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Thoughts on the new 2014 YamaCat...

I don't know about you, but I GREATLY ENJOY every ride on my Supercharged Nytro. Last week in Cooke City was Fabulous.!!

We buy Yamaha because it LASTS year after year after year and doesn't need to be replaced every other season with a new sled.
 
yup, looks like an arctic cat. definitely not built in japan. self tapping torx head screws everywhere that will strip out after removing them 2 or 3 times.

chassis is all old technology riveted sheet metal, tubing welded and bolted....no precision lightweight cast aluminum bulkhead parts....really? Yamaha has incredible technology for this (so does polaris for that matter)

the gauge, key switch, 12v outlet, handlebar pad, switches scream made in china.

the header is a hack job

the japanese yamaha engineers must be ready to slit their wrists after looking at these pics

oh and don't forget your metric AND SAE tools when you pack your lightweight tool kit
 
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How do you get to the oil filter once the motor is in the chassis? Cut a hole in the bottom of your sled? Pull the motor out? I would assume there will be a trap door somewhere but still looks like a pain in the butt to me.
 
So no chance that at 8pm Monday when cat pulls the cover off their stuff that newly installed O2 sensor doesnt come into play with a turbo that mounted to that factory cat flanget where that suitcase of a muffler is sitting?

If yami isn't gonna use that motor for long why waste the time and money to change the fuel system around?

Common THUNDERCAT...... Same setup as the 1100t but with the nytro motor. Wishful thinking yes, but not too far out of the realm of possibilities at this point.
 
How do you get to the oil filter once the motor is in the chassis? Cut a hole in the bottom of your sled? Pull the motor out? I would assume there will be a trap door somewhere but still looks like a pain in the butt to me.

The bottom Plate comes off the belly pan area. It is not bad at all.

So no chance that at 8pm Monday when cat pulls the cover off their stuff that newly installed O2 sensor doesnt come into play with a turbo that mounted to that factory cat flanget where that suitcase of a muffler is sitting?

If yami isn't gonna use that motor for long why waste the time and money to change the fuel system around?

Common THUNDERCAT...... Same setup as the 1100t but with the nytro motor. Wishful thinking yes, but not too far out of the realm of possibilities at this point.

I am on the same line of thinking as you. At first i though wait maybe cat will still have the 11t. . . But in reality why would zuki build anymore 11t's for cat when cat has teamed up with yamaha. So I am thinking nytro motor. . . . Short header with turbo mounted to it. Cooled by snow.

Me owning a 11t and having done extensive work on it I can tell you that I see so much cat on this yamaha motor. I even suspect that the 11t cat ecu is on it.

Or we are wrong and cat has droppped off the 4 stroke market and is going to stick to 2 stroke. . . But I highly doubt that.
 
--Building the 1100T another year would not be a bad thing, but whatever Cat offers will be turboed and at least match HP or beat the existing setup.

--From the press release it sounds like Yamaha will build fourstrokes and Cat will build the two strokes locally.

--Why does this engine have to a triple? Would not a twin in the same configuration be lighter? 1100T engine is quite capable to 300hp.
 
Nothing like missing out on another year of sales in the largest growing sled market.

It very apparent Yamaha does not want to be in the mountain segment!! for the last 5 years you can not have 130 hp sled as your top dog. We need to realize they do not care about it if so they would have a mtn viper this year. Marketing dept must of thought it would be a good joke to enter in to hill climb racing with turbo sleds with new front end all the stuff us every day riders need and have been buying to keep our sleds competitive. They have done the R&D just need to produce it but they do not care about mountain guy it been proven year after year. Yamaha can engineer front like skins and put it out two years ago but they just do not care about mountain guys. Been riding yamaha only for 28 year the last 5 years have been the worst for listening to us.
 
A twin would sound like a HARLEY.
Two 600cc cylinders.

More, Small Cylinders let you rev up faster and deliver a smoother powerband.
 
Progress is 2 people (companies) sharing good ideas and coming up with something great instead of 2 competing and not sharing and using each others failures to judge each other. Good chassis + Good engine = good sled
Sorry to say but our mountain segment is a small piece of the overall snowmobile pie although it is the most competitive. Ideas developed in the trail market are tested there before they hit the mountains. The Polaris was a 2010 Rush before it was a Pro, the M sled was a Firecat first for 2 yrs, the Proclimb was a race chassis for 4 yrs , the first Rev was a short track. No offence but it these guys listened to what we wanted without testing properly they would be out of business. Some ideas that hit the trail market never made the mountain segment. Thanks to real world failures in an easier environment. Would you want a new untested but ultracool sled built how you think it should be only to find yourself 3 ridges back looking for cell service and a helicopter. It happens but it would be worse without proper testing in the real world.
I believe Polaris has sold more Pro RMKs than any of their other sleds in the past few years. The mountain market could be HUGE for them IF they pursued it.
 
This is probably the BEST HINT of whats coming for a NEW YAMAHA ENGINE...


Yamaha Three-Cylinder Cross-Plane Concept
By Kevin Ash

(click on images for expanded view)
http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/ya...-plane-concept


Yamaha has intrigued the bike world with the unveiling of a prototype three-cylinder engine at Cologne, sparking some wild speculation by saying it comes with a cross-plane crankshaft.

The point of a cross-plane crank is covered in detail in this feature here:
Yamaha R1 cross-plane crankshaft feature



Yamaha R1 cross-plane crankshaft

In brief, the principle is to minimise the rotational fluctuations of the crankshaft caused by the pistons' reciprocating movement. In a conventional four-cylinder engine, at one point all four pistons are stationary, then as the crank rotates through 90 degrees, all four have accelerated to their maximum speed. 90 degrees further on again, all four are stationary once more.

This means a big change in piston inertia, from zero to maximum to zero every half turn of the crankshaft, which is constantly being transferred to and from the crankshaft. For example, when the pistons are slowing down, they're doing so by pushing against the crank, which in turn speeds up. Then as the pistons accelerate from TDC and BDC to maximum speed halfway along the bores, they're gaining inertia from the crankshaft which is pushing them, and the crank slows down.

These cyclic torque fluctuations are large in scale, in a four-cylinder superbike engine they can be of the order of plus and minus 600lb.ft (80kgm, 800Nm). This feature gives an idea of how the numbers are arrived at:
Inertial torque scale calculation feature

This is inherent in the conventional flat plane crankshaft-piston system and is proportional to the rpm, while the torque generated by combustion is overlaid on top of that. The two are referred to as combustion torque and inertial torque.



Yamaha prototype cross-plane triple

In a cross-plane four-cylinder the pistons are spaced 90 degrees apart, so there is no point at which they are all stopped or moving at the same speed together. The inertial gains of any one piston are always being cancelled out by the inertial losses of another, resulting in an even rotation speed of the crankshaft, free of inertial torque fluctuations.

Yamaha says this results in a more direct feeling for the rider, in part because whenever he opens the throttle he gets only the combustion torque, without the large inertial torque fluctuations clouding the output, and in part because there is no need for a driveline cushion (such as the springs you see in embedded in many clutch back plates) to protect the gearbox from inertial torque vibration - this also filters out feedback to the rider.

How could this be achieved in a three-cylinder engine? Yamaha has given us a clue, describing the new engine as having a cross-plane crank. Senior executive Kunihiko Miwa also said "...this means the kind of torque character that gives riders the exact torque they want when they need it," confirming the new engine will have zero inertial torque, as it's the same language used for the cross-plane R1. This rules out conventional 120 degree crank throws, which would hardly be innovative anyway as every other triple bar early Laverda Jotas uses this layout. The Jota had 180 degree crank throws, simply because its engine was a twin with an extra cylinder grafted on and Laverda only had the tooling to do it this way.



R1 and M1 engines above and behind the new three cylinder
In the Yamaha three-cylinder, cross-plane design there are two possibilities. Either the two outer pistons move up and down together, with the third following at 270 degrees, or the outer two are set at 180 degrees apart, with the centre piston at 90 degrees between them, in effect an R1 crankshaft with the end cylinder removed, an idea that fits in with Yamaha's Cologne display where the link to the R1 and cross-plane M1 MotoGP engine was made.

This is easy enough to balance, but the problem is, the inertial torque is a long way from being zero. In fact the fluctuations are similar to a single-cylinder engine of the same capacity as one of the Yamaha's three cylinders. The solution though could be with us already in a very different Yamaha, the T-Max.

T-Max crank with slave piston at 180 degrees offset

This is a parallel twin balanced by a slave piston set at 180 degrees to the cylinders. Inertial torque is at its maximum in this design but it doesn't matter, as throttle response is dulled anyway by the auto transmission. But it does show how the Yamaha three-cylinder cross-plane crank could be made to have zero inertial torque. In this, the fourth, slave piston's inertia works with the centre piston's in cancelling out the inertia of the other two. Do note this is inertia we're talking about, not out-of-balance forces, although it can cancel some of those too.


BMW F800 reciprocating balancer

There are alternatives producing the same fundamental result of zero inertial torque in the three-cylinder plus reciprocating balancer layout. One is to use instead of the slave piston a bobweight counterbalance like that in BMW's F800 twin:
BMW Reciprocating Engine Balancer feature

This is bulkier than the slave piston design but it has lower friction levels and offers additional horizontal motion components which can be carefully designed to help counterbalance vibration.

But I'm betting on a final option as it's the most elegant, lightest, lowest cost and results in a stiffer crankshaft. This still involves a fourth conrod, but rather than have its own crankpin it runs on the same crankpin as the centre cylinder (like a V-twin). This means the slave piston (or counterbalance bobweight) moves in the same rather than the opposite direction to the centre cylinder piston. At the same time, the outer two pistons would also move up and down together, firing at 360 degree intervals. Inertial torque levels are still zero (or strictly speaking, very close to zero, as in the R1), as the two pairs of pistons are moving 90 degrees out of phase with each other, but there are now large out-of-balance forces. These though are easy to counter, using a contra-rotating balance shaft in front of or behind the crank. The advantage of this design is it leaves room for a crankshaft bearing between each cylinder, a much stiffer design better suited to high revs and power outputs.

As with the R1, the exhaust note would be unique and appealingly gruff and offbeat, with possible firing intervals at 360-90-270 degrees. By comparison, the R1 has 270-180-90-180 degree intervals, showing that Yamaha is not shy of using overlapping combustion cycles just 90 degrees apart.


R1 engine - sump is more compact than smaller triple's

This all fits with the aim of cancelling inertial torque and also draws on existing Yamaha technology while moving it forward in an innovative way, exactly as the company wishes to do. There are some visual clues in the engine itself which appear to confirm these possibilities. One is the deep and bulky sump design in an otherwise very compact engine, which offers plenty of space for either a slave piston or a counter-balance bobweight. Compare this with the R1 sump, which you might expect to be larger yet it's more compact.


New triple has large balance shaft housing in front of crank

Secondly, there is very clearly a housing for a rotating balance shaft in front of the crankshaft. This is also sometimes used on conventional triples so it's not proof in itself, but the final 360 degree cross-plane design must have this, so without it the idea would be scuppered. It's bulky too, as you need to counter the primary out-of-balance forces in this design. The last clue isn't completely clear but it does look as if the spacing between cylinders one and two (numbered from left to right) is slightly greater than between two and three, which would be the case if the centre crankpin was wider and shared by two conrods.


Here's one they prepared earlier...
This is all entirely speculation
based on Yamaha's existing technology and the handful of clues from Miwa, along with external views of the engine itself. But it does fit, where a great deal of the commentary elsewhere is plainly wrong. For example, the 120 degree layout which many are suggesting does not constitute a cross-plane crankshaft. Cross-plane means lines drawn through the crankpin and crankshaft centres must form a cross when viewed from the end of the crank (which usually is inferred to mean with 90 degree angles), as is the case here. A 120 degree design forms three lines at 120 degrees to each other, which might resonate with Yamaha's triple tuning fork logo, but it's not cross-plane.

It looks like we'll find out for certain in the first half of 2013.
 
--Yamaha sponsors a RMSHA race team

--Instead of having to work around a bunch of patent design issues for a new chassis and have to compromise, they just partnered with the best OEM chassis company out there.

--Is there a better overall sled chassis out there than ProClimb? Is there a better 4s sled engine builder than Yamaha? Is there currently better a sled engine design team than at Cat?

--Best chassis with the best 4s engine == what is not to like?
 
Thats the way I feel as well.
I think in the long term this WILL pay off in spades for all of us.
But right now there sure is a lot of backlash against it!
 
--Yamaha sponsors a RMSHA race team

--Instead of having to work around a bunch of patent design issues for a new chassis and have to compromise, they just partnered with the best OEM chassis company out there.

--Is there a better overall sled chassis out there than ProClimb? Is there a better 4s sled engine builder than Yamaha? Is there currently better a sled engine design team than at Cat?

--Best chassis with the best 4s engine == what is not to like?

For what application?
To answer your questions, yeah, I think so.

Really, that's just an opinion. I'm not sure Doo or Pol riders would agree with you on that one.
 
I get it!!

I understand the marketing stratagies that Yamaha will take advantage of by going this direction with the new Viper. They will have a North American built sled which should be self explanatory in itself.

Combining resources and technology should be successful as well for both companies.

Overall, I was somewhat disappointed that Yamaha took this direction instead of staying pure and true to their own course with a new platform from their own engineers. However, this could be good for jobs in the US as the trend in recent years has been to farm out manufacturing and subsequent jobs to other countries, like Mexico.

So there are some wins here!!

I am not a fan of this Cat chassis, the skid is aged and of limited use for our Mountain applications, the chaincase is scary looking, and if it is anything like the 1100T, it will be heavy.

However, this in itself is good for the aftermarket Custom shops like ourselves. We will embrace the new Viper and work to develope and offer the required enhancements, long track tunnels, coolers, suspensions and turbo systems.

We plan to book one and will work with it.

Cheers
 
Just had a comment pass my desk.

The Yamaha Genesis Triple is 35lbs LIGHTER than the current 4 stroke Cat is using in the 1100T.

This is a side by side comparison of the two engines on a scale without accessories bolted on.

Sounds like moving over to Yamaha will be a WIN for Cat riders next year.
 
If Chris Reid says Yamaha is still going to build real Yamahas you can believe it. Straight shooter. Until I read that I thought it was a merger thing too.

It's weird, but I think I see the plan now. When Yamaha first entered the sled game they had some fails but eventually changed the game after a decade. The use of Cat chassis stuff (they're all pretty much the same now anyway) will make their own developement go quicker and smoother and finally involve the NA team more (cause you don't have to worry about spy photos, you can just paint them green now lol).
From the photos I see a different center of gravity, stronger drive train without the "thicker wallet plate" lol, and surpisingly HPG's speced as shocks instead of just gabbing the Fox's off the AC shelves. I'll bet they don't use a single valve stack from AC even though they are using the AC suspention geometry and probably will bring their own bearings into the plant hidden in their lunchboxes lol.

The other thing is real Yamaha's will always need to cost more. First they are built better because of materials, design and technology, they pay more for labour (keep it home grown), they have to ship further, and they pay more tariffs. So how does a salesman justify the extra cost to a non-blue bleeder? Have a discount line on the floor beside it! "Her you go Sir. This one is $ 13,000 and this one is $15,000. You wanna know why??"
I had a chuckle when I pictured QC Yamaha employees watching AC employees assembling the Yamacats lol. Japanese are usually pretty polite but how many times will they watch a spring, bolt, screw or rivet fall into an airbox before they step in lol. How many will last their whole NA shift until they commit Hairy Carry lol.

I doubt I will still get to buy a Yamaha anytime soon though. They have to start a NA mountain team first. Hire someone with experience like Rasmussen and give him some help. Mountain sleds can be built from flatland sleds with lots of holes drilled in them (we've all done it) but the best are fine tuned and lightened up in the mountains of NA. The rest of the world just gets to benefit from it.
 
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