Timbersled or CMX

[wwillf01]

First, You and Allen are friends so it is only right you should try and be his wing man and defend his products and choices. After all, either he named it for you or you got the nickname / moniker from him (Yes, I read that here too).

I've read plenty on of posts on the lack of durability inherent to the TS drive train; Specifically the shafts and bearings which are a result of torsional flex and a general lack of stiffness in the entire assembly. I do not save or bookmark everything I read so I can defend my opinion of the item in question. And even if I did; with SnoWest what it is, and their protectionism for certain preferred vendors the bad press / reviews would quite likely be irradiated prior to times like this.

When both the shafts, the key / keyway are twisted and rolled and next to impossible to remove / replace without cutting them in multiple pieces to remove (from posts I've read), that indicates to me that the shafts are too soft and should have been heat treated and that they should have been machined to tighter tolerances so the key does not roll in the keyway. My guess is the key is too short and the sprocket is also too narrow to live in that application from the reports of that occurring. When the single bearing setup is getting wiped out and they just throw a double bearing setup at it. In lieu of spending some money to increase the quality / stiffness of the shafts and the mounting points; that is a bandaid approach, as I've previously stated.

I don't own a bike nor any of the "kits" for them for one simple reason; the biggest attraction for a snow bike kit manufacture is to use an existing platform that already meets emissions requirements, so they don't have to invest any real expense into their "kit". That is also the largest draw back to them all, IMO as well, because the balance / performance will never be correct with a bike designed to be balanced on wheels.

My opinions are solely based on sound engineering principals and 35+ years working in the mechanical arena for a living, and having to fix stupid ill conceived designs to insure 99-100 percent reliability for the corporations I've been employed by.

My biggest fear is not the initial cost of the Yeti... It is when you tank the tunnel on a rock and have to replace the tunnel.... I would think...... it will be pretty damn pricey... Already done this once on the timbersled and it came out to close to 500 which was expensive enough for me....


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[summitboy]

Each to their own when it comes to choosing their poison. Brand loyalty is a interesting study in human design LOL.

LoudHandle speaks the truth about the TS rigidity issues which have been well talked about in this forum. We have all dealt with the bearing issues and soft shaft issues for years up until the dual row setup which is a bandaid fix for a much bigger problem. If you like it roll with it, if you don't send your kit down the road. Simple. Even though you are a TS brand loyalist doesn't mean we can't come on this snowbike forum and talk about it just because you think TS is the greatest stuff since sliced bread. I've spent my hard earned money on TS products for years and years. I have fixed it and updated over and over and spent money on update after update. I'm done with TS for now.

The Yeti is new. People on here think they know the Yetis durability which is impossible because there have been almost zero production kits on the snow. The kits that the camera jockeys took pictures of during testing were very under built such as tunnel thickness, belt width, arm thickness and various other aspects. Many things have been overbuilt for production. The testing process has been very well thought out to minimize the issues that have occurred in competitors kits. Just look at their website and watch some of the durability tests. The design and perfect tolerance mantra that has been engineered sets this kit far far above anything that is offered currently imo. Does this mean it will be 100% perfect ? We are gonna find out. I think we will be surprised in durability and performance.

Some peeps can't handle when people start knocking their beloved brand of choice LOL. I guess it hurts in some bizarre way. I believe in freedom of speech and when someone takes my money and the product turns out to be less than stellar u can bet I'm gonna talk about it. There are a lot of kits on the market this year and TS/Polaris will lose some market share imo. Having said that they will be around for many years imo. This sport still has a lot of growing.

Now for those of you who want to throw me some bad ratings..........feel free !

 

[M5-]

I think you will be pretty hard pressed to destroy a Yeti tunnel. If that were to happen you'd likely have some other issues like a destroyed body. You are correct in that if you do wreck it it'll be expensive but I don't see that happening.

As for the TS performance I posted a thread a while back showing what happened to my driveshaft due to the side flex pics and all. It is a real and documented issue. Even when I did my dual row bearing upgrade I didn't like how it all went together, there's just too much play in the alignment with the plate design and the oversize bolt holes they use.

I don't think there is any denying that TS has to be credited with advancing the snow bike sport but IMO their design is getting long in the tooth. For me this is the wait and see who floats to the top of the heap season then I will make the switch but as it stands now I don't see myself buying another TS as there just isn't enough improvement over what I already own to justify it.

M5

 

[SEOINAGE]

Each to their own when it comes to choosing their poison. Brand loyalty is a interesting study in human design LOL.

LoudHandle speaks the truth about the TS rigidity issues which have been well talked about in this forum. We have all dealt with the bearing issues and soft shaft issues for years up until the dual row setup which is a bandaid fix for a much bigger problem. If you like it roll with it, if you don't send your kit down the road. Simple. Even though you are a TS brand loyalist doesn't mean we can't come on this snowbike forum and talk about it just because you think TS is the greatest stuff since sliced bread. I've spent my hard earned money on TS products for years and years. I have fixed it and updated over and over and spent money on update after update. I'm done with TS for now.

The Yeti is new. People on here think they know the Yetis durability which is impossible because there have been almost zero production kits on the snow. The kits that the camera jockeys took pictures of during testing were very under built such as tunnel thickness, belt width, arm thickness and various other aspects. Many things have been overbuilt for production. The testing process has been very well thought out to minimize the issues that have occurred in competitors kits. Just look at their website and watch some of the durability tests. The design and perfect tolerance mantra that has been engineered sets this kit far far above anything that is offered currently imo. Does this mean it will be 100% perfect ? We are gonna find out. I think we will be surprised in durability and performance.

Some peeps can't handle when people start knocking their beloved brand of choice LOL. I guess it hurts in some bizarre way. I believe in freedom of speech and when someone takes my money and the product turns out to be less than stellar u can bet I'm gonna talk about it. There are a lot of kits on the market this year and TS/Polaris will lose some market share imo. Having said that they will be around for many years imo. This sport still has a lot of growing.

Now for those of you who want to throw me some bad ratings..........feel free !

No, this whole thread just kind of goes over issues I had with TS anyways, and makes me more interested in a yeti, even though I kind of wanted one from the beginning. Already snow checked the TS though, I just don't see how they can't fix the rigidity issue.

 

[M5-]

Here's the driveshaft thread.

M5


http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370704&highlight=driveshaft

 

[Rush44]

Honestly this thread encompasses what to expect for this coming season. The market is in for some changes and I couldn't be more excited. I can't wait to ride the Yeti, CMXBK, and the Raptor front end to see what they are all about.

 

[speedemon]

CMX or Bust

You can't love something until you've tried it. You can't hate something until you've tried it.

After seeing the CMX sitting right next to a TS in person, the first thing you will notice is the build quality. The TS looks like something that a high school shop student designed and built. The CMX looks like something that NASA engineered.

CMX (Mark) has always been known for producing high quality products in a world where mediocrity is the standard. Prior to the CMXBK, only a few people could afford Mark's high end sleds. Now that he is in the snowbike industry, the rest of us can now afford a superior product.

There is no doubt in my mind that the new CMXBK is going to rattle the snowbike industry when it comes to performance. Of course it is something that is new and so people are going to knock it. It's only going to take a short period of time on the snow before people realize what's happened.

I'm going to be running a 129" CMXBK on a 2013 YZ this year. Will be doing quite a bit of riding with "Screech" this winter and will be shooting some videos for everyone to watch. Stay tuned...

Bang for your buck- CMX is a no brainer.

 

[SnoFro]

IMO
I don’t believe the Raptor front end can handle the punishment I put my single 10” ski and spindle through. I am rough on equipment.Last season I smoked a tree twisting over the ski.There wasn’t any damage to the bike or spindle.We twisted the ski back enough to keep riding.I put the garage furnace on high and blowing directly on the ski.The next day I was able to tweak the ski back to its original shape.I’m still riding that ski.I would be surprised if the raptor front end could take that kind of hit.I would be surprised if the forks could survive that hit without the front axle bolt.I realize not everyone like to ride the way I do.I ride my snow bike the way I used to race cross country.I am hard on plain old dirt bikes also.So I need a little more durability than most, but without sacrificing performance.As far as the Yeti goes.If the tunnel can take frequent hard hit jumps and a season through whooped out trails that’s good enough for me.I’m hoping to see a lot of new kits out on the hill.I’m hoping new manufacturers price their product to encourage people to try something new.The competition between manufactures will only lead to better products and faster R&D.It sucks for the guys spending money to update their equipment, but this helps promote the sport by making it cheaper for new guys to get into (they are buying the used stuff).The initial cost of this sport is still too high (when you compare it to snowmobiling).

So here is what I’ve decided to do for this season. I’m putting on an IceAge Nitrous kit and sticking with my 2015 TS ST kit.Please say yes when I ask you other guys if I can take it for a rip.I’m always letting people try my stuff…..But now I might disable the nitrous for some people.HaHa

I’m sorry. This was just going to be a quick little post.

 

[speedemon]

IMO
I don’t believe the Raptor front end can handle the punishment I put my single 10” ski and spindle through. I am rough on equipment.

You're not the only one who is hard on equipment...

I was initially worried about the independent front skis for the exact same reason. I assumed that I'd wind up getting trees wedged between the skis and/or bending the forks. Just looking at pictures of the independent ski system I assumed that the linkage would be loose and sloppy. But then...

I showed up at the CMX shop one day to get a closer look at the front end and realized that my initial impressions were wrong. The forks are actually tied together which beefs them up because one is always bracing the other. The geometry of the linkage also provides a smooth transition from one side to the other, very similar to what your knees do on a pair of skis going through moguls on the side of a mountain.

Here again, it's going to take some time in the field and some hours on these new machines to convince people and prove its worth.

 

[lundracing]

I am excited to see cat jump in the game. I built my first snow bike this year and it is for the birds. Give me the turn key factory eddition with warrenty please. Plus with the big guys backing them u know things will work. Don't get me wrong I am excited to try my creation but I don't like dealing with bike dealerships that don't know jack about snow and could give a care less

 

[SnoFro]

I would like to see one in person. Hell, I wanna take it for a rip.

 

[backcountryislife]

People keep talking about the front end on the CMX... but nobody talks about the ONE true issue I have with the MH... balance. the MH imo puts FAR too much pressure on the front ski, and the 3" further forward of the CMX kit is hugely obvious just standing on it on a hard floor, balance makes more sense, less ski pressure, and I can't imagine that will not transfer into a more enjoyable riding experience. I'm thinking the TSS will do SOME of that, but not in the same way. IMO there is no reason TS is this far into production & still is as far out of balance as they are. (I still friggin love my setup, but imo that's a big issue, and it should have been fixed the 2nd year)

 

[Rush44]

We used to "fix" this issue by shimming the rear suspension so the rear squats a bit more (I think we used about 2" worth of shims) on the trail and reduces overall ski pressure. I really don't think there is too much ski pressure once you get into soft snow... I think the setup is actually quite balanced. Obviously other factors come into play like fork rake (different between different models, shallower rake on some enduro models bring more ski pressure), where the user drilled the fork clamp holes, and individual bike balance.

I would agree that my race bikes have seemed more balanced than my WR was... on the old ski it was for sure front end heavy with the shallower rake and heavier bike. I had quite a few hairy trail rides home on that setup!

 

[mountainhorse]

I don't own a bike nor any of the "kits" for them, for one simple reason....That is also the largest draw back to them all, IMO as well, because the balance / performance will never be correct with a bike designed to be balanced on wheels.

I can see in this simple statement that you are "sour" on the concept of snowbikes that use a motorcycle as a drive unit... weather that is TS, Yeti or what-have-you....

There are multiple thousands of snowbike kit owners out there that would disagree with this statement.... and 99.9% of the people on this section of the forums that own snowbikes too.

All it takes is a quick look at YouTube to see the hundreds of videos that produce ear-to-ear grins for their owners.

Until you spend some seat time on a snowbike (I don't care what brand this year) with other riders on snowbikes... you will have a hard time understanding just how fun these things are.



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[Wheel House Motorsports]

I can see in this simple statement that you are "sour" on the concept of snowbikes that use a motorcycle as a drive unit... weather that is TS, Yeti or what-have-you....

There are multiple thousands of snowbike kit owners out there that would disagree with this statement.... and 99.9% of the people on this section of the forums that own snowbikes too.

All it takes is a quick look at YouTube to see the hundreds of videos that produce ear-to-ear grins for their owners.

Until you spend some seat time on a snowbike (I don't care what brand this year) with other riders on snowbikes... you will have a hard time understanding just how fun these things are.



.

Thats just his way. Everyone else does junk and his stuff and techniques are better. LOL

Apparently hes gotten sick of telling the polaris guys how much better he would make their sleds and its time to head into the Snowbike section.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

People keep talking about the front end on the CMX... but nobody talks about the ONE true issue I have with the MH... balance. the MH imo puts FAR too much pressure on the front ski, and the 3" further forward of the CMX kit is hugely obvious just standing on it on a hard floor, balance makes more sense, less ski pressure, and I can't imagine that will not transfer into a more enjoyable riding experience. I'm thinking the TSS will do SOME of that, but not in the same way. IMO there is no reason TS is this far into production & still is as far out of balance as they are. (I still friggin love my setup, but imo that's a big issue, and it should have been fixed the 2nd year)

In fairness, you must consider that not all the CMX kits can go 3" forward, only non linkage bikes which are actually a fairly small margin of bikes on the snow. Apples to apples.

New TS kits almost drag the paddles on linkage brackets. Thats as best you can do.

I have rode a custom setup TS kit with forward side plates which moved the skid 3" forward and it worked really well and was light on the ski but it almost transfered too much. Crazy to think I know! But it makes hop overs / wheelie turns REALLY easy.

 

[mountainhorse]

Lets get some perspective here.

Also... to put all of the is Hyperbole into perspective... since this stuff if getting blown out of proportion here.

I think it is a shame that these threads can get so out of hand that the casual reader, searching google about these SnowBike kits... will get a "bad feel" for the "Sport" ... For Veteran and new kit makers alike.... Or get the same "bad feel" for products that have given huge satisfaction to their owners for years.

This simply is a dis-service to our sport.

Yes, I am a "fan" of Timbersled because of their ingenuity and dedication to quality and my personal knowledge of the company.

Yes, I was out there on the mountain the first day with Allen on the first prototype of his snowbike... and when we returned, his employees named the bike "mountainhorse" using my SW "handle" as an idea for the name that stuck till now.

None of that means that I cannot appreciate the development of other makers of similar products and give credit where credit is due.

There are over 4,000 Timbersled kits out there by my estimate.. none of them were "garage" built.... They are were all done in the Timbersled dedicated commercial production facility that has, since the inception of the kit, had at least 12 full time employees (or last year, pre-merger, at over 40) , making products in the USA that pay those employees a living wage. Allen is proud of that and proud of his employees.... and the company he has built. Saying otherwise is an indication that you have no grasp of the actual situation.

These kits have been produced since the 2011 season... so for the 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 seasons (5 years of production)... they have grown in popularity... and numbers and refinements.

For this reason, unlike any of the other kits that have popped up in the last year which have ZERO units in consumers hands... I would expect some issues to be reported...and only accept a low percentage for the kit to garner such wide acceptance....Which is the situation here... a VERY low percentage.

I've looked around this very forum and only found a small number of threads that talk of driveline failures on the TS snowbikes among the hundreds of actual owners of these kits that participate in the "Snowbike section".

Of the THOUSANDS of kits out there... there are only a small number of threads on this site that indicate issues... if it were any significant percentage... you would see LOTS and LOTS of threads about this... just like you do in the snowmobile sections for their problems.

Yes, TS made an upgrade kit for the bearings... and was responsible in making sure it was retrofittable and offered it at a reasonable price for owners of older models. Most manufactures won't do this for their customers.

Is there ANY rash of posts on here about people having issues with the bearing update kit... or a 2015 bike that had this update on it....I'd venture to say NO.

Sled engines have double bearings or double-row bearings on the PTO shaft-end...certainly does not make it a "band-aid"... and those have been serving their owners very well for decades.

I would EXPECT any quality-focused company to evolve their products to be more durable and customer friendly. Which is what Timbersled did. And I hope CMX/YETI/MTX/Snowtech to do as well as time passes.

Also, as we all know, good.. or poor maintenance has a huge amount to do with satisfaction... who knows which category an owner falls into.

Since we are comparing kits in this thread... It would be fair to compare ONLY current offernings ... and not include "clapped out" or worn out early examples of kits that have ZERO influence on anything you would be considering buying this season as a new unit. That would be similar to judging a new XM/AXYS sled based on your experiences with your REV/Dragon.

1) I don't have to be a "fanboy" to know, without question, that a snowbike kit that has thousands of units out there for the last 5 years will have some issues, especially reported on a forum that this known for this... by some very talented people wrenching on them.

2) I also do not need to be critical or "ANTI-Fanboy" of a brand new product that has zero production units on the snow, in the consumers hands, to know that the kit has not had the same years of reflection/abuse/customer-relations/evolution to accurately form an opinion of, good or bad.

LH... I sincerely respect your technical expertise and experience. You have made many good contributions on the SW forums, helping people out with real world problems and coming up with some cutting-edge ideas too.
I, for one, am glad you are part of this community. So please don't take this as a personal "digg".

With that said .... Comments like this...

TS is a redneck train wreck in fit, finish, and function.

Leads people, incorrectly, to believe that these units are built poorly or lack quality control.... or are not giving their owners great satisfaction.... the same satisfaction that actually has them coming back for more... and buying new kits this year.

IMO, MOST of the riders out there are happy with their sleds or snowbikes.

Do I expect failures from the new brands of snowbike kits out there... yes... will some of those be due to owner error or other owner issues...yes... will there be product evolution in the second and subsequent years of production as they refine the design... I would expect so!

That does not mean that Yeti/CMX/MTX/Snowtech is "Having the customer do their R&D" for them however.

Almost every product out there from your trusted pickup truck to the blender in your kitchen has gone though product evolution.

Most every person on here that currently owns or has owned a modern snowbike kit is so in love with this sport that they are willing to take a gamble and also plunk down $5,000 to $11,000 + of their hard earned money on a brand new product from the 5 manufactures that has not been in the consumers hands yet this year. Now THAT makes a true "Fanboy" in my opinion...
A fanboy of making themselves happy.










I just don't see this as being any part of a "Redneck Train Wreck" ...but I guess we'll all see at the end of the season

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[LoudHandle]

First, I never said they were not fun to ride and did not give the rider pleasure.

Heck, so is an ugly fat chick, at least until your true friends find out and start giving you their honest opinion of your choice, then you start to see things in a different light.

I'm sure they are a blast when they are working correctly. That said, Briggs and Stratton mini bikes use soft keyed shafts. All production motorcycles use Heat treated splined shafts, because the load that is put on them demands it.

Buy what you want, ride what you want.

Yes, I am opinionated and I freely share that opinion. You "the reader" can choose to agree or disagree with that opinion / observation / recollection.

The average Joe consumer has the right to know what he is buying; the good and the bad, It's strengths and it's inherent weaknesses. Is that not the premise of this forum and the internet in general? To share information.

For the record; I'm not sour about snow bikes, and I try not to take anything personally, I gave up caring what others thought of me and my views decades ago.


Back to the OP question

 

[DUKHTR3]

Haha


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[adamd1979]

So Radski30....what will it be? The kit who has one very dissatisfied non-snowbiker among the manic grinning thousands, or the promising companies yet proven? Scrap it..go for the 2moto!!