what avalanche equipment to purchase?

[skibreeze]

I never claimed to be "done" with it, why wouldn't I check out what's being said? That's what the 4m is for, isn't it?

 

[Arcteryx]

Ok uncle

I never claimed to be "done" with it, why wouldn't I check out what's being said? That's what the 4m is for, isn't it?

Dude, are WE a couple of school kids or what??? I NEVER said you claimed to be done with it. I asked, "Why aren't you done with it??? " That is a question. Note the question marks (these things????) I simply asked, why you aren't done with it yourself??
But in answer to your question, I believe (note: opinion) the forum is for the exchange of ideas, information and yes even opinions, that can help inform, educate and bring snowmobilers together. In my opinion, this thread and all threads start losing that purpose the minute people start pouncing on others and their ideas in a negative manner. I admit I participated by defending my opinions/positions/data, but I respected your original post when you first posted it. I also respected Cobbycat and Columbus in their original posts. You guys chose to pounce and I debated. I chose data to support my position, you guys chose ego and knowitall ism to support yours.
Big picture, I don't care what your opinions are your entitled to them. And I am entitled to mine! I just don't like being flamed over it.

 

[CatWoman]

This is getting waaaay off topic. I want the thread to be useful, thus allowing some deviation, but there really isn't any need for bashing.

A member came on here asking a question. Let's try to be helpful with this VERY important topic.

Sandy

 

[Sledson]

The most important thing here is to take an Avalanche course before you plan on riding, you will learn what you need and in the course you can usually use all the beacons and equipment and fiqure out which is best for yourself. The two day course is the one to take. A 3 hr classroom course is not enough. Believe me every bit of training helps and it comes to light when you need it. Now when I ride, I would perfer all my riding buddies to have this training because what if that was me again buried, could they save me? The other important tool is a SPOT, get one there a great tool, its an awfull feeling when your the only one left and theres no one in sight. The other tool Ive added to my first aid kit is a CPR Mask, one-way valve. I hope people take the courses and get educated, that is by far the best tool you can have.

The popularity of SPOT devices is purely a result of aggressive product placement and advertising. Put one in every outdoor store and everyone will think it's wonderful. Ever take a look at the spec sheet on that little gizmo? It transmits at a whopping 0.16Watts. I bet any one of us has a set of cheap walkie-talkies that are several times more powerful; try seeing how far away from your buddies you can be while still understanding them with only 2 watts of power. Also, it uses a 1.6GHz signal. Why is this bad? The same reason you can get AM radio in many places FM just won't reach: the wavelength attenuates in tree canopies and cloudcover.

So, why does the SPOT have such a low-powered transmitter? Because its original purpose is to be used as a "Satellite Messenger". They've done nothing in the way of false advertising here, they just allowed the public to extrapolate and enhance their own perception of what the device "should" be able to do. The transmitter is allowed by Federal regulation to transmit at 0.4Watts, but is only 40% as powerful because it was intended to utilize the subscription service wherein it sends out "OK" messages every 5 minutes so that your friends or family or anyone who cares can track your progress. Whoopee.

Think about that- your new wondertoy is intended to transmit thousands of messages at low power which are of absolutely no critical importance, and maintain suitable battery life on cheaply replaceable batteries.

Being a personal civilian electronic device which openly uses commonly broadcast signals, another stipulation is that it must accept interference from any outside source. Terrific.

All that being said, let's make a real reach and say your 911 message is transmitted and recieved successfully. Globalstar(anyone ever have trouble getting sat phone reception? This uses the same satellite constellation) calls local SAR and says "Our customer needs search and rescue". SAR goes about the rescue and sends you a nice invoice for the balance. Why? Because why should SAR provide an end use service for Globalstar and its affiliates' financial gain without reimbursement or compensation? There's a brochure in the SPOT packaging which offers insurance to cover these costs, but you can be sure that it isn't going to come out of government SAR funding. That helicopter is a thirsty girl, you know. Local jurisdictions have various cost structures and policies as to what will and won't be funded as part of the government-paid SAR budget(if any). Good luck with that.

The only reason for this little missive is to turn some of the advertising "ooh and aah" factor on its head and maybe provide a reality check to some people think that SPOTs are the be-all-end-all of emergency rescue. I don't mean to flame or chastise the person quoted here or make a personal attack, so if anyone get offended it's their problem not mine. I'm just very concerned that people are confusing the real capabilities of that device which are quite limited. Remember, 911 is a feature, not the original device's purpose.

I don't sell a competing product or represent any other company, but there's no way in hell I'm trusting my kiester to one of those things. If I buck up and buy a Personal Locator Beacon for the purpose of search and rescue I'll buy an ACR SARLink. It uses a global 406MHz SAR signal, is triple redundant, transmits at 6.3Watts(which means that the signal has 40 times the power and is subject to a quarter the attenuation), requires no subscription fee because it contacts global SAR directly(It must be registered with the gov't I believe) and is intended, from start to finish, to be used as a last resort. No silly digital bread crumb features or any of that nonsense. At 3-4 times the up-front cost I'd say that's a sweet deal.

What was that someone said about doing your own research? That there is my research, hope you like it.

 

[cobbycat]

This is getting waaaay off topic. I want the thread to be useful, thus allowing some deviation, but there really isn't any need for bashing.

A member came on here asking a question. Let's try to be helpful with this VERY important topic.

Sandy

sorry catwoman, some of us are just trying to not let someone mislead the member who asked a very important question. every avy class I've ever taken stresses (actually written in the book) the use of beacons, shovels, and probes. these are the items needed, the abs pack is extra insurance, and very valuable extra insurance so I would recomend it to. avalanche training is a must.

 

[Ex-Member]

If you're gonna throw out numbers, throw them all out. Antenna type(s), system gain, any fresnel zone information, path losses, receiver gain, preamp gain, bandwidth, modulation, VSWR.... There's a LOT more that goes into a radio link than frequency and transmitter power.

I'm no expert on it, but I have a fair amount of education and experience working with radio communications and electronics.

Don't be Al Gore and just spew out a handful of facts and figures then throw your own bias into it.

 

[Arcteryx]

Analysis of Avalanche Safety Equipment for Backcountry Skiers

http://www.snowpulse.ch/v3/medias/brugger_falk_report.pdf


Abstract
This review aims to evaluate and compare avalanche safety equipment for downhill and off-piste skiers on the basis of published rescue data. A new classification for avalanche rescue devices is proposed.
With respect to the different mechanisms of action we distinguish the following categories rescue devices:
A) devices aiming to prevent or reduce the extent of burial (ABS Avalanche Airbag, Avagear);
B) devices aiming to shorten the duration of burial (avalanche beacon, K2 avalanche ball); and,
C) devices with the aim to prolong survival time during complete burial (AvaLung TM).

The reduction of mortality is essential for the assessment of efficiency, representing the main criterion for the evaluation. The ABS Avalanche Airbag lowers mortality significantly from 23.0% to 2.5%
(p=0.001) and is considered as acceptable, safe and useful (Class IIa, the safety equipment of choice).
Avalanche beacons are marginally effective at reducing fatalities, (p=0.054) (Class IIb, acceptable and
useful devices). Due to the lack of data, AvaLung, Avagear and the K2 Avalanche Ball are determined
to be “Class III, indeterminate efficacy”, as additional confirmation is needed.

 

[Johnrodgers]

i think i am going to go ahead and get all the gear i can, and aim to find an avy class. honestly i was more or less curious if people thought abs avalanche packs were the real deal or not. im going to go and get a beacon probes and shovel in the next few days because of there lower cost. does anyone happen to know were to get the best deal on an abs bag?

 

[Arcteryx]

ABS Prices

I'm sure you didn't expect the big show when you asked this question. If you read the review I posted the link for (#67) you can see that the Austrian Association for Alpine and High Altitude Medicine reviewed all the gear based on published data. The ABS was ranked as the ONLY class IIa piece of safety gear and was also ranked as the "safety equipment of choice". It lowered mortality significantly from 23% to 2.5%.
The beacon was ranked class IIb effective and useful but was considered only marginally effective at reducing fatalities, from 75.9% to 66.2%.
I think you are making a great choice trying to get all of it. The more the better with this stuff.
If you go with ABS system (last I heard) Klim was the sole US distributor of ABS in the US. Their retailers like Tri City Polaris have yearly sales when this stuff goes 10% off. Those were the best deals I ever found when I was looking. The ABS Escape 15 usually starts at about $999. So picking it up for under $900 is really good. The new BCA Float 30 avalanche starts at $499.
I see your up in BC so I don't know what places or prices you have up there. There is one online place that sells both.
http://www.firstplaceparts.com/snowmobile-avalanche-ABS-Packs.html?gclid=CJbsjL6wtZ4CFREhDQodQnJ0lA
Good luck! Hope you have a great season and don't have to use any of your safety gear. If you do, your smart to have it all!!!
Arc

 

[cobbycat]

i think i am going to go ahead and get all the gear i can, and aim to find an avy class. honestly i was more or less curious if people thought abs avalanche packs were the real deal or not. im going to go and get a beacon probes and shovel in the next few days because of there lower cost. does anyone happen to know were to get the best deal on an abs bag?

good on ya for being avy conscious. are you looking for the ABS or another brand? we sell Snowpulse packs at work and I can check with the bosses on getting you a good price. if you want an ABS, one of the guys at work has an escape 15litre he wants to sell. I will get a price on both and get back to you tonight.

 

[DRAPE]

Jeepers John! Look what you started! And I hope it's ended now. You're smart for getting all the gear. But just be smart about where you ride. Don't take risks. There's plenty of riding out there that doesn't have to be risky. Here in Utah we have an avalanche hotline and website where we can check the forecast and danger level of avalanche.

I purchased an ABS bag this year and am stoked to have it. While I hope to never have to pull it, I feel most safe with it. And I'm glad all my buddies have the right equipment to find me if I do get burried.

 

[CatWoman]

sorry catwoman, some of us are just trying to not let someone mislead the member who asked a very important question. every avy class I've ever taken stresses (actually written in the book) the use of beacons, shovels, and probes. these are the items needed, the abs pack is extra insurance, and very valuable extra insurance so I would recomend it to. avalanche training is a must.

I understand.......I am standing in front at some of the classes locally, so I am very aware of what is taught and recommended.

I'm glad to see John poked his head back in!

 

[Johnrodgers]

Just ordered my abs bag today, i got the escape 15. and i bought probes and a shovel, and my friend is buying me a beacon back in Alberta that is on sale. So i GOT IT ALL. i figured they all had a specific use so i should just prioritize them all equally.

 

[Snowjunky]

As long as an avy awarness class is on your list to do very soon you have shown alot more common sense than a few here! I would only like to say in closing that anyone that uses the words Cant afford has no buisness talking safty as we all know safty is job one. John I spoke with someone tonight in person that has been in several avalanches over the years. I will neither condemn nor critisize the reasons why as his point of view was he was where he shouldnt be during all of them. One fateful day he was in an avalanche where several people were partialy buried and 2 were completly buried. The group as a whole had 2 shovels 2 beacons and 1 probe. The 2 that died could have been saved had they had beacons.He was very sure. One was 3 feet down 1 a little deeper. Neither had beacons. Neither had ABS bags
I have withdrawn from the discussion of bag or beacon as I feel the facts and statistics are being overlooked. The bag is a new product and classes are not teaching using them as a priority tool yet. I wish this forum would of been around when they invented the beacon.
As I questioned the survivor I noticed how many times he said"if they had a beacon he could of saved them" He is very well trained and does not take any chances anymore. I am not justifying ever taking chances. You are definately one of the smarter ones and I hope you enjoy many safe years of sledding. NEVER ride without your safty gear NEVER store your safty gear on the sled. Keep it on you. Take as many classes as you can and practice often. Remember to enjoy and protect your trails and pass on the knowledge you learn. We will all benefit from your input as you learn.

 

[Arcteryx]

Honest question

NEVER store your safty gear on the sled. Keep it on you.

The class I took in the past was geared toward climbing so the "keep your gear on you and not the sled" issue never came up. I am genuinely curious as to the reason for that?? My shovel goes in my pack when I have room and when I don't it goes in my tunnel pack.

I know I have heard it mentioned several times so I thought I would ask why???? Or what is being taught about it.

 

[skibreeze]

The class I took in the past was geared toward climbing so the "keep your gear on you and not the sled" issue never came up. I am genuinely curious as to the reason for that?? My shovel goes in my pack when I have room and when I don't it goes in my tunnel pack.

I know I have heard it mentioned several times so I thought I would ask why???? Or what is being taught about it.

Using your own logic of your pack keeping you on the surface, so your shovel would be with you. No guarantee that your sled will be on the surface.

 

[cobbycat]

The class I took in the past was geared toward climbing so the "keep your gear on you and not the sled" issue never came up. I am genuinely curious as to the reason for that?? My shovel goes in my pack when I have room and when I don't it goes in my tunnel pack.

if you do get yourself in a shatty situation the avy most often hides your sled on you, making any gear you have on your sled useless. picture this; you get in an avy, deploy your bag, ride out the slide on top, come to a halt on top but your buddies and sleds are burried. you find them with your beacon but are unable to dig them out because your shovel is 8' down with your sled. you also cannot dig your sled out to get home. I'm not saying this will happen, but if it does, something as simple as having your gear on your back could save your life, and the lives of your buddies or family that are riding with you. so general rule is avy gear in backpack, lunch in muffpot, anything that won't fit in pack with gear goes on sled. hope I have given you the answer to your ?. if not, pm me and we will chat about it.

 

[Arcteryx]

if you do get yourself in a shatty situation the avy most often hides your sled on you, making any gear you have on your sled useless. picture this; you get in an avy, deploy your bag, ride out the slide on top, come to a halt on top but your buddies and sleds are burried. you find them with your beacon but are unable to dig them out because your shovel is 8' down with your sled. you also cannot dig your sled out to get home. I'm not saying this will happen, but if it does, something as simple as having your gear on your back could save your life, and the lives of your buddies or family that are riding with you. so general rule is avy gear in backpack, lunch in muffpot, anything that won't fit in pack with gear goes on sled. hope I have given you the answer to your ?. if not, pm me and we will chat about it.

Makes sense, thanks Cobby!! Now that I think about it I had never ridden with a pack before my ABS, so my shovel and probe always went on the sled since that was the only place I had to carry safety gear. Now that I have options its easy enough to switch stuff around and keep the shovel on me. Thanks Cobbycat.

 

[sabercat]

Take an avalanche class. What people buy before taking a class is completely different than what they buy after taking a class. A class will tell you which equipment works best. Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of gear being sold that just does not get the job done or hold up.
I teach snowmobile specific classes. If you are interested in a class, please check out www.avalanche1.com. Mike Duffy

I took Mike Duffy's avy class in Green Bay, WI a month ago, it was very informative. I would highly recommend both Mike and his class.

 

[CatWoman]

This is often how the sled winds up.