The new sleds won't be getting much better..

[high time]

You might like the feel of your Cat compared to the Doo, or maybe a Polaris fits your style. But what I'm seeing is that our mountain riding equipment is where it might be for many years. Sure a couple of HP here and there, a slight improvement once and a while, but for the most part, we've got what we need, and it probably won't change now.
For three years we've been debating minor points, compared to major ones back in the early two thousands.
This might be a good thing. Now they can improve quality and depenability.

I don't think I want a lighter sled if it's going to break. I don't even need a lot more power, if it puts the engine on the edge. I don't need a one thousand if it weighs more. The current eight hundred mountain sled are great.

Owen

 

[Braaap12]

cool thanks for the heads up...................

 

[theultrarider]

Other than the pure highmark crowd, the weights are as about as light as they can go and be rideable. I agree, I don't want to fold a sled dropping a cornice in the backcountry. I end up bracing them as they are now. I will take strength over more wieght loss. Same for the hp wars. I don't want a turbo, I want my 800 w aobut 160hp of pull rope and go. There will be refinements in the efi end of things. They are still dinosaurs compaired to the auto industry or even the bikes. They will, and need to get better. Especially the poo's. Clutching as always is where the industry as a whole can make the next great break through in technology. Getting more of the hp to the ground in a more efficent manner, and quit popping $200 blets every day out when in killer snow. There must be a better way. Someone will find this....someday

 

[snowmobiler]

i wouldnt dought if we loose a brand by next winter

 

[springer]

I totally disagree! If the custom builder and the people that really don't care on how much they spend can build a sled at 420 or less pounds,so could the manufactures!! I have two IQR mt.conversions, both are under 425 lbs.and both are bullett-proof.However,there where some thought choices along the way.Choices that I had control over and not the EPA! The EPA is the single biggest reason we do not have what we truely need or want. Think about it,how many jobs,how much money is at stake because of one rule change? We are kiddin ourselfs if we think that the cost of EPA regulation will not be passed onto the consumer! The manufactures are suffering the effects on the last over reaching rule change with emissions.They can't possible take on everything else at the same time. We have to wake up! If you don't , you won't have to worry about next year's new sleds!!!!!!!

 

[theultrarider]

I totally disagree! If the custom builder and the people that really don't care on how much they spend can build a sled at 420 or less pounds,so could the manufactures!! I have two IQR mt.conversions, both are under 425 lbs.and both are bullett-proof.However,there where some thought choices along the way.Choices that I had control over and not the EPA! The EPA is the single biggest reason we do not have what we truely need or want. Think about it,how many jobs,how much money is at stake because of one rule change? We are kiddin ourselfs if we think that the cost of EPA regulation will not be passed onto the consumer! The manufactures are suffering the effects on the last over reaching rule change with emissions.They can't possible take on everything else at the same time. We have to wake up! If you don't , you won't have to worry about next year's new sleds!!!!!!!

The sled makers are not facing anything here that the auto industry,boating world and motorcycles have not faced already. Most of you on here are too young to remember the 2 stroke street bikes of years past. What do you think happened to the these? The 4 strokes were better??? Maybe, but that is not what killed them. The epa did. Same is happeneing in the boating world. Just like the sledding industry, who wants to hang an extra 100lbs or more on the back of their boat? Well I now have a 150hp yammi 4stroke hanging back there. Sure, it's a great motor, but it does not running any stronger or better than a 2 stroke. Sure is heavy! Had to move alot of things around in the boat to try to balance things back out so it would sit alright in the water. Of course the manufactures are going to pass on the extra costs of meeting the epa. The all have and all will. They must make a dollar. But the must also meet the fed rules, which we do not have to do when we start building mod sleds. We held our 1st ever indoor supercross race at the Sullivan arena last fall. When the 2 strokes bikes ran, all h3ll broke loose. They were asked to stage them outdoors and warm them up before their motos outdoors and not allowed inside til just before their gate dropped. It was very smokey in there I will admit. To some, 2smoke fumes is a drug, to others, it is a headache and a possible cancer.... I lvoe the smell of 2stroke in the morning lol. That does not matter. My gut tells me that when we have this event again this fall, even the little 50's will be banned from inside....wait a minute, they have already been banned to the sale of those who race them because of lead poisioning!!! Point is, like it or not, big brother is here, and here to stay. Just like all the diesel guys pulling the dpf's off their new trucks so the can get more fuel mileage out of them. The manufactures have to put them on there, the have no chioce. They would love to leave them off and build a truck with more power,better mileage, and less cost. They have no choice. Now some will no doubt pull the dpf's and have a warrentee issue and go crying that they now have no warrentee on their trucks. Btw, my cat is gone on powerstroke too, long since out of warrentee. It is the workd in which we live in. Not the manufactures fault.

 

[knee deep in it]

lot of truth in this thread. I ride a crotch rocket and they peaked in 2004. Since then, safety regulations have got in the way of any real improvements in speed.

Like crotch rockets, the improvements will be in comfort, rideability, reliability, looks

 

[iliketoridefast]

very very true. im only 17 but not long ago motorcycles in the superbike class were 500 2 strokes, then they said HEY THATS TOO MUCH FUN AND TOO EASY so they introduced 1000 4 strokes and still lost. then said you could only run the 1000s so everyone switched. just like dirtbikes. they had to double cc s to get similar power. i ride a modified yz 250 and will not ride a 450. also have not ridden with any 450 that can out do me. i rode a 450 and they are considerally heavier and a ***** to start once hot even with hot start button

 

[MTdream]

my opinion, your generally accurate...Probably more specialization like we have been seeing with the assault and the XTX, etc.

There is only so much weight you can shave when you have these basic components...

Engine/drive train @ 120lbs.
Track@ 50-60 lbs.
Suspension (front+back)@ 75+ lbs.
bulkhead+ tunnel@ 30-40 lbs.
Seat/hoods/gauges/wiring harnesses/gas tank etc. 100lbs.

You can argue about a few pounds here and there, but the real development (IMHO) will be in atack angle, track development, and HP efficiency...at the end of the day, we are only getting 50% of the listed HP (assuming sea-level) hitting the ground...So, if someone can increase taht and the torque to teh ground (or whatever the tech term)

just my two bits...

 

[Samurai]

I agree for the most part about your comments. In the case of A.C. though I believe they are miles away in the production of their rear skid. The AC rear suspensions are pure chitttttttt. Until a person rides a good suspension, one has no idea how bad they really are for mountain riders.Even if they have to add a couple lbs. it would be worth it to make it right.
And hang the graphics guy from the tallest tree

 

[JSun]

I believe there are still many areas that could be greatly improved on current snowmobiles.

First off, there is room for improvement in the current drive systems. Weight can definitely be lost, and efficiency can improved.

Secondly, motors will continue to become cleaner and more efficient, and more power will be developed by smaller motors without sacrificing reliability. This will also subtract weight.

Third, suspensions will continue to develop, becoming lighter and more comfortable, and possibly radically different (RUSH).


Sure there are engineers working on improving durability and quality as they should, but in a competitive market place, companies know that to stay in the game, sometimes you need to re-invent it. Due to the current state of the economy, we may not see a "game-changing" breakthrough for a couple years, in which case you would be right, but I DO NOT think we've reached the lower limit for weight without sacrificing reliability, and I do not think the snowmobile industry has reached a technological plateau like the motorcycle world....yet.

 

[Merlin]

For three years we've been debating minor points, compared to major ones back in the early two thousands.
Owen

I agree Owen, and until those minor points become major points I'll continue to ride my "outdated" Edge chassis..............

 

[winter brew]

Havn't we been saying this since about 1998? They will continue to evolve and improve.

 

[Mn Mtn Man]

Cat

Hi Owen,
you want improvement? Tell your son to get Cat to make a 200 HP turbo 4-stroke mtn sled, please!!!!!

 

[triple7]

very very true. im only 17 but not long ago motorcycles in the superbike class were 500 2 strokes, then they said HEY THATS TOO MUCH FUN AND TOO EASY so they introduced 1000 4 strokes and still lost. then said you could only run the 1000s so everyone switched. just like dirtbikes. they had to double cc s to get similar power. i ride a modified yz 250 and will not ride a 450. also have not ridden with any 450 that can out do me. i rode a 450 and they are considerally heavier and a ***** to start once hot even with hot start button

Well you best come on out to the race tracks...We have 250 four strokes that put it on 250 two strokes. Let alone our 450s. They are the baddest dirt motorcycles ever built. Period.

However, I totally agree that the epa is the root of a huge amount of problems with all powersports. That includes boats, atv's, sleds, and motorcycles. The snowmobile industry is faced with a tougher position than most. Snowmobiles are a niche market. Their market share is of overall powersports is small. Really small. But, the EPA doesnt care that the money needed for r&d isnt there. They make rules based off of ideas or desires that may or may not follow logic or sound reason. They demand what they want. They dont care about any well being of the manufactures or what we as the consumer want.

So, with that being said the epa is going to continue with demands, even with shrinking numbers of sales. The easiest way for those demands to be met across fleet averages is with the use of four strokes. That is what the other forms of motorsports turned to, sleds will head that direction as well imo. I really dont care what powers my toy. Two stroke or four stroke it just doesnt matter to me if it does the job. The issue I see is that the current sales numbers do not warrant the development dollars to build four stroke sleds that will be the weight I want. Motocross bikes were able to be built close enough to the weight of two stroke bikes that the ridability caused everyone to switch. It could be done with snowmobiles too. A four stroke could be built that is close enough to the weight of two strokes and met all the regulations. It would take over. However, what I am afraid of is the r&d money not existing to have sleds produced that meet all the epa bs and are still fun in the mountains...I guess we will see...

 

[Desperado]

My 97 RMK was better than my 89 Exiter, my 2000 RMK was better than my 97, my 03 escape is better than my 2000, and my newest sled an 09 M8 is better than my 03 escape. Would the same advancments in motor technology made the leaps if there hadn't been some sort of mandated regulation? Maybe, maybe not, like it or not those regulations have gotten us better equipment to ride and I personally don't see that as a bad thing. I remember my 73 yamaha blowing raw gas fumes into my snow suit and never being able to get the smell of gas/oil fumes off my cloths. I don't miss that. Now the added cost to this stings (BAD) but it is the world we live in.

 

[no_dice6]

Well you best come on out to the race tracks...We have 250 four strokes that put it on 250 two strokes. Let alone our 450s. They are the baddest dirt motorcycles ever built. Period.QUOTE]

I know this is a little off topic, but KTM 380s(50hp), KTM 440s(59hp), KTM 550s(61hp), CR500s(55hp) and KX500s(56hp) will put a spanking on a 450(right at or less than 50hp). And they were all built in the mid 90s. But I can see why you would think that a bike with a similar size engine with less power and is heavier is the baddest dirt bike ever.

 

[SAWYER]

I hope they do focus on little details for a while instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every 3 years. Anymore they don't get the bugs worked out of one model and they are on to the next

 

[94fordguy]

I hope they do focus on little details for a while instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every 3 years. Anymore they don't get the bugs worked out of one model and they are on to the next

Agreed, get it right and enjoy it a bit instead of coming up with a questionable design and just giving up on it...

 

[hilinerider]

I hope they do focus on little details for a while instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every 3 years. Anymore they don't get the bugs worked out of one model and they are on to the next

why not they have us for r and d