SIDE HILLING AND AVYS

[snowmobiler]

i think if a hill is going to slide,it will slide.sidehill or climbing dont really matter.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304130

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

i think if a hill is going to slide,it will slide.sidehill or climbing dont really matter.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304130

Not true.
All avys are triggered by something. Snowpack conditions are dynamic and change constantly, either getting more, or less stable. Certainly there are times when a slope just lets go "on it's own" because of shifts in temperature or wind, or the faintest ground tremor but there are also are periods when the force of adhesion is slightly greater than the weight of the snow and the weight of a skier or sledder is enough to break it free.

 

[snowmobiler]

trying to say in that video it wouldnt matter if u were sidehilling or going straight up, it still would have slide.

 

[snowmanx]

Thanks for the great post Wolf. That has been my observation as well. It stands to reason the more we sidehill the more chances we take even if we are on good conditions we are testing more trigger points on the hill therefore we are going to have more slides. Is my observation correct that we have more sidehilling than we had 5 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Probably.

Sledder avy deaths skyrocketed in the mid-90's, (compared to the 80's) when sled technology allowed more and more riders to reach the backcountry. Given the advances in chassis development since 2000 it's no surprise that the number of sledders with first hand avy experience has gone up. "Back in the day" as the expression goes it took a strong, in-shape, expert rider to hold an extended sidehill because only the best riders could get those older machines to do things they didn't want to do.

Now we have purpose-built mountain sleds that just about any moron can sidehill, and guess what? Lots of morons are out there sidehilling.

So now we're morons (or idiots) if we sidehill?

Just asking.

Is sidehilling now taboo?

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

So now we're morons (or idiots) if we sidehill?

Just asking.

Is sidehilling now taboo?

No not at all. Sidehilling is a blast.
My point is that when something is hard to do only the skilled and dedicated get to do it with any regularity, but when technology succeeds in making the difficult easy it lowers the degree of skill required and opens that formerly difficult thing to the masses. The law of averages holds that the more people involved in a particular activity, the lower the median levels of skill and dedication, and the higher the probability of mishaps.

New machines are easier to ride. Easy requires less dedication to master. The less dedicated tend to be mentally lazy. The mentally lazy, as a group, tend to have a higher distribution of morons.

Therefore, newer, easier to ride machines = more morons on the hill. It does not mean that everyone on a new machine is a moron.

 

[revrider07]

I am in agreement with Wolff on his last post. It used to take a skilled rider with lots of time in the backcounty now just lay down 12000 and sidehill all day long with no exp in the backcountry.

 

[0neoldfart]

My 2 cents

Bear with me, I'm long winded... I have no formal classroom avalanche training, but have been riding mountains for over 20 years. In that time I have learned from those who were unfortunate victims, from well seasoned veterans, and from my own experiences. I do believe avy training is beneficial, but I have been procrastinating for the last 10 years. My take on it is this: Due to lack of snow, mountain riding is far more popular then it was years ago, the machinery will take us places we dreamt of years ago, and our society has conditioned us to need to feel "safe". I know several people that have their AST 1, but disregard weather patterns, snow conditions, and warning signs on a regular basis. They feel that the airbag they have on their back and the knowledge they gained from a course makes them "safe". Nothing could be farther from the truth in my opinion.
I wear a beacon and snopulse bag, carry a shovel & probe, and know how to use them all. I also follow weather patterns from fall until spring in the areas I ride to watch for warming trends or breaks between snowfalls, and also stay current with avy bulletins and weather. I will often probe an area before I ride it, and dig a pit to inspect the layers. Can't say I've seen another sledder dig a pit to check snowpack in the last five years, unless they were enrolled in an avy course at the time...
Your best defense against being caught in an avalanche is perched on your shoulders. If you don't use it, you will become or cause another statistic at some point - mother nature can be very sadistic and cruel if she chooses to be...Take an AST 1 course, and apply what you have learned every day you ride. Be safe out there.

 

[m8magicandmystery]

[

Now we have purpose-built mountain sleds that just about any moron can sidehill, and guess what? Lots of morons are out there sidehilling.

so there is an opportunity to sell maps to "moron proof sled area"s"

send me one...

 

[m8magicandmystery]

second thought ...no area is safe from a moron....im staying in bed..

 

[Leaf27]

I prefer avalanche avoidance rather than avalanche awareness.

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

I prefer avalanche avoidance rather than avalanche awareness.

Amen, Brother.

 

[Matte Murder]

Good thread, it started to falter and you guys brought it back on course and made it useful. The thing I really try and do is not "stack" up the probability of getting caught in an avy that can hurt me or someone in my group. Add up things like a high avy rating to a 35 degree slope to wind loading to sun exposure etc. That said I don't sweat the little stuff that can't hurt you. We rode last weekend in great spring conditions and were setting off really small slides while sidehilling. The snow pack was really stable except for the top 6". Or really small slopes at shallow angles, no matter what happens there isn't enough there to bury you. Get educated, get your gear, practice with it, check conditions before every ride, be aware and live to ride another day. I won't be chased out of the mountains. Most days the drive up is by far the most dangerous thing you will do all day.

 

[off road rider]

Interesting thread.
I'm a single ski rider, Snowbikes and snowhawks. Riding sidehill is what we do, sometimes extreme angles that frankly scare the crap out of me. In one ride we probably ride more sidehill than most Sledders do in an entire season or even lifetime.
I have yet to see a slide that would not have happened anyways, Then again we are avy trained and do think before we hit the slope.
Saying that sidehilling alone causes avys is a bit off base in my book.
I would say that it can be a trigger, but if thats the case you shouldnt be there in the first place..

 

[Timber12]

I'm no expert or anything, but the way i look at the OP's original question is like taking two pieces of 8x10 paper. First one I hold up by one end, and cut in the center from the bottom almost all the way to the top. The paper hangs relatively unchanged. Next one I hold the same but cut horizontally almost all the way. Same thing happens that does on the slopes.

 

[Jeff C]

Sidehilling avalanches might be more common because when you run laterally across a hill, you are "testing" the strength of the snow on a hill in a wider area. As the sled presses the snow downhill, you are more likely to find a weak spot as you progress across the hill.

Of course I have zero data to confirm that, but it would seem to me that given any particular slope (Sidehilling-vs-straight up) you are more likely to find a weak spot on that slope by sidehilling..........QUOTE]

^^^^^^^Winnah! Winnah! Sheen Dinnah!^^^^^^^

It's important to understand force vectors as a function of weak snow as it relates to avalanches.

Stupid question: Which direction do avalanches go once released?
Stupid answer: Downhill.

Why?....Gravity.

Gravity is a constant* linear force...it always pulls straight down. On any given slope the adhesion of the snowpack will vary due to variations in the slope: surface contours, composition (rock vs vegetation) angle, orientation to the sun and wind, and snow depth.

Accordingly, the amount of force required to trigger an avalanche will vary as well but what the various trigger thresholds share in common is they are vertically oriented on the slope. So, when you pull a long sidehill you are cutting across dozens if not hundreds of potential release points.

Think of it this way: The snowpack is like a giant heavy curtain held to the mountain by ropes tied along its upper edge. These "ropes" are the force vectors determined by the amount of friction in the snowpack. Each of the "ropes" varies in "thickness" i.e. the amount of force it takes to break them. Depending on the variable conditions I mentioned before, these "ropes" can be heavy tow lines or thin threads.

So, if you make a typical highmark run you cut a relatively narrow horizontal line on the mountain and so you cross very few potential trigger points, but if you cut a long sidehill your sled acts like a knife dragging across all those ropes. Running your "knife" across a thick rope may weaken it a bit but it won't cut it. However, if you continue your line long enough AND there's a weak "thread" ahead of you...you'll cut it and the mountain will release.

Hope this helps

*constant enough for this discussion

There I fixed it for ya.......... LOL