W.L. Gore (Gore-Tex) Does support greenies.
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you're right big truck. TOBE uses a PTFE membrane similar to Gore-Tex too. They just don't pay for the Gore_tex name.
No matter what your stance is on this thread, I am thankful for Gore-Tex even though TOBE doesn't use it. They pioneered and created the membrane market. Now that the patent is up, competition has been created, and prices have dropped allowing consumers to have options for premium level clothing such as TOBE and Klim.
No matter what your stance is on this thread, I am thankful for Gore-Tex even though TOBE doesn't use it. They pioneered and created the membrane market. Now that the patent is up, competition has been created, and prices have dropped allowing consumers to have options for premium level clothing such as TOBE and Klim.
Dude, I've been watching. Your a stand up guy. Always taking the high road on this issue.
B
BigTruck
ACCOUNT CLOSED
So as stated, you can have the same benefits of Gore-tex without supporting the greenies. This should solve the dilema for a few.
OK, I better jump in here again. First I want to say I have no personal experience with TOBE. I believe it to be a great product right along with Klim. Again, I don't intend to pick on anyone here. Just that I work in the industry and have to sit through endless seminars from every company imaginable. This covers companies involved in street, dirt and snow. The industry is still very much buyer beware. Some companies are getting it right, but there are still A LOT of false advertisers out there.
There are some very good waterproof/breathable membranes being created. Indeed this is true. We all know that by now, BUT they are not all the same, not even close. The added competition is going to be great for the industry though. Should see some great advancements in the next few years.
As for E-vent, you can't even put it in the same category. Klim got their start with E-vent and had nothing but problems. It didn't work then and unfortunately it doesn't work now. If you wanted to compare it to a Gore-Tex product, it would be windstopper. It has some water dispersion properties, but works very slowly. Works good for warmth, but not breath ability.
Alpinestars even admits that after years of trying and product development, that they just can't get their stuff to perform like Gore-Tex. Which is why they introduced a line of Gore-Tex product this year. And they obviously have access to any membrane they want.
Not to say that these other products don't work, but Gore-Tex has had quite a head start. They definitely have an advantage on lamination techniques and what materials work the best in conjunction. Even today, they continue to test and advance while most companies are still trying to figure out how to get the stuff to work right.
I know this has gotten a little off topic. And yes you can call me biased all you want. I did tour and attend seminars at the Gore-Tex facility this fall. Even before this though, I would always ask my vendors about their product with one simple question. "How does it compare to Gore-Tex"? Every answer has been "it doesn't". It is always a "we're trying, but not quite there yet".
Yes, I truly believe that companies like TOBE have hit the nail on the head. More ski companies seem to also have better functioning gear. Remember, I'm around this stuff everyday. I've tested (out of pocket
) more product than I care to admit.
In the end whether or not Gore-Tex is supporting some organizations on the "other side of the fence". They do make a good product. And hold companies that choose to use it to a high standard. Meaning, you know you are getting a good product that works as advertised. And it is getting used in the snowmobile industry. So whether it be a little or a lot, Gore-Tex is saying, "we like snowmobilers".
There are some very good waterproof/breathable membranes being created. Indeed this is true. We all know that by now, BUT they are not all the same, not even close. The added competition is going to be great for the industry though. Should see some great advancements in the next few years.
As for E-vent, you can't even put it in the same category. Klim got their start with E-vent and had nothing but problems. It didn't work then and unfortunately it doesn't work now. If you wanted to compare it to a Gore-Tex product, it would be windstopper. It has some water dispersion properties, but works very slowly. Works good for warmth, but not breath ability.
Alpinestars even admits that after years of trying and product development, that they just can't get their stuff to perform like Gore-Tex. Which is why they introduced a line of Gore-Tex product this year. And they obviously have access to any membrane they want.
Not to say that these other products don't work, but Gore-Tex has had quite a head start. They definitely have an advantage on lamination techniques and what materials work the best in conjunction. Even today, they continue to test and advance while most companies are still trying to figure out how to get the stuff to work right.
I know this has gotten a little off topic. And yes you can call me biased all you want. I did tour and attend seminars at the Gore-Tex facility this fall. Even before this though, I would always ask my vendors about their product with one simple question. "How does it compare to Gore-Tex"? Every answer has been "it doesn't". It is always a "we're trying, but not quite there yet".
Yes, I truly believe that companies like TOBE have hit the nail on the head. More ski companies seem to also have better functioning gear. Remember, I'm around this stuff everyday. I've tested (out of pocket
) more product than I care to admit. In the end whether or not Gore-Tex is supporting some organizations on the "other side of the fence". They do make a good product. And hold companies that choose to use it to a high standard. Meaning, you know you are getting a good product that works as advertised. And it is getting used in the snowmobile industry. So whether it be a little or a lot, Gore-Tex is saying, "we like snowmobilers".
Glad to hear it is working good for you. It does what you want it to. And in the end that is all that really matters.
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Klim is in a class of its own right now if you’re talking snowmobile specific clothing. This is largely due to the Gore-Tex life of the product guarantee.
After that there are several good snowmobile specific cloths. To my knowledge all of the companies using after market waterproof breathable materials such as TOBE or Polaris have a one year warranty. The reason they have a one year warranty is the reason Klim stopped using after market material and got a Gore-Tex approval. JMHO
Last I checked Gore-Tex had a less then 1% failure rate on it's material. I think the next best after market material rating was about 35% failure. This was mostly due to seam sealing methods and material delamination.
After that there are several good snowmobile specific cloths. To my knowledge all of the companies using after market waterproof breathable materials such as TOBE or Polaris have a one year warranty. The reason they have a one year warranty is the reason Klim stopped using after market material and got a Gore-Tex approval. JMHO
Last I checked Gore-Tex had a less then 1% failure rate on it's material. I think the next best after market material rating was about 35% failure. This was mostly due to seam sealing methods and material delamination.
Why not,
Nobody could stay in business with a 35% failure rate.
Nobody could stay in business with a 35% failure rate.
I tried switching to HMK stuff, but had a seam seal failure, basically a manufacture defect. They blamed it on me, and never stood behind it. Klim has always stood behind their stuff for me, even the questionable stuff, so yes it is hard not to buy Klim stuff. Maybe I'll try some Tobe stuff next.
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Gawd, if you research every product you purchase and can't, in good conscience spend a dime on a company that supports a green.org, you will probably find your self living in a mud-hut or igloo, hunting and gathering, and making your clothes out of hemp. You guys putting down gore-tex or any other company for doing smart buisiness really ought to research every product you buy before getting up on your pedestal. I think you'll be knocked down a peg or two pretty quick!
Instead of piddling about the 2 cents a year you inadvertantly donate to the sierra club per, donate to the groups you agree with, if you donate at all? If not, then STFU is a good place to start.
Shoot maybe we oughtta wise up and start a sledder organization that donates to the sierra club. Then we'd have a voice within their org and could plot from within! An extreme example I suppose, but that's basically what your seeing when companies, you might think are "on your side", are supporting these organizations. They're whoores for money, and don't think that a big donation from Weyerhauser is refused or doesn't go un-noticed. Sierra club is still going to beat them up on some issues, but they will give concessions on others. My example is simplistic, but you better believe this is how buisiness' operate when it comes to pleasin the greenies. Green is a big market segment and no business can afford to ignore it. Maybe if us sledders banned together and acted more like a business (as sierra club has) we would get more concessions too.
Don't get all worked up about the 2 bucks that you would have inadvertantly donated to the greenies this year, (hey I don't shop REI or whatever either, but i'm not fooling myself that i'm "pure" either) instead, give as much as you can to the orgs that are fighting for your rights (a lot more than 2 bucks!). I can spout off on here all I want, it's just buttons on a greenie keyboard and hot air; what counts for real is supporting the orgs that are doing something tangible and real for our sport. exit soap-box.
Instead of piddling about the 2 cents a year you inadvertantly donate to the sierra club per, donate to the groups you agree with, if you donate at all? If not, then STFU is a good place to start.
Shoot maybe we oughtta wise up and start a sledder organization that donates to the sierra club. Then we'd have a voice within their org and could plot from within! An extreme example I suppose, but that's basically what your seeing when companies, you might think are "on your side", are supporting these organizations. They're whoores for money, and don't think that a big donation from Weyerhauser is refused or doesn't go un-noticed. Sierra club is still going to beat them up on some issues, but they will give concessions on others. My example is simplistic, but you better believe this is how buisiness' operate when it comes to pleasin the greenies. Green is a big market segment and no business can afford to ignore it. Maybe if us sledders banned together and acted more like a business (as sierra club has) we would get more concessions too.
Don't get all worked up about the 2 bucks that you would have inadvertantly donated to the greenies this year, (hey I don't shop REI or whatever either, but i'm not fooling myself that i'm "pure" either) instead, give as much as you can to the orgs that are fighting for your rights (a lot more than 2 bucks!). I can spout off on here all I want, it's just buttons on a greenie keyboard and hot air; what counts for real is supporting the orgs that are doing something tangible and real for our sport. exit soap-box.
K
kssnow987
Well-known member
That's a good point Sawyer, Gortex pays for 100% of Klims addvertising budget, getting snowmobiliers to by Klim products so they can support the Greenies. Now that's ironic. How about we all support HMK for a while. I think they have some great products and I know the owner, Kirk, supports us!
Well, that about closes the book on this topic...
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Gent's,
It is a lot more complicated than that. Unless you have been through the Gore Tex factory I would be careful about the comparisons of copy cat fabrics.NOBODY has spent more money and time and effort to build quality snow gear than Klim. Do you think the competition has four full time designers working on ways to make better snow clothing year round? Gore Tex pulled the license from all other snow clothing manufacturers. Why? because they believe in "Garenteed to keep your dry" for the life of the garment. None of the OEM'S or other companies wanted anything to do with that type of warranty (which obviously benefits us the users) Why, because they know it is not just the Gore Tex membrane it is the fabrics around it that make it work. When Klim decides to bring out a new product they tell Gore Tex what the want to accomplish and Gore Tex designs all of the fabrics. It is way more complicated than you think, laminating 4 different types of fabric together to make a garment work. Imagine this: Gore Tex lets the smaller air molecules escape out through your layers and eventually out through the shell to keep you dry and at the same time keeps the larger water molecules from getting in to also keep you dry. If you think you can just use any old nylon based fabric (Castle, FXR, Arctiva, HMK) to allow the Gore Tex to work you would be incorrect. Simply try them.
O
oregunrmk
Active member
Again, how do you know this, are you an accountant for Klim?
One question. How many of you naysayers belong to a club. Have you donated to saws? Have you put any of your sweat and time into maintaining your local trail system or cut firewood for your warming hut, or worked on your groomer? If you have thank you for keeping our sport going and you are entitled to your opinion, if not get off your *** or STFU.
Rant over, Sorry, cannot stand seeing people beotch and not lifting a finger to help. Remember, if all of us just paid our yearly dues and thats it. We wont be able to take our grandchildren riding.
"Gore Tex pulled the license from all other snow clothing manufacturers"
Where exactly did you here this? I am sure Arcteryx (sp) would be interested to know that.
And anyone who thinks that they can shop on a day to day basis and not support the green adgenda is on glue, its like trying to buy products not made in China!!!!
Where exactly did you here this? I am sure Arcteryx (sp) would be interested to know that.
And anyone who thinks that they can shop on a day to day basis and not support the green adgenda is on glue, its like trying to buy products not made in China!!!!
From the Arcteryx website:
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New this season, our high performance waterproof/breathable Hardshells are made with GORE-TEX® Pro Shell; the most breathable and durable GORE-TEX® fabric to date. GORE-TEX® Pro Shell’s Micro Grid woven backer works synergistically with our lamination construction techniques, allowing our Ascent and Descent Hardshells to be lighter and more supple while delivering superior breathability and durability.
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1. This is not sled clothing sold in any Powersports shop I have ever seen
2. It is not designed for use with sleds...get some fuel on it and see what happens
3. Gore Tex "Pro Shell" is simply the outer laminate....and has a higher wear resistance then standard Gore outer laminates. It is not the Gore Tex membrane that is used to keep you dry.
4. They conveniently don't tell you what their waterproofing membrane is.
I stand by my statement..
Mj
Any Arcteryx outer wear I have purchased is Gortex XCR, I use it on the recomendation of my buddies who run snow cats for a living and deal with diesel fuel, hyd fluid and snowmobile fuel/oil on a daily basis. I have seen Acteryx Shells perform for weeks covered in diesel, oil, dirt etc. throw it in the wash when you get a chance and it comes back like new. The stuff is bullet proof and proven and has a great warrantee. I use it because it works. Water PROOF and Wind PROOF and BREATHABLE!!!!
That is EXACTLY how TOBE's membrane works and it is not Gore-Tex. There is a thriving competitive market for Waterproof membranes. If you only want to wear Gore-Tex that is fine, but it must be known that their are other membranes that work on the exact same principles. You have a choice in high end SNOWMOBILE gear now.
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