I
Best post ever!
So what’s the difference in turbo kits out there?
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Best post ever!
W
5 pages of really good CLEAN reading here, lets keep it up. With the OVS and BD intercoolers be it air/water or air with a fan, is there any kind of boost robbing involved with forcing the air through the cooler? What I mean is, would it take 12 psi of boost on a intercooled system to equal that of 10 psi on a non cooled system? Question #2 is, does (if there is any) the beneift of having an intercooler out weigh the cost of the cooler? On an OVS system for an M, is there anywhere to possibly mount the cooler other than up in the nose of the sled? I tend to be somewhat of a tree magnet and cringe at the thought of cost to replace the exchanger every time I smoke a tree. As far as my turbo experience goes
I run a Twisted 1000 with the 3071
I've got seat time on an OVS M8 with an aero 66 (that was way fun)
a BD M7 retrofitted with Twisted parts
a BD D8 with the mini cooler and several 4 stroke set ups.
Without exeption, the 2 strokes were far quicker responding in my opinion and each kit had something that I liked better than the others. As someone else said, do your research and chose a kit/supplier that you feel you will get the best service from even after you have a year or two on your set up.
I run a Twisted 1000 with the 3071
I've got seat time on an OVS M8 with an aero 66 (that was way fun)
a BD M7 retrofitted with Twisted parts
a BD D8 with the mini cooler and several 4 stroke set ups.
Without exeption, the 2 strokes were far quicker responding in my opinion and each kit had something that I liked better than the others. As someone else said, do your research and chose a kit/supplier that you feel you will get the best service from even after you have a year or two on your set up.
G
1. yes, the smaller the core of the aftercooler the more it takes to move the amount of air needed.
ie, 12 with a minicooler may well be equal to 9 without the minicooler .
This is ONLY a comparison of airflow capabitility NOT a charge temp comparison.
A cooler with the core volume to flow equal to no cooler is the idea, fit and fitment are the issues..
my opinion,, if you want an aftercooler, get one, you won't be disappointed.
My personal RT renagade turbo is carbed and aftercooled. now I just have to make it presentable,,,,,
Damn cooler is going to be the NEW HOOD too !!!big, out front and flowing air
( no dash to allow air OUT of the cooler ).
this is a all day lake runner for low snow lake settings. I will run it 12-18 psi so the cooler for all day is a must.. we'll see how happy I am in january ?
Gus
ie, 12 with a minicooler may well be equal to 9 without the minicooler .
This is ONLY a comparison of airflow capabitility NOT a charge temp comparison.
A cooler with the core volume to flow equal to no cooler is the idea, fit and fitment are the issues..
my opinion,, if you want an aftercooler, get one, you won't be disappointed.
My personal RT renagade turbo is carbed and aftercooled. now I just have to make it presentable,,,,,
Damn cooler is going to be the NEW HOOD too !!!big, out front and flowing air
( no dash to allow air OUT of the cooler ).this is a all day lake runner for low snow lake settings. I will run it 12-18 psi so the cooler for all day is a must.. we'll see how happy I am in january ?
Gus
H
im sure that is a general calculation from auto turbo kit makers with a much larger intercooler.....no way will any sled intercooler drop 25% in pressure across the intercooler,.....but im sure BD has measured pressure across the intercooler, but im sure they wont release this info as folks will just bash it
A fixed intercooler would have its own coefficient number that is used in a general algorithm, flow/pressure would be the two integer variable numbers
T
Wana bet??
Because of your two integer variables, if you ran the numbers through your algorithm through the boost curve, you would reach a point on ANY intercooler where losses outweighed any possible gain. You would also need to take into effect the heat energy generated by restriction as velocity increases.
Remember, the point of a turbo is to create boost IN the engine. That means that nothing else matters except what boost is being delivered into the engine. Pressure drop across a cooler is a very real issue...
Jake
S
The point of any forced induction system is to provide the motor with a supply of higher than atmospheric denisty air. It is the density of the air that matters not simply the boost pressure.
This is why the intercooler is great!
This is why the intercooler is great!
G
Please ,,, Guys ,,
reading is fundamental correct ??
I stated MAY WELL BE Equal too.
I did NOT say IS equal too..
Please read carefully before you freak out.
Gus
ps/
a 2 stroke flows just slightly more than DOUBLE the amount of air as a four for any given size engine..
hows that affect your aftercooler sizing ?
And lastly,, I stated, get one you won't be disappointed.
reading is fundamental correct ??
I stated MAY WELL BE Equal too.
I did NOT say IS equal too..
Please read carefully before you freak out.
Gus
ps/
a 2 stroke flows just slightly more than DOUBLE the amount of air as a four for any given size engine..
hows that affect your aftercooler sizing ?
And lastly,, I stated, get one you won't be disappointed.
Last edited:
T
Ya, I get your argument...That air density is increased as temp lowers so even if pressure lowers as well, the motor will build more power off the increased air density.
Great theory, works well as long as you can flow air through the IC. As Bohne stated, application and fitment become the problems...
Jake
S
I totally agree, it will need some creative thinking and building to get it to work.
T
Well Scavenger, you can rest assured that I have spent a TON of timing trying to figure out a way to build an air to air IC that would be efficient throughout a day of riding through all the different conditions a mountain sled endures...and the end result that I keep coming into is that the IC becomes a heat sink as soon as airflow across it becomes radically restricted. And that happens EVERY time you ride the sled in deep deep pow.
As soon as that thing becomes a heat sink, it becomes a negative to your system. It becomes a heater for all air that passes through it. If it has any pressure drop from restriction that is major negative. (And BTW if the IC is large enough to not have ANY pressure drop from restriction it more than likely has a too large of tubes to cool well or is too large of a unit in general and will cause a serious lag to boost.)
As Ive stated before, we will have somes products out for our XP setups that will get the job done. But right now, our kits work extremely well because of the consistency that the entire design creates.
Jake
As soon as that thing becomes a heat sink, it becomes a negative to your system. It becomes a heater for all air that passes through it. If it has any pressure drop from restriction that is major negative. (And BTW if the IC is large enough to not have ANY pressure drop from restriction it more than likely has a too large of tubes to cool well or is too large of a unit in general and will cause a serious lag to boost.)
As Ive stated before, we will have somes products out for our XP setups that will get the job done. But right now, our kits work extremely well because of the consistency that the entire design creates.
Jake
This has been a good read for a change!
Thanks guys for keeping this clean!
Just looking into the turbo world and have started to collect parts and thoughts.
Thanks guys for keeping this clean!
Just looking into the turbo world and have started to collect parts and thoughts.
S
skull
Guest
there is alot of calculations and application figures out there. I have tried about every kind that i know of
air to air in front of the sled with fan worked ok but needed more air movement. top mount but motor heat rises. back buy the fuel tank but not any air movement there.
air to water off of the cooling lines and worked to keep the air constant temp but not cool enough with out deep snow. plus my motor ran hotter.
Air to snow this was proably the best but on the new sleds it would be hard to fit more lines in the motor area. I had one where i took the front exchanger out and run this ic in its place.
water/meth worked great but to much hassle.
So right now i don't run them at all and have never had any problems. Maybe because i sit at the top of the mountain to long wait'n for every one to get to me.
just my .02 but i am no kit builder.
air to air in front of the sled with fan worked ok but needed more air movement. top mount but motor heat rises. back buy the fuel tank but not any air movement there.
air to water off of the cooling lines and worked to keep the air constant temp but not cool enough with out deep snow. plus my motor ran hotter.
Air to snow this was proably the best but on the new sleds it would be hard to fit more lines in the motor area. I had one where i took the front exchanger out and run this ic in its place.
water/meth worked great but to much hassle.
So right now i don't run them at all and have never had any problems. Maybe because i sit at the top of the mountain to long wait'n for every one to get to me.
just my .02 but i am no kit builder.
C
Don't stop now
You guys have me worried! My dealer did a spring order on several kits and I thought this would be the time to try a turbo on my 09 m8.
Our snow show is in a few weeks, I'm hope most of the kit builders will be present. After reading this I will have alot questions to ask.
I will ask this ? of you guys, I dont think it has anything to do with any kit.
The reeds seem to be an issue, everyone talks about changing them out?
Good thread, I try to read all I can on turbo's, I think there are the way to go, but the cost is way to high to buy wrong kit.
Thanks alot
You guys have me worried! My dealer did a spring order on several kits and I thought this would be the time to try a turbo on my 09 m8.
Our snow show is in a few weeks, I'm hope most of the kit builders will be present. After reading this I will have alot questions to ask.
I will ask this ? of you guys, I dont think it has anything to do with any kit.
The reeds seem to be an issue, everyone talks about changing them out?
Good thread, I try to read all I can on turbo's, I think there are the way to go, but the cost is way to high to buy wrong kit.
Thanks alot
G
Colorado, I don't think there is a bad kit out for the Cats.
All that I know of are well thought out and well backed by them and in field customers who are very helpfull.
For all the chatter about intercoolers and so forth,, they all work damn good, none will leave you looking for more as ANY turbo kit can be upped from pump to race level with only minor tuning adjustments.
yes, some offer larger turbos and coolers or multi injecotrs for more boost or engine cc support..
Whatever shoice you make SOMEONE will be on here to aid you in your tuning and support .
Gus
All that I know of are well thought out and well backed by them and in field customers who are very helpfull.
For all the chatter about intercoolers and so forth,, they all work damn good, none will leave you looking for more as ANY turbo kit can be upped from pump to race level with only minor tuning adjustments.
yes, some offer larger turbos and coolers or multi injecotrs for more boost or engine cc support..
Whatever shoice you make SOMEONE will be on here to aid you in your tuning and support .
Gus
H
use stock M1000 reeds, double them up, use the bottom reeds up top when the top ones go bad......as the top will go bad well before the bottom will
some peolpe buy tony dukas.....i had them and they "do not" last longer then cheapo stock reeds...but they do cost more
C
Turbo kits
Thank you, for your help. I'LL keep reading and asking. Hopefully most of the kit builders will make it to the Denver show.
I've got alot more questions, to get answered after reading this thread.
Thanks again.
Thank you, for your help. I'LL keep reading and asking. Hopefully most of the kit builders will make it to the Denver show.
I've got alot more questions, to get answered after reading this thread.
Thanks again.
W
How is the size of the airbox in a turbo system calculated? I don't rember seeing any discusion on this. If you were to build a smaller volume air box, wouldn't charge pressure build quicker resulting in quicker throttle/boost response? Would there be any negative impacts to building a smaller box?
Unless you have some way to bring in air (like thru reeds or an active valve)... Small airboxes do not perform well when the engine is operating at low speed and boost levels are negative or right around the tip in point....
