Technical Clutching/Gearing Help Needed!!!

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Exactly. I too would stay with the lower gearing and try the helix. Then again, I am about 240 and can use the lower gearing to give the belt and clutches a break. We also tend to do alot more boondocking than full out highmarking or chute pulling. Therefore our belt temps stay better in check that way and still have more topend left than what your motor will pull on a steep pull. Like Mike said (aksnowrider) there is more than one way to end up with the same result more or less. The key is to match it to your style of riding and conditions. Don't be afraid to expieriment! You can always change it back if you don't like it. That is the best way to learn what really works and what does not. It takes alot of time to get it right, but it is so sweet when it is.

Tims is right...one thing on the dragons with the 5.1..they suck for hookup in all but certain types of powder...our buddy doug put on a clinic for us last year when he swapped out for a 2.5 camo extreme..where we were all close on the hill before(m-8's, v. escapes well modded, dragon-8's)..doug changes track and drop and roll on hi D-7..and made us all look dumb in several differnt riding areas...was such a big difference in hookup that I just had curt at fastrax motorsports send me both the track and the D&R for my sled....but alot of people leave alot of performance under the hood because they dont think great clutching is worth the effort...it is....

 

[Bubba700]

Thanks for the info. Right now the 5.1 hooks up well for me ( Snow is pretty dry here and I don't ride setup stuff, schedule lets me ride right after big dumps) Looking at maybe going camo since the current one is getting haggard after 2400miles.

Back to the clutching stuff.

I rarely get into climbing and when I do its to get to the next area. So I want to keep the lower gears , 19/42, Cause they seem to do better in tighter tree riding/boondocking. By going to something steeper like an intial angle of 62ish it should help the spinning/trenching issue but how is that going to effect the backshift? Do you need to go to a stiffer spring? Lighter spring?

On the helix listings there is three numbers, what are they? I've gathered that the 1st one is the intial shift angle, 2nd is the finish angle correct?, 3rd ?

 

[theultrarider]

Bubba

You are correct on the helix. The first number is the intial angle. The 2nd number is the second angle. The 3rd number is how long the 1st angle stays into play. The lower the number, the shorter the duration of the 1st angle of the helix. I am pretty sure aksnowrider is still running the stock black/purple spring in his secondary. I have ridden his sled on multiple occasions and can tell you that sled flats gets it. The tach never wiggles. Punch it from a dead stop in the deep and it goes straight to 8300ish and never moves no matter transition from soft to hard and back to soft snow. Or wheelie over a bench then biting hard ect... nothing fazes his sled. Mine is close, (800 mod edge) but not as good as his is.

Now for the track. Aksnowrider mentioned above that we got schooled last year by a mutual freind. It was in a super dry light powder day! We never expected the extreme to perform the way it did that day. Hard pack yes. Or Warm spring snow yes. Truth be told in those conditons Mike and I could still hang with Doug and his 700 Dragon. But in the dry fluff, we looked at each other and finally shut ours off. It was that bad. That track flat works. Mike has one coming for his sled and I wish I could afford to put one under mine this year. If so, I would in a minute. Good luck getting yours dialed in. What evelations do you ride? Sounds like you ride very similar to the way Mike and I do.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Thanks for the info. Right now the 5.1 hooks up well for me ( Snow is pretty dry here and I don't ride setup stuff, schedule lets me ride right after big dumps) Looking at maybe going camo since the current one is getting haggard after 2400miles.

Back to the clutching stuff.

I rarely get into climbing and when I do its to get to the next area. So I want to keep the lower gears , 19/42, Cause they seem to do better in tighter tree riding/boondocking. By going to something steeper like an intial angle of 62ish it should help the spinning/trenching issue but how is that going to effect the backshift? Do you need to go to a stiffer spring? Lighter spring?

On the helix listings there is three numbers, what are they? I've gathered that the 1st one is the intial shift angle, 2nd is the finish angle correct?, 3rd ?

Bubba, in the super fresh deep champayne snow best performance I have gotten is with a 62/42/.46 helix. problem is I didnt like the 5mph roll and turn straight up full throttle climb, feel of it after 2-3 days of the snow setting up...which led me to trying quite a bit of different things...what finally got the feel I was looking for was this helix with stock secondary spring, 3 delrins, Slp green/pink primary spring with mtx weights..so far of all the stuff I have tried I like this the best....now I did try a helix with 2 * less initial angle and for someone who rides alot of setup snow it is a better choice I think...now with the 10 update and changing over to the camo x,I may be back to square one again but I dont think so...most likely it should work about right ....as for the snow..I ride 8-9 different areas..all powder..so far I have only found 1 place the 5.1 really hooks hard.everywhere else I ride it does not hook as hard(hard to feel but if you really pay attention you can feel it....)

 

[Bubba700]

So just to make sure Im processing strait ( and to make it easy for others). The stock helix is 56/42/.36 so it shift out at a 56 degree rate for the first 36% of the shift then shallows to the 42 degree shift rate?
Mike's 62/42/.46 shift quicker at 62 degrees for the first 46% percent of the shift then finishes the same as the stocker?

Just getting ready to go through my secondary and replace the spring and am planning on putting the derilins in when I do it. Next ? will be opinion since you both rides 8's but would a 700 pull the steeper 62?


I remember seeing an exploded view of the team roller with arrows pointing to where the washers need to be placed but can't seem to find it. Will some one who has that diagram post it here? Think it would be some good info to have in this thread.

Thanks for the info guys. I know lots of newer riders are in the same boat as I am in that we are willing to tinker and try stuff out but we just don't know what is what sometimes. Nice to have a source to ask this stuff.

Also Ultra We start at about 6k feet here and ride all the way up to around 11k in some areas. Majority of everything goes on at 8 to 9 though.

 

[theultrarider]

Bubba,

The duration is not measured in a percent, but rather in terms of tenths of inches but you have the right idea. You ride higher than we do here which is what I would have expected. We start out a sea level very often and end up riding between 2-5000 for the most part. Mike does run up to 6-8000 on occasion.

As for the delrin washers, one on each end of the spring. Then there is a large metal cup/washer that goes between the spring and the clutch half. Pull this out, and put the 3rd washer between those. Hope this makes sense to you. I have no pics of that.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

So just to make sure Im processing strait ( and to make it easy for others). The stock helix is 56/42/.36 so it shift out at a 56 degree rate for the first 36% of the shift then shallows to the 42 degree shift rate?
Mike's 62/42/.46 shift quicker at 62 degrees for the first 46% percent of the shift then finishes the same as the stocker?

Just getting ready to go through my secondary and replace the spring and am planning on putting the derilins in when I do it. Next ? will be opinion since you both rides 8's but would a 700 pull the steeper 62?


I remember seeing an exploded view of the team roller with arrows pointing to where the washers need to be placed but can't seem to find it. Will some one who has that diagram post it here? Think it would be some good info to have in this thread.

Thanks for the info guys. I know lots of newer riders are in the same boat as I am in that we are willing to tinker and try stuff out but we just don't know what is what sometimes. Nice to have a source to ask this stuff.

Also Ultra We start at about 6k feet here and ride all the way up to around 11k in some areas. Majority of everything goes on at 8 to 9 though.

bubba, the third number is the distance in inches that the first angle is machined......46in. vrs .36...so a .36in. distance means it will shift out of the initial angle at about 14-15 mph..at .46 it will shift out at about 17-18 mph...as for 7 vrs 8..I would try less helix...something on 60/40/.36 if it was me especially with the higher altitude...everything else should work...as for the delrins..real easy..they go on the end of the spring..I put 1 on top 2 on the bottom ...some only run 1 some 2, I did 3 to bump spring tension just a bit...I have found that the more weight and spring you run in the primary the more forgiving the clutching is for altitude changes/snow load vrs a light weight/spring setup..but you still need to balance the front setup to the back setup..also the steeper you go on helix angle the slower the back shift(hence more seconday tension to recoop the backshift(or balance it ))..have you considered going to the new tied secondary from team..I am told it is a much better clutch then the 04...you might see what carls and slp is showing for clutching for the 7 ..my stuff is a cross between their 8 stuff with a different frt spring then either runs...

 

[Bubba700]

Thanks for the correction and info on where they go.
Sounds pretty strait forward. And thought about the new tied from them but at this point I am working on a students budget so Im working with what I got. Prob do the Fbomb track mod to stiffen things up a bit before I go Camo just to save $.

Have a good place to start from , now just need some snow

 

[theultrarider]

Now to really confuse you Bubba, slp offers a "shim" to space the roller assembly in the secondary that will essentially turn a turn .46 to a .36 helix. A good tuning option rather than buying a new helix. Actually I don't believe it was a full .10" but you get the point. For my sled, it was something that worked. But then again, I'm on an edge mod and not a dragon. Good clutching is an addiction. Once you have been on a well clutched sled, it is hard to ride one that is not. Don't be afraid to experiement. Just keep notes of what worked and what did not.

 

[Going Up]

Great information guys. So one question I have is if the stock helix (56/42/.36) and the one you are running (62/42/.46) have the same finishing angle are you going to see a difference with this helix in a full throttle climb? Or is it just at the bottom end (more bottom end acceleration?)

 

[thefullmonte]

Great information guys. So one question I have is if the stock helix (56/42/.36) and the one you are running (62/42/.46) have the same finishing angle are you going to see a difference with this helix in a full throttle climb? Or is it just at the bottom end (more bottom end acceleration?)

You shouldn't see a difference with full shift out or anything past the initial angle.
You can correct to some extent the back shift of a steep angle helix with a stiffer spring. The stock black/purple is a 160/240 some have gone to a 160/260. I actually run a 160/280. The initial pressure stays the same, but builds pressure more quickly.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Great information guys. So one question I have is if the stock helix (56/42/.36) and the one you are running (62/42/.46) have the same finishing angle are you going to see a difference with this helix in a full throttle climb? Or is it just at the bottom end (more bottom end acceleration?)

You shouldn't see a difference with full shift out or anything past the initial angle.
You can correct to some extent the back shift of a steep angle helix with a stiffer spring. The stock black/purple is a 160/240 some have gone to a 160/260. I actually run a 160/280. The initial pressure stays the same, but builds pressure more quickly.

got drawn back to this thread, one thing I have noticed...the initial angle does seem to play a role in final shiftout track speed ...I have noticed with the steeper initial angle helix with same finsih angle as a helix with a smaller initial angle does seem to pull more final angle track speed..I dont see it on every sled, but I do see it quite a bit..normally to the tune of 1-2 mph..hard to explain but I think it has to do with how much faster it upshifts while ground speed is still low...it is allowing the secondary to stay in a higher gear once ground speed picks up...just food for thought....

 

[volcano buster]

Any comments on primary clutch spring rate? This would be the pounds of pressure required to move it 1"?

I'm scratching my head thinking this rate affects the speed of which a motor revs up from idle.