what avalanche equipment to purchase?
- Thread starter Johnrodgers
- Start date
Um, how is he going to find the others if he doesn't have a beacon?
heres how I look at it..the beacon ,probe, shovel are for rescuing others..the avy pack is a last ditch effort to save yourself........I have all of them..including loaners....bottom line is your brain and training is the start of it all....and the end of it all..technically if you use your brain and training..you wont let yourself get into a avy situation, if you do you hopefully can minimize your exposure,I would hope that all of us would invest in all of the gear and training available to usss..and most importantly use our heads when we are out there.........
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Snowjunky
Well-known member
Well said AKSNOWRIDER
Skibreeze go back and read my post please. If then you dont catch my thought I may want to edit the post. What I am trying to say is the beacon is worthless with out others that are capable of using theirs to find you for one. Thats why I feel a good riding partner is second to education. Also a beacon when your buried helps others find you. Or if you were not buried then it is a tool to find them. I was responding to the all to familiar statment of the group getting blindsided. In that case an ABS would be the best tool to improve your chances of not being buried. If all other members were buried with their beacons and you had an ABS and were on top you could still save them. I just feel it is a package deal. All 4 needed to be fully prepared. You will see I felt a good class was before riding at all. Does this sound better?
Skibreeze go back and read my post please. If then you dont catch my thought I may want to edit the post. What I am trying to say is the beacon is worthless with out others that are capable of using theirs to find you for one. Thats why I feel a good riding partner is second to education. Also a beacon when your buried helps others find you. Or if you were not buried then it is a tool to find them. I was responding to the all to familiar statment of the group getting blindsided. In that case an ABS would be the best tool to improve your chances of not being buried. If all other members were buried with their beacons and you had an ABS and were on top you could still save them. I just feel it is a package deal. All 4 needed to be fully prepared. You will see I felt a good class was before riding at all. Does this sound better?
last year for the fun of it I started turning my beacon on search mode in the parking lot of the bigger areas we ride..I am shocked how few of the people leaving the parking lot headed into the mountains had no signal..have done the same here and there when we stop for a break in the mountains and several groups are close by..pretty unnerving that people hold so little regard for their own safety...same deal with first aid kits..ever ask your fellow riders if they have one along?..very few do..yet our sport is littered with serious injuries....
Agreed, I was going on the basis of Arcteryx's post of buying a bag instead of a beacon. The obvious is avoiding an avy in the first place, but they do happen. IMO, most multiple burial situations are not only worst case senarios, but are completely avoidable, if everyone in the group has the proper training and doesn't deviate from the "rules" I did say most, not all.
IMO, any discussion can be beneficial to us all as it helps raise awareness. Hopefully this will translate to fewer sledders killed or injured in the future.
I do have an ABS pack mainly for me, and I am buying a new 3 ant. beacon to have a better chance to save someone else if the worst happens.
IMO, any discussion can be beneficial to us all as it helps raise awareness. Hopefully this will translate to fewer sledders killed or injured in the future.
I do have an ABS pack mainly for me, and I am buying a new 3 ant. beacon to have a better chance to save someone else if the worst happens.
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Snowjunky
Well-known member
I think you posted that last year didnt you AK. If not someone did.
After reading it My riding partner and I did it few times with the same result. We did our search and transmit test in a very crowded parking lot also. I ride with one of the most intelligent people I know. Sure helps having that confidence. I ran into a guy that wanted to ride with us and we told him no safty equipment we would rather not. Ran into him at the parking lot and noticed he had picked up a old beacon. I was curious when I noticed he didnt carry a shovel or probe.
After reading it My riding partner and I did it few times with the same result. We did our search and transmit test in a very crowded parking lot also. I ride with one of the most intelligent people I know. Sure helps having that confidence. I ran into a guy that wanted to ride with us and we told him no safty equipment we would rather not. Ran into him at the parking lot and noticed he had picked up a old beacon. I was curious when I noticed he didnt carry a shovel or probe.
any beacon will work..and I do understand that money is tight(I am a single parent of two teens, and no girlfriend)but I see guys that have a 11000 dollar sled with another 5-8 in hotrod parts , but no avy class,or gear..just wrong....last season we rode a very narrow canyon trail and while the avy danger was low, this canyon had some very wind loaded cornices that showed small crumples..so when we stopped to take a break we stopped in an area between these danger areas..sure enough in just a little bit here comes a group and they start himarking right under a large one..one of our guys went over and asked them if they realized it was there and the possible danger..they had no clue..nor did they stop..we moved on up the canyon just to be safe..
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Snowjunky
Well-known member
yes any beacon will do I was just reinforcing my earlier statments. That beacon is for retrivial only if not backed up with the rest of the pieces. I too need more education but have not been able to attend a on the mountain class. I probably couldnt tell the difference between a tree and body at 8 feet with a probe. Still looking as we have a few good instructors in the area. I have set up a private day with a search and rescue guy to teach me some hands on terrain identification stuff
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The most important thing here is to take an Avalanche course before you plan on riding, you will learn what you need and in the course you can usually use all the beacons and equipment and fiqure out which is best for yourself. The two day course is the one to take. A 3 hr classroom course is not enough. Believe me every bit of training helps and it comes to light when you need it. Now when I ride, I would perfer all my riding buddies to have this training because what if that was me again buried, could they save me? The other important tool is a SPOT, get one there a great tool, its an awfull feeling when your the only one left and theres no one in sight. The other tool Ive added to my first aid kit is a CPR Mask, one-way valve. I hope people take the courses and get educated, that is by far the best tool you can have.
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ss_badaz
Active member
I took a full day Avy awareness course last season and now another beacon training course a few days ago and it was an eye-opener. Once again you may have all the right gear but do you know how to use it properly. It’s not about hitting the search mode button and walking up to a burred person and start probing/digging them out.
More on understanding how the beacon functions and the information it’s relaying, precise pin pointing the location of a buried person(s). In a multi burial situation this can get real tricky throw some confusion panic into a situation, unorganized dealing with a possible threat of a second avalanche. I really do not think I would have been all that prepared had the worst happened.
I know now the people in our group whom some have Avy training but all are going to attend another refresher course this season. It is great education and awareness for all also a piece of mind when I am riding that the people around me have the ability to function properly shall something happen.
More on understanding how the beacon functions and the information it’s relaying, precise pin pointing the location of a buried person(s). In a multi burial situation this can get real tricky throw some confusion panic into a situation, unorganized dealing with a possible threat of a second avalanche. I really do not think I would have been all that prepared had the worst happened.
I know now the people in our group whom some have Avy training but all are going to attend another refresher course this season. It is great education and awareness for all also a piece of mind when I am riding that the people around me have the ability to function properly shall something happen.
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Arcteryx
Well-known member
Amusing
LOL, this is so SIMPLE a concept I find it amusing that there is such debate on the issue. The ABS website lists some statistics. In an avalanche 50% of people get buried. Average depth of burial is 1 meter. Of those buried in an avalanche 66% die. 80% of those who do die, die due to late rescue.
95% of people that are not buried in an avy live. There are differing stats on the ABS and SnowPulse but they average keeping you on the surface about 95% of the time.
So your chances of survival goes from about 62% to about 93% if you use the ABS instead of a beacon. I do suggest having both but if you can only have 1 and you understand statistics the bag is the clear winner. I concede not being in an avalanche at all your survival would go to 100% so proper training is very important. However, the avalanche I was in happened in a place that you would never expect. I've ridden there for years. It never broke before that day and it hasn't broken since. Point is you never fully know so being prepared is important.
Also important is to understand what the gear is for. A probe is for finding others. A shovel is for digging others out. A beacon is to find others who are buried and for others to find you if you get buried. These things can work in harmony but it makes you rely too heavily on others. The ABS gives you a MUCH better chance at not needing these tools in the first place. With an ABS you are taking responsibility for your survival instead of placing your survival in the hands of others.
I love the guys I ride with, they are the best. They don't however ride with probes or shovels but I do. So I kind of have them covered but they don't really have me covered.
Do the people you ride with all have shovels and probes. If not and you get caught in one your screwed. If you got buried and had to be dug out without a shovel, your screwed. If your riding with just 1 guy and you both get buried well your beacon, shovel, and probe are useless and again your screwed.
Point is if your going in to buy equipment that is supposed to help you survive and you look at the DATA you personally have a much better chance at coming home to your family if you are wearing a pack. Check out the ABS website for videos, facts and DATA.
So yes, I am a fan of purchasing it all. But if you can only afford 1 again, I suggest the ABS. But then again, I like playing the odds.
LOL, this is so SIMPLE a concept I find it amusing that there is such debate on the issue. The ABS website lists some statistics. In an avalanche 50% of people get buried. Average depth of burial is 1 meter. Of those buried in an avalanche 66% die. 80% of those who do die, die due to late rescue.
95% of people that are not buried in an avy live. There are differing stats on the ABS and SnowPulse but they average keeping you on the surface about 95% of the time.
So your chances of survival goes from about 62% to about 93% if you use the ABS instead of a beacon. I do suggest having both but if you can only have 1 and you understand statistics the bag is the clear winner. I concede not being in an avalanche at all your survival would go to 100% so proper training is very important. However, the avalanche I was in happened in a place that you would never expect. I've ridden there for years. It never broke before that day and it hasn't broken since. Point is you never fully know so being prepared is important.
Also important is to understand what the gear is for. A probe is for finding others. A shovel is for digging others out. A beacon is to find others who are buried and for others to find you if you get buried. These things can work in harmony but it makes you rely too heavily on others. The ABS gives you a MUCH better chance at not needing these tools in the first place. With an ABS you are taking responsibility for your survival instead of placing your survival in the hands of others.
I love the guys I ride with, they are the best. They don't however ride with probes or shovels but I do. So I kind of have them covered but they don't really have me covered.
Do the people you ride with all have shovels and probes. If not and you get caught in one your screwed. If you got buried and had to be dug out without a shovel, your screwed. If your riding with just 1 guy and you both get buried well your beacon, shovel, and probe are useless and again your screwed.
Point is if your going in to buy equipment that is supposed to help you survive and you look at the DATA you personally have a much better chance at coming home to your family if you are wearing a pack. Check out the ABS website for videos, facts and DATA.
So yes, I am a fan of purchasing it all. But if you can only afford 1 again, I suggest the ABS. But then again, I like playing the odds.
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Arcteryx
Well-known member
Lol
My son is 4 and he is a huge daddy's boy. What he cares about is that I come home every time I go sledding. The point of this thread was a newbie (Johnrogers) asking opinions about how to prioritize the safety gear. Assuming that he is taking responsibility for his own safety first, the DATA clearly shows that a ABS will give him the greatest chance of survival if he is in an avalanche.
I do have a beacon, probe and shovel. More importantly I have the ABS. So instead of needing to be dug out myself, I would most likely be on the surface (alive) and pulling out that gear to try and find others who didn't have an airbag. So my son would think I was smart, responsible and alive and yes maybe even proud for saving his uncle.
So again, to answer the question, how would I prioritize the gear if I was just starting in the sport??? I would put the ABS first in the line up. Then again, I have been in an avalanche. I have had to dig myself, my sled, a friend and his sled out. I guess I just don't get it. For some reason I would MUCH rather be than on top of a slide than under one. Strange....
My son is 4 and he is a huge daddy's boy. What he cares about is that I come home every time I go sledding. The point of this thread was a newbie (Johnrogers) asking opinions about how to prioritize the safety gear. Assuming that he is taking responsibility for his own safety first, the DATA clearly shows that a ABS will give him the greatest chance of survival if he is in an avalanche.
I do have a beacon, probe and shovel. More importantly I have the ABS. So instead of needing to be dug out myself, I would most likely be on the surface (alive) and pulling out that gear to try and find others who didn't have an airbag. So my son would think I was smart, responsible and alive and yes maybe even proud for saving his uncle.
So again, to answer the question, how would I prioritize the gear if I was just starting in the sport??? I would put the ABS first in the line up. Then again, I have been in an avalanche. I have had to dig myself, my sled, a friend and his sled out. I guess I just don't get it. For some reason I would MUCH rather be than on top of a slide than under one. Strange....
If you are riding with people who don't have the basics, shame on them and you. Statistics are great, but I am not going to believe every stat that comes from somebody trying to sell me something. It's easy logic if you believe their stat and it works 100% of the time. Just last week a pack failed to work for the user, how do you like your chances then? You mention an 80% death rate for late rescues, but what you don't know is how many of those people or their group had the basics. I'm not discounting the advantages of a pack, I have one to give myself the best chance for survival. Using the "I can only afford 1" line is a cop out, especially when you can buy used beacons for $100. Truly amusing.
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Arcteryx
Well-known member
Common Sense
I agree stats can be manipulated, especially by companies trying to make a sale. However, at a certain point common sense has to prevail. Watch the video of the packs on dummies. You can see how they floated to the top. The physics makes sense. There are 3 companies making packs now and their stats are similar. Plus if you READ on the site and follow the links you will see the stats/results were verified by several different European snow and avalanche centers.
As far as an incident where a pack did not deploying the bags. I'm sure that happens, but was it user error or problems with the pack. If the packs themselves were faulty you would see a huge recall. The liability would be staggering if the packs had problems. I sky dive and primary chutes malfunction all the time. Beacons can fail too. People forget to turn them on, batteries die, I have even seen one break from being smashed against the steering pole. So the logic of "a pack failed to deploy" doesn't really hold much water. Beacons can and have failed. People make errors using equipment all the time, that doesn't mean the equipment is faulty. And in the event of a failure of any piece of equipment, I really don't like my chances as much as when things work.
And this is my last post because I think this is ridiculous. If I had to prioritize my priorities in the event of a slide my number 1 priority is
#1) To be on top of the slide and not under it
Therefor my number 1 priority as far as equipment goes would be
#1) The ABS because it gives me my best shot at staying on top of a slide and more importantly surviving a slide.
How you or I prioritize gear is just a matter of opinion, however the statistics behind slides, burial and survival are data. So although we might prioritize differently the data is the data.
If you want a better shot at surviving a slide buy a pack first. If you prioritize differently (maybe cost is an issue, or maybe you don't like wearing a pack) buy the beacon first.
I agree stats can be manipulated, especially by companies trying to make a sale. However, at a certain point common sense has to prevail. Watch the video of the packs on dummies. You can see how they floated to the top. The physics makes sense. There are 3 companies making packs now and their stats are similar. Plus if you READ on the site and follow the links you will see the stats/results were verified by several different European snow and avalanche centers.
As far as an incident where a pack did not deploying the bags. I'm sure that happens, but was it user error or problems with the pack. If the packs themselves were faulty you would see a huge recall. The liability would be staggering if the packs had problems. I sky dive and primary chutes malfunction all the time. Beacons can fail too. People forget to turn them on, batteries die, I have even seen one break from being smashed against the steering pole. So the logic of "a pack failed to deploy" doesn't really hold much water. Beacons can and have failed. People make errors using equipment all the time, that doesn't mean the equipment is faulty. And in the event of a failure of any piece of equipment, I really don't like my chances as much as when things work.
And this is my last post because I think this is ridiculous. If I had to prioritize my priorities in the event of a slide my number 1 priority is
#1) To be on top of the slide and not under it
Therefor my number 1 priority as far as equipment goes would be
#1) The ABS because it gives me my best shot at staying on top of a slide and more importantly surviving a slide.
How you or I prioritize gear is just a matter of opinion, however the statistics behind slides, burial and survival are data. So although we might prioritize differently the data is the data.
If you want a better shot at surviving a slide buy a pack first. If you prioritize differently (maybe cost is an issue, or maybe you don't like wearing a pack) buy the beacon first.
We agree about a pack being a great item to have. I can't understand your resistance for the guy to have the most basic gear, especially when a beacon is a relatively inexpensive item to have. You can debate stats all day long, but in the end it is an inexpensive extra layer of defense that can benefit everybody in the group, not just wearer.
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Arcteryx
Well-known member
No resistance
My bad. I didn't mean to imply that he shouldn't buy a beacon, I wear and fully support everyone riding with one. I was only saying that if I had to prioritize I would put the ABS pack first, beacon second, shovel third, and probe fourth.
If he can get both all the better. Looks like we both agree, a beacon and a pack are great items to have. We just put them in different orders as far as which to purchase first.
My bad. I didn't mean to imply that he shouldn't buy a beacon, I wear and fully support everyone riding with one. I was only saying that if I had to prioritize I would put the ABS pack first, beacon second, shovel third, and probe fourth.
If he can get both all the better. Looks like we both agree, a beacon and a pack are great items to have. We just put them in different orders as far as which to purchase first.
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cobbycat
ACCOUNT CLOSED
you aren`t getting the big picture, if you can`t afford the equipment, and the training, stay home. and yes, everyone in my group has beacons, probes, shovels, training, and most have avy packs. this is what it takes to be in our group, and if you don`t meet our minimum equipment and training expectations, you can go ride with someone else! and I don`t care if it is my own brother, best friend or a total stranger. as for not having a beacon, our group were first to show up at an avy with a guy burried last year. he had only been under 2 minutes when we got there. the first thing we did was to pull out our beacons only to be informed that he did not have one!!! we found him by probe lines 3.5 hours later. obviously he didn`t make it, but judging by where we found him, I probably would have found him in 2 minutes and he might have had a chance. regardless of all that happened that day, I live with guilt every day for not being able to save him because he decided not to wear a beacon. some of my group couldn`t deal with it and have quit sledding.
so what happens when your bag doesn`t deploy? what happens when your bag snags a tree and pops? the beacon is very important and this isn't a "me" sport, it is a team sport and your are only as good as the weakest link in your team. I trust my "team" with not only my life but with the lives of my family as well, as they will be the ones that pay the price if I don't come home.
R.I.P. Matt
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cobbycat
ACCOUNT CLOSED
it was tough. and as it turns out, when I saw the guy's face as we pulled his helmet off I did know him. not a best buddy or anything, but a buddies, kids, best friend. I will never forget those frozen, cold, lifeless, blue eyes staring up at me. sorry if I come off a little preachy, but I don't want to have to do that ever again. but I am equipped, educated, and ready, willing, and able if the need ever does arise.
