits it on the head. You see a bunch of sleds with 20,000 grand invested and they are for sale for less than 10,000. I worry about reliabilty of engine and how hard it has been pounded. I can't afford to buy a big bore and have engine work done all of the time, and I don't have the shop to work on them myself. I won't run race or av fuel either. It is just too expensive.

Same goes for turbos, I hear the engine life can be pretty short for one. Me I would have to buy one used and I can't buy a new sled every couple of years so I don't think I could take the risk. I would love the hp of either sled though.

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

Another factor that just crossed my mind may be the inflated price of new sleds. I guess if I just dropped $11,000 to $12,000 on a new sled I wouldn't be to inclined to drop another $4,000 into the motor, but for those who test and tune there are some fantastic buys out there right now on mods. I have a friend who recently gave somewhere in the neighborhood of $16,000 for a new dragon with some extra goodies on it. For $5,800 I could purchase an awful nice clean one owner mod, this would leave $10,200 on the table for a few years of maintenance, Hmm!! For those who do their own wrenching it looks to be a good time to buy.

 

[OuraySledder]

Definately a two part answer. New sleds are super capable, I have ridden a stock M7 with 800 Edge mods and spanked them. The motivation to put more power in the old chassis just isn't there, and you can buy an M1000, add a pipe, can and boondocker that has almost 200hp reliably. Why spend 5 grand on a built motor.

Then certainly the Yammi turbos. More power and less hassle than a built motor for the same money in mods. I also see a lot of turbo's for sale, I think in many cases these babies are so powerful and the new tracks work so well that you can climb where you probably shouldn't. I think it scares people back into extremely capable but reliable sleds like the D8 and 800 Xp.

 

[brycenator]

Why spend 5 grand on a built motor.

it scares people back into extremely capable but reliable sleds

For me this explains it right here...

Additionally, I've seen some really nice built sled... funny thing is that I usually see them just putting down the trail. People are learning they just don't need all that stuff with today's modern sleds.

 

[carguy]

I think in many cases these babies are so powerful and the new tracks work so well that you can climb where you probably shouldn't.

Well put, myself included.

Love the big bore sound and love to watch them on the hills. That said, one spends $$$$$ to build it and can only sell it for $ when they want to move on. Maybe those who spent big dollars on them see the depreciation as too great when they want to sell and now choose to avoid that kind of loss again. The new sleds from the factories are climbing higher and the depreciation isn't as great when you sell.

Still I'd love to find a low buck mod big bore or t-apex to run, one that someone else has paid the depreciation on already!

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I agree with the fact that out of the box sleds are quite capable, but I just haven't seen the performance gains many claim to have been seeing. The only mildly modded sled I've seen that sort of peaks my interest is the M1000. We have a local rider that has remapped, put on a SLP single, runs hoodless for weight savings, has taken 25 lbs out of the rear skid, rider weighs 170lbs max. and it runs good, but nothing like the Cutler 1000 M7's I've seen. There haven't been any leaps in 800 performance in years but a lot of people are buying. My son and I were doing some big mountain drag racing today with our UBR 9's. We raced few XP's and a stock M1000 this morning. In a 1/4 mile steep pull they were being left by 200 to 300 feet, some bailed out and couldn't make the crest. These are the sleds people are flocking to the dealers to purchase. It appears that alot of folks these days are satisfied with mediocre performance. A few years ago they weren't. It also appears that alot of individuals perception's of what is considered solid performance has changed.

 

[OuraySledder]

I agree with the fact that out of the box sleds are quite capable, but I just haven't seen the performance gains many claim to have been seeing. The only mildly modded sled I've seen that sort of peaks my interest is the M1000. We have a local rider that has remapped, put on a SLP single, runs hoodless for weight savings, has taken 25 lbs out of the rear skid, rider weighs 170lbs max. and it runs good, but nothing like the Cutler 1000 M7's I've seen. There haven't been any leaps in 800 performance in years but a lot of people are buying. My son and I were doing some big mountain drag racing today with our UBR 9's. We raced few XP's and a stock M1000 this morning. In a 1/4 mile steep pull they were being left by 200 to 300 feet, some bailed out and couldn't make the crest. These are the sleds people are flocking to the dealers to purchase. It appears that alot of folks these days are satisfied with mediocre performance. A few years ago they weren't. It also appears that alot of individuals perception's of what is considered solid performance has changed.

Whoa, back the train up a second. Nobody said a new stocker is going to run with your $5000 mod engine sled. And if performance isn't an issue why do I see a slew of tubo Yammi's out there? Lets line up a $5000 turbo kitted Apex next to your UBR 900 and see who is out gunned, that is a fair comparison.

What I was trying to say was that stockers today stomp stockers from yesterday so fewer people feel the need to go big. I've been riding a bone stock M7 153 and stomping on a couple of piped/canned/clutched 800 RMKs, one an '02, one an '05. That used to be a pretty hot, sub mod, sled. Now a stock 700 outclimbs it by a bunch with the same rider on it. I know a 154 hp Dragon is going even further than the little M7, as are the XP's so by my measure, and maybe I'm just a sissy boy, the new stock sleds with 3 year warranties are looking pretty impressive.

I do want a turbo Apex as a climber, wouldn't own it as a primary sled, but the power is addictive and performance downright insane. Most days though, I just don't need that much.

I think it is great you have been able to ride a mod like that for a while, and it damn well better beat up a stocker, new or old. But for us regular Joes, the 800 Dragon, XP or M1000 flat smoke what was availible just a couple years ago. I also know that if I wanted to drop a few extra grand for power it would be on a turbo instead of a big bore. Same money, same maintainance, more power, less wieght if you have to go to a tripple to get the 250+hp.

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I'm not trying to create some sort of pissing match here or brag about how a sled runs, what I'm a little bewildered about is what you are saying. Many people including yourself are claiming that the sleds have made a big jump in performance the last few years, that's something I haven't seen. If anything I've witnessed in step in the opposite direction. I ride with a couple well set-up 03 800 Poos. They consistently outperform the XP's and Dragons of today. A few years ago many were building mods to outperform these 800 Poos, today people seem to be happy with outdated performance. I guess maybe we've hit a plateau where 150'sh horsepower is all the manufacturers are going to deliver. It used to be many riders wanted more, now a lot of those same people are content.

 

[iluv2fly]

I ride with some of the older 800 polaris's and stock for stock they will not touch one of the newer ones. Even with twin pipes they still can't compete with the new 800's that are out. Plus the new chassis is heaven compared to the old chassis.

 

[modsledr]

This is a good thread...and a good question.

I can shed a little first hand experience.

For the last 3 years, been riding a 2003 Rev based mod with an 1150 UBR, VE tunnel, aftermarket susp, etc, etc...Sled before that was a polaris chassis with an 809 tripple, full susp, etc, etc...

This year, finally got tired of tweaking, tuning, and wrenching on the 2 strokes and older chassis (I know, Rev isn't that old). On the best powder weekend of the last 10 years (in WA) hit a tree and wasted the front end on the rev. Buddy I was riding with had a bone stock 2007 800 Rev he let me ride. Couldn't believe how much fun I had...didn't turn a wrench all day. Rode more that day than any other day before that. That was it for me. Until.....

Had the opportunity to by a S/C Nytro with all the lightweight goodies already on it, so I went for it. Got a great deal, and I'm loving every minute of riding the new sled. I love the turn key of the 4 stroke. No more oil. No more jetting changes. The bonus is how well this sled handles the boondocking, trees (we ride a LOT of trees in WA), on/off throttle situations. Has the low end grunt of the 1150, but with more top end that I can hold WOT for 10 minutes if I want (not a lot of HiPerf 2 strokes can do that).

I agree with OuraySledder...stock for stock, the new sleds are the equal or better than the lightly modded sleds of just a few years ago. And the chassis are 100% better handling (maybe not if you just want to be a point and shoot hillclimber...hard to beat the stability of the Edge chassis).

Now, I'm trying to sell my Rev, which has close to $30k invested in it. Not a lot of interest, even for less than $10k.

my 2 c
modsledr

 

[modsledr]

I'm not trying to create some sort of pissing match here or brag about how a sled runs, what I'm a little bewildered about is what you are saying. Many people including yourself are claiming that the sleds have made a big jump in performance the last few years, that's something I haven't seen. If anything I've witnessed in step in the opposite direction. I ride with a couple well set-up 03 800 Poos. They consistently outperform the XP's and Dragons of today. A few years ago many were building mods to outperform these 800 Poos, today people seem to be happy with outdated performance. I guess maybe we've hit a plateau where 150'sh horsepower is all the manufacturers are going to deliver. It used to be many riders wanted more, now a lot of those same people are content.

You're not really comparing stock for stock if you're talking about "well set up 800 poos". Give the new sleds a chance to be "well set up" and then compare. What I have seen on the hill is the new chassis are far superior to the older chassis in rideability, and that riders and having more fun riding (more like riding a dirt bike now). Even if the power is equal to what it was, dont underestimate the role of the new chassis.

Also, if you look at the specs of the newer sleds, the manufacturers have done a pretty good job of taking the basic mods and making them stock. How much did it used to cost to have a sub 500lb sled?

I would argue that for the cost of a 2003 800, plus the mods to get under 500lb and add 15 hp, you would have spent $10k total ($7k sled, $1.5k suspension, $500 seat. $1k pipe/can/airbox mods). Now, you get that out of the box with a 3 year warranty. Makes sense to me.

modsledr

 

[Desperado]

I have a well tuned 03 escape and I ride with an M7 and M1000. There is no way I can climb in 3ft of fresh stuff as far as they can period. Those chassis get up on the snow much better then my old iron. The chassis, track, and motor advancment since 03 have made the stock sleds (all brands) of today so much better in all around performance that many folks and that would include my self are completly happy with the stock sleds of today. A couple small mods and the stockers of today will go where it scares the majority of people. That leaves the few with balz the size of grapefruits to go the turbo route or big bore route. Both of those options require money and the ability to work on short life motors. That is a pretty narrow market when compared to the majority of riders today. I believe with the further advancment of OEM sleds you will see less and less of those old big balz hop up days. I did have fun back then though.