What can we do?

[Sapper]

Hey sling-it,
Another site for you is. http://avalanche1.com/
They show where and when the classes are. You can also arrange to have a class in your area.

 

[Sling-it]

Hey sling-it,
Another site for you is. http://avalanche1.com/
They show where and when the classes are. You can also arrange to have a class in your area.

Thanks! Added to my trip file.

 

[rags319]

This has me thinking - maybe we'll look into obtaining a number of those dvds and include them with our avalanche safety rental packages for customers to watch when they get the equipment. Our rental customers are likely those that are least experienced, and this could be some small way to encourage gaining some knowledge, etc.

Not as good as a hands on class, but better than nothing!

Thats a great idea.

 

[Sapper]

That's awesome OE!


I agree with much of what has been said. I started using guides because that's the only way I could get the "War Department" (my wife) to go out there with me. I can not say enough how much I have enjoyed having one. Our guide this year told us that we didn't need to rent a guide. He said most of the locals will take you out if you just ask.


On a separate note I am still trying to figure out how to get the manufacturers to take hold of the idea of helping spread the info.

 

[motodad383]

Something that comes to mind is sled rental. I rented a sled once (never again, I'll buy the damn thing lol), and had friends that have rented and not once were asked if we had avy gear. One place did not even have beacons to rent for 2 friends on one trip, but they could rent sleds.

Also, video's or info could be distributed with the non-resident permits, it may open the eyes of some of us flatlanders.

 

[Sapper]

I was thinkin about that too. I rented a pro rmk this year for my wife they never asked us either when we rented. But I was asked a couple times, on other occasions during the trip, if i had been through the duffy course since he happened to be there when we were there. It was nice to hear that. We were in the big horns when that happened.

 

[Pro-8250]

Education is Everything

Drowning is the number one cause of snowmobile deaths in North America. Living here in northern MN. I have learned to pay attention to conditions well before our season starts, and as the season goes on. Riding in the mountains is no different. Know the conditions, and know your limitations. You have to be heads up, and well informed, and well equipped. Having all the safety training, DVD's, and equipment is great, but there is no guarantee it will save your butt. Be smart! There are loved ones that expect you to come back home safe. I do want to thank Snowest and all the people here that contribute to this forum. I have learned so much from everyone.

 

[scootdog]

If I'm heading out of state on a trip I always read the local avalanche forecast weeks if not months ahead of time. It gives you the snowpack history and they always report when a slide happens so you know some of the prone spots.

I when I bought snowmobiles for the first time a few years ago I knew I was going to use them in the backcountry. My riding buddies and I all took an avalanche class and bouhgt avy gear. It's part of the deal you have to know what your getting into. Knowing the terrain to avoid will save your life.

I do think the manufactures could be better at promoting avalanche awareness. Two things are preventing them 1) who wants to buy something that could kill them? 2) if they hand out DVDs or some form of simple training, someone could sue if they got hurt or killed.

It all comes down to personal responsibility. Individuals should keep themselves safe. More government bureaucrats writing tickets will not help anything. Instead hire forecasters to go out dig some pits and advise the public of the dangers.

 

[Sapper]

I totally agree we don't need more regulation but I do think manufactures/dealers could do more. I know the dealerships (very few) in mn that host the Mike Duffy courses also carry avy gear and you usually get 10% off gear if you take the course there. I think you would find that people that buy from those dealers are probably more aware than say someone who buys from a dealer that doesn't have that. I think it is more about offering the gear/ training opportunities while still letting people have the choice. I can't believe that would put any sort of reliability on anyone but the individual.

My thinking is those first timers, mostly, that are so excited to ride in the mountains. They may not now where, how or that they NEED the gear and training. I remember the first time I went out I was oblivious to the dangers. I grew up on snowmobiles in mn. I love snowmobiles and in mn excitement for me was, "I can climb that". That's were the problem comes in. My lack of knowledge could have very well lead to condolences being given to my family.

My mountain riding has evolved over the years. I still don't know it all, I don't live there. I have gained the knowledge to ride as safe as possible and am prepared for most anything hopefully. I just want to help spread awareness. Anyone I take out with me must have the training and gear. I always tell them its just for there sake but mine as well.

That all being said, PERSONAL Responsibility is the most important thing to maintain.

 

[Bcorn]

Drowning is the number one cause of snowmobile deaths in North America. Living here in northern MN. I have learned to pay attention to conditions well before our season starts, and as the season goes on. Riding in the mountains is no different. Know the conditions, and know your limitations. You have to be heads up, and well informed, and well equipped. Having all the safety training, DVD's, and equipment is great, but there is no guarantee it will save your butt. Be smart! There are loved ones that expect you to come back home safe. I do want to thank Snowest and all the people here that contribute to this forum. I have learned so much from everyone.

Agree!

 

[rockymtnboy]

I am extremely luckly in the fact that I can ride my sled out of my shop and be in waist deep powder(6000 plus ft) in 15 min w/o loading it into a truck. my riding buddies and I put a lot of mtn miles on in a yr are too familiar with avy's and there devastation.

in 2007 a slide pulled me off a 50' cliff causing a compound fracture tib/fib. my lungs where so badly damaged the doc said he has only seen lungs this bad in deadly car accidents. the list goes on, but im not gonna bore you. this all happen in an area that I have been riding in since I was 5 (25 plus yrs) with my dad. never seen it slide ever!!!! so..... local knowledge is great but don't bet the farm on it.

in 2011 a buddy was buried by a 20' bank that sluffed while he was on the ROAD. it pulled him off the road and over the over side. he was buried for 15 min before he was rescued. so..... to say "im not going into avy terrain today so im not gonna wear my pack/beacon/shovel/probe etc" is in my opinion crazy. it doesn't take a lot of snow to cover you and believe me, it's heavy!

in 2012 my cousin's husband was killed in an avy. it was a "considerable" day on the avy forecast so they decided to "play in the tree's". there are a lot of us that have said that before, I know I have! a tree took his life as he was dug out in 7 min and was only 18" down. so to say "I am gonna go play in the trees today" b/c the danger level in bad is not a sure thing.

three weeks ago my brother was in cooke city and was buried breaking his leg(similar to mine, compound fracture tib/fib) and destroyed both his knee's. the avy research team said "this guys were prepared and knew there stuff, but still, luck was the only reason he survived"

I know some of you are gonna read this and say "wow, this guys are f'n idiots, I've been sledding for 30 years and never even seen an avalanche. this guys must go looking for them." this is not the case! but it is fine..... as long as I can get through to a couple of people ill take the rotten tomato throwers. IF YOU SLED, U NEED KNOWLEDGE AND PRACTICE WITH YOUR GEAR!!!!! area knowledge, equipment knowledge, condition knowledge. yes an avy bag/beacon/probe/shovel are expensive, but so is 10 days in icu (in my case) and almost 2 yrs to totally recover. the avy gear is a drop in the bucket. never mind the chopper to take me off the mtn, sled totally destroyed, etc, etc. NOBOBY LOVES SLEDDING AS MUCH AS ME but pleeeease respect mother nature, she always wins. and know your stuff. we have lost one bro in all of our accidents. it could of very easily been 4, and I can say that has been due to us practicing and refining our skills with our own gear, luck as the cooke city guy said, and the man upstairs!!!!

 

[Pro-8250]

I am extremely luckly in the fact that I can ride my sled out of my shop and be in waist deep powder(6000 plus ft) in 15 min w/o loading it into a truck. my riding buddies and I put a lot of mtn miles on in a yr are too familiar with avy's and there devastation.

in 2007 a slide pulled me off a 50' cliff causing a compound fracture tib/fib. my lungs where so badly damaged the doc said he has only seen lungs this bad in deadly car accidents. the list goes on, but im not gonna bore you. this all happen in an area that I have been riding in since I was 5 (25 plus yrs) with my dad. never seen it slide ever!!!! so..... local knowledge is great but don't bet the farm on it.

in 2011 a buddy was buried by a 20' bank that sluffed while he was on the ROAD. it pulled him off the road and over the over side. he was buried for 15 min before he was rescued. so..... to say "im not going into avy terrain today so im not gonna wear my pack/beacon/shovel/probe etc" is in my opinion crazy. it doesn't take a lot of snow to cover you and believe me, it's heavy!

in 2012 my cousin's husband was killed in an avy. it was a "considerable" day on the avy forecast so they decided to "play in the tree's". there are a lot of us that have said that before, I know I have! a tree took his life as he was dug out in 7 min and was only 18" down. so to say "I am gonna go play in the trees today" b/c the danger level in bad is not a sure thing.

three weeks ago my brother was in cooke city and was buried breaking his leg(similar to mine, compound fracture tib/fib) and destroyed both his knee's. the avy research team said "this guys were prepared and knew there stuff, but still, luck was the only reason he survived"

I know some of you are gonna read this and say "wow, this guys are f'n idiots, I've been sledding for 30 years and never even seen an avalanche. this guys must go looking for them." this is not the case! but it is fine..... as long as I can get through to a couple of people ill take the rotten tomato throwers. IF YOU SLED, U NEED KNOWLEDGE AND PRACTICE WITH YOUR GEAR!!!!! area knowledge, equipment knowledge, condition knowledge. yes an avy bag/beacon/probe/shovel are expensive, but so is 10 days in icu (in my case) and almost 2 yrs to totally recover. the avy gear is a drop in the bucket. never mind the chopper to take me off the mtn, sled totally destroyed, etc, etc. NOBOBY LOVES SLEDDING AS MUCH AS ME but pleeeease respect mother nature, she always wins. and know your stuff. we have lost one bro in all of our accidents. it could of very easily been 4, and I can say that has been due to us practicing and refining our skills with our own gear, luck as the cooke city guy said, and the man upstairs!!!!

After reading your post, it was like you threw a bucket of water in my face!
I can't thank you enough for your advise! You did a hell of a job.

 

[Sapper]

I am extremely luckly in the fact that I can ride my sled out of my shop and be in waist deep powder(6000 plus ft) in 15 min w/o loading it into a truck. my riding buddies and I put a lot of mtn miles on in a yr are too familiar with avy's and there devastation.

in 2007 a slide pulled me off a 50' cliff causing a compound fracture tib/fib. my lungs where so badly damaged the doc said he has only seen lungs this bad in deadly car accidents. the list goes on, but im not gonna bore you. this all happen in an area that I have been riding in since I was 5 (25 plus yrs) with my dad. never seen it slide ever!!!! so..... local knowledge is great but don't bet the farm on it.

in 2011 a buddy was buried by a 20' bank that sluffed while he was on the ROAD. it pulled him off the road and over the over side. he was buried for 15 min before he was rescued. so..... to say "im not going into avy terrain today so im not gonna wear my pack/beacon/shovel/probe etc" is in my opinion crazy. it doesn't take a lot of snow to cover you and believe me, it's heavy!

in 2012 my cousin's husband was killed in an avy. it was a "considerable" day on the avy forecast so they decided to "play in the tree's". there are a lot of us that have said that before, I know I have! a tree took his life as he was dug out in 7 min and was only 18" down. so to say "I am gonna go play in the trees today" b/c the danger level in bad is not a sure thing.

three weeks ago my brother was in cooke city and was buried breaking his leg(similar to mine, compound fracture tib/fib) and destroyed both his knee's. the avy research team said "this guys were prepared and knew there stuff, but still, luck was the only reason he survived"

I know some of you are gonna read this and say "wow, this guys are f'n idiots, I've been sledding for 30 years and never even seen an avalanche. this guys must go looking for them." this is not the case! but it is fine..... as long as I can get through to a couple of people ill take the rotten tomato throwers. IF YOU SLED, U NEED KNOWLEDGE AND PRACTICE WITH YOUR GEAR!!!!! area knowledge, equipment knowledge, condition knowledge. yes an avy bag/beacon/probe/shovel are expensive, but so is 10 days in icu (in my case) and almost 2 yrs to totally recover. the avy gear is a drop in the bucket. never mind the chopper to take me off the mtn, sled totally destroyed, etc, etc. NOBOBY LOVES SLEDDING AS MUCH AS ME but pleeeease respect mother nature, she always wins. and know your stuff. we have lost one bro in all of our accidents. it could of very easily been 4, and I can say that has been due to us practicing and refining our skills with our own gear, luck as the cooke city guy said, and the man upstairs!!!!

Well said. Thank you

 

[OuraySledder]

I know some of you are gonna read this and say "wow, this guys are f'n idiots, I've been sledding for 30 years and never even seen an avalanche. this guys must go looking for them." this is not the case! but it is fine..... as long as I can get through to a couple of people ill take the rotten tomato throwers. IF YOU SLED, U NEED KNOWLEDGE AND PRACTICE WITH YOUR GEAR!!!!! area knowledge, equipment knowledge, condition knowledge. yes an avy bag/beacon/probe/shovel are expensive, but so is 10 days in icu (in my case) and almost 2 yrs to totally recover. the avy gear is a drop in the bucket. never mind the chopper to take me off the mtn, sled totally destroyed, etc, etc. NOBOBY LOVES SLEDDING AS MUCH AS ME but pleeeease respect mother nature, she always wins. and know your stuff. we have lost one bro in all of our accidents. it could of very easily been 4, and I can say that has been due to us practicing and refining our skills with our own gear, luck as the cooke city guy said, and the man upstairs!!!!

I think it definately needs to be said that, if you have this much experience with avalanche's, there is a VERY GOOD chance you are making poor choices.

I have seen lots of slides. My group have set off plenty of small to medium sized avy's over the years. Nobody has ever been buried. Nobody has every been seriously hurt. I think this is the type of experience you should be striving for, not pushing so hard that you end up in bad situations regularly where people are getting seriously injured or killed.

Your story is sobering but it it sure sounds avoidable. You can ride avy terrain year after year and not have the listed problems.

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

Well, we can start by reading this book: Snow Sense by Jill Fredston and Doug Fesler.

http://www.amazon.com/Snow-Sense-Evaluating-Avalanche-Hazard/dp/061549935X

Then encourage your local dealer to buy a bunch or copies and include one with every mountain sled purchase.

It's just a book (albeit a great primer on avy hazard) and not the fix but it's a good start.

 

[rockymtnboy]

I think it definately needs to be said that, if you have this much experience with avalanche's, there is a VERY GOOD chance you are making poor choices.

I have seen lots of slides. My group have set off plenty of small to medium sized avy's over the years. Nobody has ever been buried. Nobody has every been seriously hurt. I think this is the type of experience you should be striving for, not pushing so hard that you end up in bad situations regularly where people are getting seriously injured or killed.

Your story is sobering but it it sure sounds avoidable. You can ride avy terrain year after year and not have the listed problems.

I couldn't agree with you more, some poor decisions were made.......but how many bad decisions are made every day(not only in the sledding world, but every day life) that are not even thought of as bad decisions because there was no bad consequence. Looking back is always 20/20. And it can only be one small factor that changes those small/med size slides that you speak of that no one got hurt, into a fatality(position on the hill, small terrain trap etc).

Also, when you have 8 guys that are putting on 3000km a yr that's 24000 "man Km's" a yr. A lot of people don't put that on in the mtns in Lifetime. It comes down to exposure time, and yes like you said, we could of made better decisions, but eventually everyone will have an off day or have a wild card dealt to them.

I appreciate your comment, and like I said in my earlier post, fully expected it from someone. I am happy that no one in your group has been hurt. like I said, I spent the time to post it just to make guys think! I hope it has.

 

[snowww1]

What can we do? Good question.

Good idea to have snowmobile manufacturers provide an educational DVD with new mountain sleds.

BRP has offered free classes all over North America. I have been teaching classes in MN since 2006. The education, DVD's and books are available. Unfortunately, avalanche education is reactionary with most people. They take the classes after the accidents happen.

Ultimately you have to take responsibility for yourself and your riding partners.

The snowmobile industry has come a long way in the last 8 years in regards to avalanche awareness and offering the best products. One of the biggest problems is mountain sled dealers who are not carrying avalanche gear and have limited avalanche training. Quite a few dealers know very little about avalanches or how to use avalanche rescue gear.

A problem with riders is they have the avalanche gear, but are not proficient with it. Ask anyone who has taken an on the snow rescue class if it was worthwhile. The answer is always "Yes!" and they want their riding partners to have the same training.

I have been working on improving the avalanche knowledge and skills of snowmobilers since 1996. Seeing huge improvements and a change in the mindset, but with some riders we still have a long way to go. My DVD will be available at more dealerships this year, more rescue classes and higher level classes will be available. Classes are there, you just have to take them. Start teaching riders at a young age.

Any suggestions on how I can improve getting the word out, would be much appreciated.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.

 

[snowww1]

One other suggestion. One person in the group has to take the initiative to change the way their riding partners are doing things.

I received a call from a guy who took my rescue class and then went to train his friends with his new knowledge. They were reluctant to spend the time using the beacons before their trip since they "already knew how to use them".

They were shocked that they really didn't know how to use them effectively and were really appreciative (afterwards) that he made them do it