South Bighorns

[mtntopper]

I have seen those Tuckers in the Wyoming Range- they are more than capable in the steep and deep. The South Bighorns is not even close

Can you please qualify your experience operating, owning or just analyzing from a desk location? I do not want to start a pizzing match but you need to back up your info with real life operating experience, maintenance issues and ownership.

I currently own 2 steel track Tuckers which are not the Terra rubber type track cats that are used by the state. I have operated a Pisten Bully for several years grooming snowmobile trails in mountainous conditions and was never stuck where I had to dig the cat out with a shovel. I listened to the operators hired by the state of WY whine/complain about being stuck and digging by hand for 12 hours at a time in an 8 hour shift. I thought they were just BS'ing me until I took a ride along and got the privilege of operating the hand shovel. The Tucker Terra and the Tucker steel cleat rubber tracks operate totally different in deep and steep. As I also said locking differentials would help a bunch on the Terra if they are spec'd on the cat. I have owned and/or operated and maintained the following brands of snow cats. My snow cat history and knowledge is quite extensive with different brands:

Pisten Bully
Thiokol
LMC
Bombardier -
Aktiv TracMaster
VMC Right Track
Prinoth
Camoplast
Tucker - I currently own 2 Tuckers and they are not rubber track Terras

 

[mtntopper]

I have seen those Tuckers in the Wyoming Range- they are more than capable in the steep and deep. The South Bighorns is not even close

Another question I have is; why has the total miles end to end of the trail system groomed in the south Big Horns dropped since the state took over versus when the contract operator was doing the job? Is the state shrinking/decreasing the size of the groomed trail system more to meet the requirements of the equipment and blaming it on a budget/money shortage while raising our user fees and a lack of snow when in reality it maybe more of an equipment failure problem. Why have so many problems in the Snowies and Big Horns happened since the state took over the grooming operations from the contractors? Some of us old timers do remember actually seeing groomed trails in the Sheep Mountain and Pole Creek areas prior to the state taking over.....

 

[jbmilek]

to mtntopper: to correct you on something; the steering configuration on a tucker is round steering, not crab.

 

[MotoPsycho]

This has been posted in another thread, but here it is again:

We have also started a group here on SW for anyone interested in the Southern Bighorns.

We will try to keep it updated with the latest news, conditions, Sno Goers meeting dates and times, etc.

The group can be found HERE (Clicky)

If you would like to become a member of this group, please send me a PM.

There is a Sno Goers Meeting Jan. 22 - Use the group link above for details...

 

[mtntopper]

to mtntopper: to correct you on something; the steering configuration on a tucker is round steering, not crab.

Direct From Tucker Web Site: http://www.sno-cat.com/Page.asp?NavID=3

The steering arrangement described previously is particularly advantageous while maneuvering on sidehills. The front and rear tracks present a fan pattern on the terrain as the vehicle turns or crabs on a sidehill. This is a major factor in preventing side slip on ice or hard faced slopes. As a further aid to sidehill ability, each individual track grouser is provided with ice cleats which reduce side slip and provide forward and reverse traction. The fact that all tracks are powered at all times is also a major advantage.

Please dispute with Tucker Corp and not me as they call it crab steer. I am not familiar with the term "round steer".

 

[mbsieg]

Please dispute with Tucker Corp and not me as they call it crab steer. I am not familiar with the term "round steer".

I think he was looking at his belly.......................... And got confused by his crotch..................

 

[jbmilek]

Direct From Tucker Web Site: http://www.sno-cat.com/Page.asp?NavID=3

The steering arrangement described previously is particularly advantageous while maneuvering on sidehills. The front and rear tracks present a fan pattern on the terrain as the vehicle turns or crabs on a sidehill. This is a major factor in preventing side slip on ice or hard faced slopes. As a further aid to sidehill ability, each individual track grouser is provided with ice cleats which reduce side slip and provide forward and reverse traction. The fact that all tracks are powered at all times is also a major advantage.

Please dispute with Tucker Corp and not me as they call it crab steer. I am not familiar with the term "round steer".

good job validating your terms. on a side note, you could have pointed out in the picture of the stuck tucker, that if the operator had stayed on the packed area called the trail, he would not have gotten stuck. every cat has its advantages and disavantages but when operator error is envolved it doesn't matter much which cat you have.

 

[MotoPsycho]

... you could have pointed out in the picture of the stuck tucker, that if the operator had stayed on the packed area called the trail, he would not have gotten stuck.

I believe this statement brings the conversation full circle.... to me, a snow cat should go where you point it.

The old Thiokol's that were used when I was a kid were capable of much more. They broke down, went slow, and were maintenance intensive, but they would go wherever you pointed them. This was due mostly to the track design. Wide and long.

Losing a trail in poor visibility, crummy trail conditions, or due to falling asleep during arduous grooming hours will happen, no matter how great the operator is. (Keep in mind our operators DO NOT command a $30 / hr wage, as they are "contract" Government employees )

Being a mountain rider, I ride a sled with a 162" track, not a 121.
Stands to reason if you want a groomer for the mountains, it should have a couple long, wide tracks - rather than 4 short narrow tracks...

'cause ya can't always stay on the thingy called a trail... you know, where ya don't get stuck


Yuuuuuucccckkkk!

 

[jbmilek]

well if we are comparing cats to sleds: we have trail sleds and mountains sleds, then we have trail groomers not boondocker groomers or mountain groomers; we do have alpine groomers but we don't have snowmobile trails on alpine slopes. i have 5 years of grooming experience all with tuckers and when i was starting out i got stuck, but when i learned how to operate the cat with in its ability's i stopped getting stuck. if you can't see you shouldn't be out there; if your feeling sleepy, take a nap; and if you stay on top of your work you shouldn't have crapy trail conditions. you acknowledge the cost of operation of a thiokol and would rather risk multiple break downs (a time when no grooming is taking place) and high costs than have a more reliable machine. with the cost of everything these days i would go with reliability.

 

[mtntopper]

good job validating your terms. on a side note, you could have pointed out in the picture of the stuck tucker, that if the operator had stayed on the packed area called the trail, he would not have gotten stuck. every cat has its advantages and disadvantages but when operator error is involved it doesn't matter much which cat you have.

This was the first trip of the season on that section of trail after a lot of snow in January. The cat was only track packing, blading, basically pioneering the trail and did not even have a drag attached. The operator was following freshly planted stakes put in that day by the state trails crew personnel. Also, take a look ahead of the Tucker in the pic and see how they staked the trail through the valley with a 4 to 5 foot cornice on the other side. Snow cats are a little heavy to be jumping up a 4 to 5 foot cornice. Sorry, but unless you were there you have no idea of the actual snow and trail conditions. The operator was following the stakes set by the trails people when the snow just gave way on the passenger side of the cat. I am not blaming the state trails crew people as they had no idea there was a hollow soft spot at that point in the trail either. It was like a hollowed out very soft area under the snow caused by wind drifting around a tree or bush that was buried. To make matters worse the more you dug to get the cat out the deeper it went into the soft hollow spot with the crab steering.

Can you qualify your expertise in grooming? Have you ever run a snow cat and if so for how long? The guys operating these state snow cats need to be applauded and not slandered as they are doing their best with equipment that often lacks the proper maintenance and may not be suitable for the snow conditions they are working at times. Too many people want to arm chair quarterback the grooming and have no experience and then holler foul. Until you have been in the situation (actually operating) of these fellows out their doing their job, I would be careful on making any accusations.

 

[John Peck]

( Mtntopper ) X2 Most people that make foul comments dont even have a basic idea on how to operate anything but a car and sometimes a sled!! So heres to the people that do the work that others wouldnt!!!

 

[jbmilek]

if you had read my last post you would see that i have 5 years of grooming all with tuckers. i have experienced pretty much every condition imaginable. i have groomed in the south big horns, snowy range, wind river range and the beartooths. i do simpathize with new operators because it is something that can't be learned any other way than to go do it. when i was starting out i got stuck plenty of times but i learned to read the snow and operate the cat within its abilitys. i am not trying to cause grief, i just like people bad mouthing equipment when they don't fully know the capabilitys of the equipment. the tucker is an amazing machine but they do have their limits. i am not an armchair quarterback know it all.

 

[MotoPsycho]

... i have groomed in the south big horns, snowy range, wind river range and the beartooths.

Why are you no longer grooming, and were you one of the three that quit the S. Horns last season?

 

[jbmilek]

no i am not one of the groomers that quit last year, i did fill in for 2 nights to help out. my mechanic skills were in higher demand than grooming. mechanic works is not seasonal liking grooming so its a better deal for me.

 

[mtntopper]

i am not trying to cause grief, i just like people bad mouthing equipment when they don't fully know the capabilitys of the equipment. the tucker is an amazing machine but they do have their limits. i am not an armchair quarterback know it all.

As to grief causing that is not my plan either. I do believe we posted at about the same time last night so that is why I did not see your experience. I am going to assume you mechanic for the state. Is that correct? Have you ever operated any other brand snow cat other than a Tucker when grooming? I have run several different 2 track machines along with a Tucker and I just rate them higher as to capabilities and ability. In my first post I said a Tucker is a great piece of equipment but when it comes to steep and deep the 2 track machines are more capable. Have you ever seen a Tucker used by a ski resort in the mountains for slope maintenance? That is my point. I do believe in some of our mountain areas the state should consider a 2 track machine and more would be accomplished in trail grooming, less cost per mile and quality of trails. We have missed out on winter for several years in many areas of WY with limited snow at best and now that we are getting good snow again I believe a 2 track is cost effective when you consider many of them run 10K+ hours and are still working/grooming in the steep and deep. I have never seen or even heard of a Tucker cat used for grooming with 10K+ hours still operating. Have you?

 

[safesnowrider]

s .......We have missed out on winter for several years in many areas of WY with limited snow at best and now that we are getting good snow

Thank god- so a steel track cat will give you a better trail?? Dude wake up- how many steel grosers or cleats are you gonna replace in low or no snow--get over it

...again I believe a 2 track is cost effective when you consider many of them run 10K+ hours and are still working/grooming in the steep and deep. I have never seen or even heard of a Tucker cat used for grooming with 10K+ hours still operating. Have you?

A snowmobile trail is not - a ski slope- up and down-- why run over 10k hours??? unless you are wasting time your employers money- shame on on you- get over it

 

[MotoPsycho]

....get over it

My 10 year old daughter is sitting here next to me and sharing the joys of these SW posts...

She just stated... "Maybe that guy needs to get over himself"

She is rotten, but the perfect product of her environment!

Sorry Safesnow, but ya can't argue with a woman... especially when she is 10 going on 25...

 

[Frado]

who cares

Not to get flamed here but who cares about what groomer can do what this thread is not about that its about the south bighorns and the riding there if they dont groom the trail I and most everybody
I ride with would care less we don't race or putt around on the trails we only see them when we cross them or have to ride them for the smallest amount of time to get to where the snow gets good ! Ride what you wana ride groom with whatever groomer make your trail hard !!! Bring on the snow grommed or not we are going to ride !!!!

 

[MotoPsycho]

Not to get flamed here but who cares about what groomer can do what this thread is not about that its about the south bighorns and the riding there if they dont groom the trail I and most everybody
I ride with would care less we don't race or putt around on the trails we only see them when we cross them or have to ride them for the smallest amount of time to get to where the snow gets good ! Ride what you wana ride groom with whatever groomer make your trail hard !!! Bring on the snow grommed or not we are going to ride !!!!

Geez Frado, could ya have longer run-on sentences?

 

[Frado]

Shut it Moto

What U a english teacher now ? Or what ! and wher u not suaposta call sum one back in like 15 mins?!?!