C
clutch man
Well-known member
Man, I love these oil discussions. Almost as fun as politics.
Everybody has an opinion and everybody's right.
Ding, Ding
Bring out the gloves.
Thunder
i like it, it is great
Synthetic Oil - why?
- Thread starter Coldfinger
- Start date
i like it, it is great
The research is where? I haven't seen it. The reason for synthetics in snowmobiles is supposedly for the exhaust valves. In fact, my exhaust valves require no more cleaning on dino than they do synthetic. I see this echo'ed all over the forums.
The reason they want you to switch is $$$$ pure and simple.
I love the claim of 5000 miles on a Polaris 800 bottom end. What do you do, ride the trails with my grandma?
J
JasonAK
Well-known member
Is this one of your test sleds (2004?)? The one with 2000 miles? How many years did it take you to put that many miles on it?
huh
Ok maybe the jury is not out on snowmobiles,so they say, but all other motor sports and bearing tests it sure is!!!! It is all about the cranks.JMO
Ok maybe the jury is not out on snowmobiles,so they say, but all other motor sports and bearing tests it sure is!!!! It is all about the cranks.JMO
C
clutch man
Well-known member
It is not a claim it is a fact. go to what is the proper oil ratio in the Arctic cat m series post 17 here is part of that post.
PS just FYI i have 6 mod 800 Polaris rmks out there running 50/1 and none have any problems at all rebuilt a 2000 one at 5130 miles did not have to replace any bearings on the crank just new pistons seals and gaskets. This motor has twin pipes, high comp heads, reeds, ported and bored carbs, runs 8300 rpm and has always ran 50/1 Amsoil. that sled came back to me later with over 7200 miles with a bad clutch, one new clutch and back on the snow and still had 152 lb comp in the cyls and runs very strong.
just tell me how many motors have you rebuilt?
C
clutch man
Well-known member
That is not one of the motor test sled that is the one i ride and I get very little time to ride. I am fixins sleds i the middle of the winter, not much time to ride.
C
clutch man
Well-known member
I dunno, I had 4,250 trouble free mountain miles on my 02 w/o any motor issues.
Thank you skibreeze
And there our miny more out there that can say the same thing.
It's funny what a polarized issue oil is in sledders.
A few years ago I was running interceptor in one of my 1000's, Kelsey walked into the shop while I was filling up... holy crap you should have seen his face... utter disgust. In his opinion it's the worst oil to put in a sled, esp at break-in.
Point of this, is that even amongst the most knowledgeable among us, you'll find two people with exact opposite opinions. No matter what I think & what testing I've seen someone else will believe the opposite.
The funny thing is, what oil we use is similar to a republican watching fox, and a dem watching pbs... we're going to see what we want to see & we'll look where we want to in order to reinforce our beliefs (nearly everyone I know runs legend, I'm guessing most of clutch mans customers run the oil that he recommends... see what I mean?) Oh yeah, I lost a mag rod bearing in my main sled, so I need to switch oil now...
A few years ago I was running interceptor in one of my 1000's, Kelsey walked into the shop while I was filling up... holy crap you should have seen his face... utter disgust. In his opinion it's the worst oil to put in a sled, esp at break-in.
Point of this, is that even amongst the most knowledgeable among us, you'll find two people with exact opposite opinions. No matter what I think & what testing I've seen someone else will believe the opposite.
The funny thing is, what oil we use is similar to a republican watching fox, and a dem watching pbs... we're going to see what we want to see & we'll look where we want to in order to reinforce our beliefs (nearly everyone I know runs legend, I'm guessing most of clutch mans customers run the oil that he recommends... see what I mean?) Oh yeah, I lost a mag rod bearing in my main sled, so I need to switch oil now...
Synthetics have their place. They work great in four stroke engines, transmissions, differentials or any place else where the lube stays for a period of time.
Two strokes burn the oil with the gas. It is sucked though the engine in a fraction of a second. The fact that all synthetic oil molecules are of uniform size is lost in a two stroke. The fact that it can flow better at low temps is lost on a two stroke. The fact that it withstand higher temps for longer periods without coking is lost on a two stroke. The two stroke snowmobile engine is not able to take advantage of the many benefits of synthetic oil because the benefits are generally long term. The oil passes through so quickly that a quality dino is more than sufficient.
Could it help a poorly built engine last a little longer? Maybe...For me it doesn't matter because I don't ride a sled with a flawed bottom end anymore, I ride a Cat.
It is not a claim it is a fact. go to what is the proper oil ratio in the Arctic cat m series post 17 here is part of that post.
PS just FYI i have 6 mod 800 Polaris rmks out there running 50/1 and none have any problems at all rebuilt a 2000 one at 5130 miles did not have to replace any bearings on the crank just new pistons seals and gaskets. This motor has twin pipes, high comp heads, reeds, ported and bored carbs, runs 8300 rpm and has always ran 50/1 Amsoil. that sled came back to me later with over 7200 miles with a bad clutch, one new clutch and back on the snow and still had 152 lb comp in the cyls and runs very strong.
just tell me how many motors have you rebuilt?
Just because someone has a mod sled doesn't mean they know how to ride it.
Just because you rebuild snowmobile engines does not mean you are a petroleum engineer.
Funny, since you rebuild so many engines and reccomend synthetics, you seem to think you are right, and Indydan doing the same reccomending the opposite is wrong. Interesting huh?
In the end, there is still no scientific data or tests that confirm the notion that synthetic oils in your snowmobile will make the engine last longer or run better.
Again, if it makes you feel better, and you have the cash to waste, go for it.
For me, it doesn't make me feel better to spend money on something with no tangible benefits.
I wouldn't go as far as Indydan though and suggest people run the cheapest out there. What hasn't been said here is that the TWC-3 or whatever the designation is, isn't necessarily good snowmobile oil. It is good outboard oil but outboards do not see the same stresses or rpms a sled motor does. Definately buy an oil approved specifically for snowmobiles. I like the idea of using the sled manufacturers brand of dino. That way you get excellent protection, designed for your sled, at a lower cost than the synthetics. It isn't that the synthetics do not work, they obviously do. But what you need to ask yourself is, is it twice as good as the dino? Not in my estimation.
S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
walmart has silver tech or some chit.its $10 a gallon and has a picture of a sled on it.
freind of mine didn;t know they sold new oil till he was 19 years old...his Dad always got used oil for his equipment and just filtered it through cheesecloth because his Dad was a cheap bohunk...but he kept alot of equipment running year after year...,lol..anyway im no expert on oil...but i do all my own repairs and rebuilds on my own stuff...and my current sled is the most modified and one i just cannot make fail so far...and i have been using redline and so im sticking with it...and kudos clutchman for keeping derogatory comments from your posts in making your informative view points..
C
clutch man
Well-known member
First of all, all i do is boondock and i am a very good rider got my first sled in 1970 and never stooped or slowed down. I ride very hard and fast.
I don't run petroleum
Just tell me how many motors have you rebuilt? You did not anwser this hmmm. Do just take only what you hear on here do you really know anything at all for your self.
Here is a little math for you interceptor $36.00 a gal. at 50/1 you go threw 50 gal of gas to one gal oil that will cost you $0.72 per gal of gas for your oil.
The cat oil at 29/1 the way yours is set up $27.00 gal. you go threw 29 gals gas to one gal oil, that will cost you $0.97 per gal gas in oil.
To get down to $0.72 per gal in oil at 29/1 you have to buy oil at $21.00 a gal.
If that floats you boat go for it.
Here you! our already disputing Indy Dan
Last edited:
I have not rebuilt any snowmobile engines. I fail to see how that matters.
I buy Cat green dino oil for $50 per 2.5 gal jug. That puts me at under $21/ gal and my sled runs 32:1. I am impressed that you figured you knew how my seld was set up though.
Is that english? What does that mean?
I don't follow Indy Dan, nor do I follow you. I find it humorous that you need to continue to try and portrait me as some kind of blind follower when clearly I have a different solution that both of you. Read carefully...Dans opinions are one example I use as guidance, yours are another. I don't think either of you are right.
Do you really think you are going to convince me? So far you have provided nothing as evidence that synthetics are better in any way, yet you want to try and continue to argue the point, albeit with broken english. Why?
C
clutch man
Well-known member
This here makes your creditably almost 0. The people that turn the wrenches know a lot more than you.
Sorry most cat sled unless they have been set up do pump 29/1. I am amassed that you know what your sled pumps, since you our not a mechanic
Our you an English major? you dam sure know nothing about snowmobiles.
Who gives a chit any way this about oil and not English or spelling. oh you did not use a capitol e on English.
I do find you as blind follower and you have showing no base or experience
I am not trying convince you of any thing, I am putting some of my experience out there so people can make up there own mind.
Last edited:
wow
This is better than politics.Run what you wish and I will do the same.For the record I do ride cat and have over 5000 miles on original motor with redline oil,at 30 bucks a gallon I think I will stick with it, also never had to clean the valves yet.Good luck..and yes it is better protection than the dino oil you said it......
This is better than politics.Run what you wish and I will do the same.For the record I do ride cat and have over 5000 miles on original motor with redline oil,at 30 bucks a gallon I think I will stick with it, also never had to clean the valves yet.Good luck..and yes it is better protection than the dino oil you said it......
C
clutch man
Well-known member
Okay here goes..............
Obviously this is a highly debated topic that can stir emotion quickly due to many opinions out there. Some may be justified, some are unfounded.
I am now typing (and a rather large copy/paste) because I feel facts are needed! The below are article is researched and written by a petroleum eng. / chemist. Please read it twice!! As there is much information to absorb.
I am not a chemist so I cannot speak in the technical sense whereas, I think this topic is desperately in need and, I'll make no-bones about it, I want to sell each and everyone of you Legend Oil Performance products!
I contacted Mark Zaic, President of Legend Performance (Chemist) and he suggested I forward an article he wrote concerning "Modern Two-Cycle Lubricants". There is a short explanation first, then the long version. Please grab an ice tea or a beer and read this in it's entirety.
Thanks for your time.
Here goes:
Regarding the oil question, please find below a "long answer" to your question taken from my article "Understanding Modern 2-Cycle Lubricants" found on our website and the link for you to read in it's entirety if you have not already done so. Feel free to forward that link to others and help get the word out. It is important to read that document several times as it will answer most of the questions you will be asked.
In a more brief technical "short" answer, the reason synthetic oils do not burn is due to their uniform molecular structure which provides a higher bearing load surface. These molecules were designed to be "tenacious" in film strength providing good load-carrying capabilities but suffer a fatal flaw in a two-cycle application: their inability to combust and thereby not "glaze" the piston ring and cylinder surfaces, post combustion. Anytime residual unburned synthetic molecules are allowed to accumulate on the cylinder sealing surfaces "blow-by" will eventually prevail. Synthetics within an engine is analogous to a worn out windshield wiper blade in a rain storm. They travel over the surfaces many times but do very little work! Mineral based lubricants which benefit from random size molecules that readily combust due to their fossil origins also contribute to ring seal by their ability to provide a "dynamic threshold" at the ring to cylinder surface thereby preventing blow-by and not leaving any residue to contaminate the sealing surfaces. This would be analogous to a new windshield wiper blade in a rainstorm that readily removes the water much like a piton ring working efficiently to seal the gases within the combustion chamber.
The unique additives within our Legend ZX-2R/SR oils are what gives us a technical edge over the synthetics without the compromise and added expense. These oils will not only out-protect the most expensive synthetics but leave virtually no build-up on power valves reducing maintenance intervals.
(Recommend printing this article for future reference)
http://legendperformance.com/article5.asp
Best Regards,
Mark Zaic
President
Today, many snowmobile engines are designed with power valves to enhance the low and midrange performance. This requires an oil to be exceptionally clean burning to prevent the "gumming‑up" and eventual sticking of the power valves in the open or closed position. This is one reason the OEM's recommend expensive synthetic oils to help reduce valve sticking and contamination. The majority of synthetics tend to burn cleaner because they are not a fossil derived petroleum by‑product, rather a man‑made chemically designed molecule.
Modern synthetics have advantages over most petroleum based 2T oils in the areas of high rpm protection, lower sub‑zero pour point, cleaner burning with less smoke, lower carbon deposits on pistons, rings and power valves. The most notable disadvantages of synthetics are high price, poor off‑season rust protection, irritating smell along with eye and respiratory discomfort due to the solvents used in manufacturing and loss of ring seal due to "glazing" of the cylinder walls with extended use. After several years of intensive research, we have documented that the use of synthetic 2T oils will in fact cause the cylinder walls to "glaze over" and cause "blow‑by" at the piston rings eventually resulting in a power loss. This will be evident when you remove a cylinder and find discoloration below the ring lands most notably on the piston sides. Our research has determined this begins around 1500‑1800 miles and worsens with continued use of synthetics. Why all the hype then about synthetics? And why do the manufactures urge you to use them?
The synthetic molecule by virtue of design is "chemically" superior to the petroleum molecule. The real benefit of a man‑made synthetic molecule occurs at extreme high RPMs. When the reciprocating loads and heat saturation limits reach engine component failure levels (10‑12,000+ rpm), synthetics provide the needed protection. This level of operation is rarely ever seen in snowmobiling today except in drag racing or full‑mod engines tuned for maximum performance. The disadvantages of synthetics, namely the unacceptable loss of ring seal with continued use, poor off‑season rust protection for the crankshaft bearings from ever present internal moisture and unpleasant exhaust fumes far outweigh the advantages. Most people expect when paying 30‑50% more for an oil to get something for their investment, not a loss of performance or an expensive repair bill when they lose a crank bearing at the beginning of the season caused by internal rust.
Manufactures insist on using synthetics because they lack the technology to blend a petroleum 2T oil that will burn clean and not cause pre‑mature power valve sticking. Cleaning power valves is a drag and the OEM's realize that most people would rather ride than spend time doing maintenance caused by a poor grade of oil. Blending oil is an art, a skillful balance of chemistry and component selection along with additives that perform in a predetermined manner. This art is referred to as "chemical engineering" and unfortunately do you rarely find a professional engine builder working closely and in conjunction with a qualified lubricants chemist.
Petroleum or mineral based 2T oils have more advantages than disadvantages: They provide superior off‑season rust protection because mineral oils are natural lubricants, not man‑made, they are affordable and provide good all‑around performance without destroying piston ring seal by glazing the cylinder walls. Their disadvantages are that they are not as clean burning as synthetics, and some will not provide the film strength in "extreme" high rpm load or heat conditions.
What would be the "preferred" two‑cycle lubricant is combining the best features of both mineral based oil and a synthetic with the undesirable traits chemically altered or removed to obtain the best of both worlds. This "hybrid" 2T formula would be an ultra‑pure, highly refined, superior quality base oil combined with an additive package that would offer all the benefits in film strength and cleanliness of a synthetic yet still be classified as mineral oil. The good news is this technology exists, yet very few people understand the importance and the balance of chemistry to make it a reality.
To understand this concept, let's look at what 2T oils are made from.
Figure 3 represents the basic formula structure for current petroleum and synthetic oils. The chart on the left illustrates typical mineral base oils and on the right synthetics.
Traditional Oil Quality OEM Recommended Quality
ISO‑EGB/JASO FB/API TC or JASO FA/API TA/API TB API TC / ISO‑EGC / JASO FC ISO‑EGD
DI Additive Balanced DI System
Brightstock PIB
Heavy Neutral Basestock Heavy Neutral Basestock
Minimal Solvent Level
Higher Solvent Level
Notice the use of PIB (poly‑iso‑butane) instead of bright stock and the higher solvent content in the synthetic 2T oils. PIB does contribute to lubricity with "anti‑scuffing" properties. The PIB is part of the man‑made synthetic molecular structure that inhibits ring seal on engine "break‑in" and leads to glazing of the cylinder walls. The reason for this lies in the fact that some of the synthetic molecules "high molecular weight" and chemical compounds (sulfur) cannot combust completely and thereby leave a residue on the cylinder wall. This residue continues to build over time and ' eventually prevents the rings from making contact with the cylinder walls leading to blow‑by. This condition deteriorates performance and can be corrected only by honing the cylinder walls and installing fresh piston rings or switching to a high quality mineral based lubricant.
The higher solvent content in synthetics not only drive up the cost, but contribute to the typical "foul odor" and incomplete combustion based on improper solvent selection. The DI (detergency) portion of the formula controls the oils ability to minimize residue and build‑up on internal components. While the charts show what would be an ideal progression towards improved lubricant performance, the basic ingredients used in blending of 2T oils and the "closeminded" approach by most chemist has prevented technological advances in oil formulation. As engine technology improves so should the lubricants, this has not been the case with two‑cycle synthetics.
What must take place is a change of attitude from: 'It's worked in the past, it should work now’ chemistry to a mentality of: 'If it worked in the past there must be plenty of room for improvement’. Then we can move forward and conduct an in‑depth research of modern combustion engines, the effect of lubricants in a "post‑combustion" atmosphere and "chemically engineer" the lubricant to perform without the compromise typical in today's 2T oils.
The successful art of blending a "hybrid" ultra‑performance lubricant is a balancing act of chemistry:
"Quality In = Quality Out." Premium quality ingredients, advanced additive technology and an experienced team of professionals working together will produce a better class of lubricant for extreme conditions.
Legend Performance & Technologies, Inc. has led this change and has accomplished our mission in blending a mineral based two‑cycle oil with synthetic‑plus performance. While most oil companies and OEM manufactures blend their oils to achieve a certain level of engine reliability for warranty purposes and a "price point" for attractive sales, we at Legend Performance do quite the opposite. Listed below is a comparison of blending practices compared to the innovative approach used by Legend Performance.
Blending Practices
Traditional Technology vs. Innovative Technology
Aftermarket / OEM 2T Oils
Legend ZX‑2 / ZX‑2R
Basestocks
Average quality base oils‑ adds cost / higher profit. Most are high ash content‑ contributes to carbon, deposits and higher exhaust emissions Ultra‑high quality "pure ashless" base oils‑maximum purity, internal cleanliness, lubricity and protection adds cost, reduces exhaust emissions
Solvents
High solvent content‑more profit with higher exhaust emissions, post‑combustion smoke and odor Select quality solvent content for cold weather fluidity and desired flash point. Reduces cost / lower exhaust emissions smokeless, odorless
Additive Package (DI, Brightstock, PIB,etc.)
Higher additive "treat‑rate" to obtain TC‑W3 rating due to lower the quality base oils, adds cost / raises exhaust emissions Superior proprietary additive technology, controls cost due to lower "treat‑rates" by use of the highest quality ultra‑refined base oils. Lowers cost / exhaust emissions
Add PIB's to synthetics replacing Brightstock, adds significant cost with slightly enhanced cleanliness. Promotes high rpm protection Balance Brightstock with proprietary blend of "chemically engineered" molecules to obtain synthetic quality protection‑lowers cost, provides high rpm protection
After comparing traditional vs. innovative blending practices and philosophies, then comparing the differences, it becomes obvious that Legend Performance, Inc. has produced a superior formulation that is petroleum‑based. We have achieved our goal by combining the best of both chemistries through a "common sense" approach. By using the most advanced additive technologies available in the world, we have created 2T lubricants which out‑perform the best synthetics at a mineral oil price! By investing in the best quality base oils then refining to an "ultra pure" state combined with a chemically advanced additive package, we develop what is called a hybrid "super" lubricant. While eliminating the use of low energy solvents at "high treat" rates and expensive synthetic additives, we produce a superior lubricant at a lower cost to the consumer.
The ZX‑2R / ZX‑2SR formulas are engineered to completely combust with minimal if any deposits after combustion. Synthetics and conventional mineral oils produce by‑products of combustion due to their chemistry content. Figure 4 shows the visible difference between a mineral, synthetic and the ZX‑2 / R base stocks refined purity.
CLICK IMAGE FOR LARGER VIEW
The ZX‑2R-series base oils are "super‑refined" to a "turbine oil" pureness. With the higher molecular weight, low energy, poorly combustible constituents (tar, asphalt, waste minerals, etc) refined out, we are left with a more "pure" natural lubricant. It is this combination of base stock quality and advanced additive technology that provides the oil its lubricity or the level in which it is capable of protecting your engine.
The "cleaner" a 2T oil can burn, the less octane it requires from the fuel to combust, thereby leaving more octane available for performance.
Figure 5 shows the "post combustion" results on pistons along with mileage documentation.
CLICK IMAGE FOR LARGER VIEW
Synthetic "blends", which as the name implies are a blend of mineral oil base stocks with synthetic "fortifiers" added to improve protection and cleanliness at a lower price than full synthetics. Again, the chemistry is complicated in achieving the ideal balance between petroleum and synthetic. Our testing has shown most synthetic blends fall short of any worthwhile improvement for the higher price they demand.
In the future, with more stringent protocol for lower global emissions from our venerable two-stroke powerplants, governing entities will dictate the acceptable emission levels. Manufactures are now responding with Direct Injection and four‑strokes engines to help lower exhaust pollution. At Legend Performance, we have taken steps to do our part in developing "state of the art" hybrid lubricants that will contribute to lower exhaust emissions and boost performance while providing maximum engine protection.
Obviously this is a highly debated topic that can stir emotion quickly due to many opinions out there. Some may be justified, some are unfounded.
I am now typing (and a rather large copy/paste) because I feel facts are needed! The below are article is researched and written by a petroleum eng. / chemist. Please read it twice!! As there is much information to absorb.
I am not a chemist so I cannot speak in the technical sense whereas, I think this topic is desperately in need and, I'll make no-bones about it, I want to sell each and everyone of you Legend Oil Performance products!
I contacted Mark Zaic, President of Legend Performance (Chemist) and he suggested I forward an article he wrote concerning "Modern Two-Cycle Lubricants". There is a short explanation first, then the long version. Please grab an ice tea or a beer and read this in it's entirety.
Thanks for your time.
Here goes:
Regarding the oil question, please find below a "long answer" to your question taken from my article "Understanding Modern 2-Cycle Lubricants" found on our website and the link for you to read in it's entirety if you have not already done so. Feel free to forward that link to others and help get the word out. It is important to read that document several times as it will answer most of the questions you will be asked.
In a more brief technical "short" answer, the reason synthetic oils do not burn is due to their uniform molecular structure which provides a higher bearing load surface. These molecules were designed to be "tenacious" in film strength providing good load-carrying capabilities but suffer a fatal flaw in a two-cycle application: their inability to combust and thereby not "glaze" the piston ring and cylinder surfaces, post combustion. Anytime residual unburned synthetic molecules are allowed to accumulate on the cylinder sealing surfaces "blow-by" will eventually prevail. Synthetics within an engine is analogous to a worn out windshield wiper blade in a rain storm. They travel over the surfaces many times but do very little work! Mineral based lubricants which benefit from random size molecules that readily combust due to their fossil origins also contribute to ring seal by their ability to provide a "dynamic threshold" at the ring to cylinder surface thereby preventing blow-by and not leaving any residue to contaminate the sealing surfaces. This would be analogous to a new windshield wiper blade in a rainstorm that readily removes the water much like a piton ring working efficiently to seal the gases within the combustion chamber.
The unique additives within our Legend ZX-2R/SR oils are what gives us a technical edge over the synthetics without the compromise and added expense. These oils will not only out-protect the most expensive synthetics but leave virtually no build-up on power valves reducing maintenance intervals.
(Recommend printing this article for future reference)
http://legendperformance.com/article5.asp
Best Regards,
Mark Zaic
President
Today, many snowmobile engines are designed with power valves to enhance the low and midrange performance. This requires an oil to be exceptionally clean burning to prevent the "gumming‑up" and eventual sticking of the power valves in the open or closed position. This is one reason the OEM's recommend expensive synthetic oils to help reduce valve sticking and contamination. The majority of synthetics tend to burn cleaner because they are not a fossil derived petroleum by‑product, rather a man‑made chemically designed molecule.
Modern synthetics have advantages over most petroleum based 2T oils in the areas of high rpm protection, lower sub‑zero pour point, cleaner burning with less smoke, lower carbon deposits on pistons, rings and power valves. The most notable disadvantages of synthetics are high price, poor off‑season rust protection, irritating smell along with eye and respiratory discomfort due to the solvents used in manufacturing and loss of ring seal due to "glazing" of the cylinder walls with extended use. After several years of intensive research, we have documented that the use of synthetic 2T oils will in fact cause the cylinder walls to "glaze over" and cause "blow‑by" at the piston rings eventually resulting in a power loss. This will be evident when you remove a cylinder and find discoloration below the ring lands most notably on the piston sides. Our research has determined this begins around 1500‑1800 miles and worsens with continued use of synthetics. Why all the hype then about synthetics? And why do the manufactures urge you to use them?
The synthetic molecule by virtue of design is "chemically" superior to the petroleum molecule. The real benefit of a man‑made synthetic molecule occurs at extreme high RPMs. When the reciprocating loads and heat saturation limits reach engine component failure levels (10‑12,000+ rpm), synthetics provide the needed protection. This level of operation is rarely ever seen in snowmobiling today except in drag racing or full‑mod engines tuned for maximum performance. The disadvantages of synthetics, namely the unacceptable loss of ring seal with continued use, poor off‑season rust protection for the crankshaft bearings from ever present internal moisture and unpleasant exhaust fumes far outweigh the advantages. Most people expect when paying 30‑50% more for an oil to get something for their investment, not a loss of performance or an expensive repair bill when they lose a crank bearing at the beginning of the season caused by internal rust.
Manufactures insist on using synthetics because they lack the technology to blend a petroleum 2T oil that will burn clean and not cause pre‑mature power valve sticking. Cleaning power valves is a drag and the OEM's realize that most people would rather ride than spend time doing maintenance caused by a poor grade of oil. Blending oil is an art, a skillful balance of chemistry and component selection along with additives that perform in a predetermined manner. This art is referred to as "chemical engineering" and unfortunately do you rarely find a professional engine builder working closely and in conjunction with a qualified lubricants chemist.
Petroleum or mineral based 2T oils have more advantages than disadvantages: They provide superior off‑season rust protection because mineral oils are natural lubricants, not man‑made, they are affordable and provide good all‑around performance without destroying piston ring seal by glazing the cylinder walls. Their disadvantages are that they are not as clean burning as synthetics, and some will not provide the film strength in "extreme" high rpm load or heat conditions.
What would be the "preferred" two‑cycle lubricant is combining the best features of both mineral based oil and a synthetic with the undesirable traits chemically altered or removed to obtain the best of both worlds. This "hybrid" 2T formula would be an ultra‑pure, highly refined, superior quality base oil combined with an additive package that would offer all the benefits in film strength and cleanliness of a synthetic yet still be classified as mineral oil. The good news is this technology exists, yet very few people understand the importance and the balance of chemistry to make it a reality.
To understand this concept, let's look at what 2T oils are made from.
Figure 3 represents the basic formula structure for current petroleum and synthetic oils. The chart on the left illustrates typical mineral base oils and on the right synthetics.
Traditional Oil Quality OEM Recommended Quality
ISO‑EGB/JASO FB/API TC or JASO FA/API TA/API TB API TC / ISO‑EGC / JASO FC ISO‑EGD
DI Additive Balanced DI System
Brightstock PIB
Heavy Neutral Basestock Heavy Neutral Basestock
Minimal Solvent Level
Higher Solvent Level
Notice the use of PIB (poly‑iso‑butane) instead of bright stock and the higher solvent content in the synthetic 2T oils. PIB does contribute to lubricity with "anti‑scuffing" properties. The PIB is part of the man‑made synthetic molecular structure that inhibits ring seal on engine "break‑in" and leads to glazing of the cylinder walls. The reason for this lies in the fact that some of the synthetic molecules "high molecular weight" and chemical compounds (sulfur) cannot combust completely and thereby leave a residue on the cylinder wall. This residue continues to build over time and ' eventually prevents the rings from making contact with the cylinder walls leading to blow‑by. This condition deteriorates performance and can be corrected only by honing the cylinder walls and installing fresh piston rings or switching to a high quality mineral based lubricant.
The higher solvent content in synthetics not only drive up the cost, but contribute to the typical "foul odor" and incomplete combustion based on improper solvent selection. The DI (detergency) portion of the formula controls the oils ability to minimize residue and build‑up on internal components. While the charts show what would be an ideal progression towards improved lubricant performance, the basic ingredients used in blending of 2T oils and the "closeminded" approach by most chemist has prevented technological advances in oil formulation. As engine technology improves so should the lubricants, this has not been the case with two‑cycle synthetics.
What must take place is a change of attitude from: 'It's worked in the past, it should work now’ chemistry to a mentality of: 'If it worked in the past there must be plenty of room for improvement’. Then we can move forward and conduct an in‑depth research of modern combustion engines, the effect of lubricants in a "post‑combustion" atmosphere and "chemically engineer" the lubricant to perform without the compromise typical in today's 2T oils.
The successful art of blending a "hybrid" ultra‑performance lubricant is a balancing act of chemistry:
"Quality In = Quality Out." Premium quality ingredients, advanced additive technology and an experienced team of professionals working together will produce a better class of lubricant for extreme conditions.
Legend Performance & Technologies, Inc. has led this change and has accomplished our mission in blending a mineral based two‑cycle oil with synthetic‑plus performance. While most oil companies and OEM manufactures blend their oils to achieve a certain level of engine reliability for warranty purposes and a "price point" for attractive sales, we at Legend Performance do quite the opposite. Listed below is a comparison of blending practices compared to the innovative approach used by Legend Performance.
Blending Practices
Traditional Technology vs. Innovative Technology
Aftermarket / OEM 2T Oils
Legend ZX‑2 / ZX‑2R
Basestocks
Average quality base oils‑ adds cost / higher profit. Most are high ash content‑ contributes to carbon, deposits and higher exhaust emissions Ultra‑high quality "pure ashless" base oils‑maximum purity, internal cleanliness, lubricity and protection adds cost, reduces exhaust emissions
Solvents
High solvent content‑more profit with higher exhaust emissions, post‑combustion smoke and odor Select quality solvent content for cold weather fluidity and desired flash point. Reduces cost / lower exhaust emissions smokeless, odorless
Additive Package (DI, Brightstock, PIB,etc.)
Higher additive "treat‑rate" to obtain TC‑W3 rating due to lower the quality base oils, adds cost / raises exhaust emissions Superior proprietary additive technology, controls cost due to lower "treat‑rates" by use of the highest quality ultra‑refined base oils. Lowers cost / exhaust emissions
Add PIB's to synthetics replacing Brightstock, adds significant cost with slightly enhanced cleanliness. Promotes high rpm protection Balance Brightstock with proprietary blend of "chemically engineered" molecules to obtain synthetic quality protection‑lowers cost, provides high rpm protection
After comparing traditional vs. innovative blending practices and philosophies, then comparing the differences, it becomes obvious that Legend Performance, Inc. has produced a superior formulation that is petroleum‑based. We have achieved our goal by combining the best of both chemistries through a "common sense" approach. By using the most advanced additive technologies available in the world, we have created 2T lubricants which out‑perform the best synthetics at a mineral oil price! By investing in the best quality base oils then refining to an "ultra pure" state combined with a chemically advanced additive package, we develop what is called a hybrid "super" lubricant. While eliminating the use of low energy solvents at "high treat" rates and expensive synthetic additives, we produce a superior lubricant at a lower cost to the consumer.
The ZX‑2R / ZX‑2SR formulas are engineered to completely combust with minimal if any deposits after combustion. Synthetics and conventional mineral oils produce by‑products of combustion due to their chemistry content. Figure 4 shows the visible difference between a mineral, synthetic and the ZX‑2 / R base stocks refined purity.
CLICK IMAGE FOR LARGER VIEW
The ZX‑2R-series base oils are "super‑refined" to a "turbine oil" pureness. With the higher molecular weight, low energy, poorly combustible constituents (tar, asphalt, waste minerals, etc) refined out, we are left with a more "pure" natural lubricant. It is this combination of base stock quality and advanced additive technology that provides the oil its lubricity or the level in which it is capable of protecting your engine.
The "cleaner" a 2T oil can burn, the less octane it requires from the fuel to combust, thereby leaving more octane available for performance.
Figure 5 shows the "post combustion" results on pistons along with mileage documentation.
CLICK IMAGE FOR LARGER VIEW
Synthetic "blends", which as the name implies are a blend of mineral oil base stocks with synthetic "fortifiers" added to improve protection and cleanliness at a lower price than full synthetics. Again, the chemistry is complicated in achieving the ideal balance between petroleum and synthetic. Our testing has shown most synthetic blends fall short of any worthwhile improvement for the higher price they demand.
In the future, with more stringent protocol for lower global emissions from our venerable two-stroke powerplants, governing entities will dictate the acceptable emission levels. Manufactures are now responding with Direct Injection and four‑strokes engines to help lower exhaust pollution. At Legend Performance, we have taken steps to do our part in developing "state of the art" hybrid lubricants that will contribute to lower exhaust emissions and boost performance while providing maximum engine protection.
C
clutch man
Well-known member
Good wright up if your selling legend oil
One thing it fails to say WHAT BRAND OF SYNTHETIC WAS TESTED, they our not all the same.
Here is something from Amsoil check it out.
AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR™ Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil is formulated with a proprietary blend of the finest synthetic base oils and additives available today. This unique AMSOIL Chemistry represents a breakthrough development in the field of two-cycle engine lubrication. The backbone of AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR 2-Cycle Oil is a specially developed molecularly saturated synthetic base oil. This, combined with a robust additive package, ensures exceptional lubricity, cleanliness and optimum clean-burning characteristics. Extensive research and testing, including a full snowmobiling season in severe Rock Mountain applications, has proven that wear on cylinders, pistons and bearings is significantly reduced. And with up to 30 percent more detergency and dispersancy additives than typical two-cycle oils, AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR virtually eliminates hard carbon deposits that cause exhaust power valve sticking, ring sticking and pre-detonation promoting "hot spots" in the combustion chamber.
•Helps prevents hard carbon deposits that cause exhaust power valve sticking and ring sticking.
•Superior lubricity controls cylinder, piston and bearing wear.
•Reduces smoke and odor associated with two-cycle engines.
•Helps prevent plug fouling.
•Provides exceptional SAE #4 cold temperature fluidity (-58°F pour point).
•Versatile and excellent for all types of recreational equipment.
•Protects against rust.
•Helps prevent pre-detonation from combustion chamber "hot spots."
note it protects against rust
One thing it fails to say WHAT BRAND OF SYNTHETIC WAS TESTED, they our not all the same.
Here is something from Amsoil check it out.
AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR™ Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil is formulated with a proprietary blend of the finest synthetic base oils and additives available today. This unique AMSOIL Chemistry represents a breakthrough development in the field of two-cycle engine lubrication. The backbone of AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR 2-Cycle Oil is a specially developed molecularly saturated synthetic base oil. This, combined with a robust additive package, ensures exceptional lubricity, cleanliness and optimum clean-burning characteristics. Extensive research and testing, including a full snowmobiling season in severe Rock Mountain applications, has proven that wear on cylinders, pistons and bearings is significantly reduced. And with up to 30 percent more detergency and dispersancy additives than typical two-cycle oils, AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR virtually eliminates hard carbon deposits that cause exhaust power valve sticking, ring sticking and pre-detonation promoting "hot spots" in the combustion chamber.
•Helps prevents hard carbon deposits that cause exhaust power valve sticking and ring sticking.
•Superior lubricity controls cylinder, piston and bearing wear.
•Reduces smoke and odor associated with two-cycle engines.
•Helps prevent plug fouling.
•Provides exceptional SAE #4 cold temperature fluidity (-58°F pour point).
•Versatile and excellent for all types of recreational equipment.
•Protects against rust.
•Helps prevent pre-detonation from combustion chamber "hot spots."
note it protects against rust
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