SIDE HILLING AND AVYS

[suitcase]

Great point, what works in a class room does not always apply in the real world!!!

I will also say after really looking at the vid. I would have been right there with you, and headed down off the the hill with out a big concern. The only thing that would of stoped me, would have been if I seen cracks in the snow.
But it just what I do. Im out there to enjoy myself, my sled, and the terrain. Yes I would say I push it a little more than most, and I do take caution. There are many times when I say when, I not stupid. But Im out there to do what I do....

So as I say: Tear it up, be safe!!!! LOL if it was always safe everyone would be doing it!!!

 

[revrider07]

Thanks for the replies and info I ride wiser every year with more knowledge every year. My friend does not ride anymore his arthitis is to bad. The snow is always changing and maybe I ride more backcountry than most. When we have low snow years its always bad there is nothing but marbles next to the ground its going to be bad all year. The more weight on the marbles its going to slide. High snow fall this spring could spell disaster for lots of sledders people seem to think that if it settles for three to five days its gets safe but I don't think it will this year just my opinion.

 

[modsledr]

I did not post a video and don't see one on this thread. I don't know how long you have been riding but you must not ride in the mts or are a trail rider that does not leave the trail. Have you ever rode cooke city or the gould colorado area that is where we ride and yes it is high avy area. I choose to ride these areas. From your statements you would not ride these areas at all the danger is high in these areas. Guys riding cooke this year see avys almost every day and remotely set them off. The more time spent in backcounty learning snow conditions is more than any class can ever teach you, my teacher was a gentleman that is 70 years old. Lived and rode the mts of colorado all his life.

Sorry, comment about the video and Utah Avy Center were meant for another thread.

You're right, you don't know anything about my riding or where I ride, but you are showing your ignorance by making a lot of assumptions. If your're just trying to insult me and get a rise, it will take a lot more than that.

You make it sound like Cooke is the only place with big mountains that get high avy danger. Hate to break it to you, but there are bigger and badder places to ride out there. We educate ourselves so that we CAN ride these areas REGARDLESS of the rating (and yes, these are the areas we ride). That's the whole point of education, is to be able to ride the steep and deep in the worst of conditions and still ride safe. To be able to use the Avy report, and field reports, and make terrain decisions based on those reports. It doesn't mean don't ride, but rather allows you to make a safe decision regardless.

That's all I mean when I say to get educated. I don't care if you can dig a pit or tell me about the molecular makeup of the snow...I care that you know where the danger lies and can ride safer areas with the danger is HIGH.

Again, you guys can get defensive all you want...but knowledge and education WILL help save your life.

 

[modsledr]

Here's a cool video showing "propagation"...remote trigger potential.

CO Avy Center Propagation Test

If you look at the pics in the beginning, I bet you'll see tree areas that you might be riding thinking they are "safe"...but you can easily remote trigger an avy, even from the trees.

When you sidehill, you are taking the added load of the sled/rider and applying it across a horizontal area, breaking the bonds as you go. Eventually, enough load is applied and the hill breaks.

When you go straight up a hill, your load is more vertical, so the bonds are not broken across the hill.

This is why you often see the hill break when the rider turns out from a climb...they are changing the load from vertical to horizontal.

 

[suitcase]

Very instuctive vid.
I think one can surely say that this winter season will continue to be unsafe, IMO I don't think the fasets will ever bond from the early snow that we recieved.

Tear it up, Be safe!

 

[revrider07]

Good vidieo I knew back in early december we were setting up for a high danger when most of that snow fell with rain mix. I have seen faces torn up sidehilling only my point is I know this is more of a danger just hoping that more people read this and realize they are at more at risk vs going straight up. The sleds let riders sidehill way easier and go higher on the face than 5 years ago getting them in more danger.

 

[snowmoherb]

Maybe its just me but I have set off avys and it has always happened when side hilling. The sled going across and cutting the snow like a knife on a steep slope I used to think that it was fun to cut a knarly line on a hill but now I never cut an open face that is huge. What is your opionion on this thanks in advance.

one question I have reading all this is: When you say you set off an avy, how big, and how deep... Are these all brushes with death, or little slides that are not really dangerous?

 

[revrider07]

I have not set off a major one in 10 years. That one could have been bad but education and being safe one rider on hill at a time fellow riders in a safe spot. It was 3 to 6 feet deep by 700 feet and runout was close to 2500 feet. Snow slabs were as big a pickups. The avy danger was low and was in late march very popular hill not Known to slide. As a group that day we learned a lot we surveyed the slide area and the snow had a week layer close to the ground. It took all of the snow down to the ground. The snow layers we have today are very similiar to that year. I have been in another small slide 1 foot to 60 feet and 100 feet run out. I know there is more riders out there with same exp as me but are afraid to share their exp for fear of be bashed. I try and not ride when danger is high but this year it would mean not riding at all. There is lots of riding out there that is safe but many locations require traveling though runouts that people never see. I have seen roads closed in mtns due to snow slides better not drive that rode unless you educated on snow survival.

 

[B C]

Must suck waiting for the Pros to break trail.

 

[cpatts2000]

Good thread, I hope it raises some awareness. Training is only as good as the head that you put it in, and your head is way better with GOOD training. I have been riding for over 20 years but luckily I did not have a the sled capability that we have now or I would have been dead in the first 10(before my eduction started). Sidehilling vs. a point and shoot don't make that much of a difference, if you hit the trigger point and the slope is ready to go, it will go. We have many tools at our disposal to help recognize when you should ride a certain aspect or not. If you keep a close eye on your avy reports and KNOW HOW TO USE THEM, they will pretty much tell you exactly what is going on in the snow. Taking an uneducated chance when you go out is your decision, but think about how it will effect the people around you, then think about loosing your best friend because of the decision you made. Could you ever forgive yourself? Not trying to preach here, but I have been an avy educator for years now and I am tired of hearing "if you ride in the steep and deep you have to accept the danger", BULL****, you are being ignorant. I ride it all the time, but I will not make a decision that will adversely affect the people in my life. I know how to do this because of training, not because I ride more in the backcountry than another guy. Good post and thanks for being honest.

P.S. Mod is a hell of a rider, and practices what he preaches. We are all here just to help.

 

[revrider07]

If you think you are always safe and not taking risks by being in the backcounty you should stay out of it you will become a stastistic. It does not matter if its sledding, skiing, snowboarding, hiking, and hunting I am sure I am missing a few but in the backcounty you are responsible for your actions. Not much risk staying home and playing x-box thats why I don't own one. I love the mts spend lots of time in them hunting, hiking and sleddin be safe out there and never let you gaurd down.

 

[cpatts2000]

If you think you are always safe and not taking risks by being in the backcounty you should stay out of it you will become a stastistic.

Yes and no, you take some risk just driving to the snowpark. I do all of the things that you do in the backcountry, but I don't hunt without without thinking about where my game is going to be. I am just preaching proper preparation and then using your head when you are out there. If you are cutting loose avy's, you are not using the knowledge that you should have gained in your avy eduction. If you "Know before you go" you should know where your dangers are. The most important tool you can have over beacon, shovel, etc, is your head and your knowledge. Your head does you no good if you don't understand what is going on with the snowpack and the weather, and this comes from good training. Lucky for us most avy reports tell us exactly what the snowpack is doing and what the weather trends are. If you think that you are smarter than a avy forecaster, then you are mistaken, it is what they do. Try this, if you wont ride a slope without your beacon, then you should not be on the slope. I am not saying to not wear your beacon, just think about that when you are out there.

To address your comment about taking a risk. There is one common occurrence that happens in every avy fatality, a mistake has been made. Avalanches do not just happen, they are predictable and avoidable. give me an example of a fatality where the person "did nothing wrong" and I can show you that they made a mistake.

I don't think for a minute that I can't be caught and killed in an avy, but if I do, I have made some serious human errors that has caused it. I wish that I could have you attend one of my avy classes and see what you thought at the end. Our classes are not in the classroom, they are 100% on the snow. Again thank you for starting this thread, they are very useful even when they get a little heated.

chad

 

[revrider07]

You are saying that all avys with fatalities are human triggered? I have seen where the wind loads ridges and they go on there own and put snow on top of paved hiways. I am just saying that alot of places where I ride have slides this year have happened naturally. I have not ridden west coast but from nothern mt to chama nm. I wish some riders from the north would chime in on this thread. The snow falling from every event is hardly ever the same I am sure the snow that falls on the coast if different from mt or wy. My opionion on sidehilling is more risk of triggering slides vs straight up.

 

[cpatts2000]

nope I am not saying that they are all triggered by humans, but if you were below it, that would be a human error because they were predicted. Most of the time the hiway dept does not wait for an avy to come down before they close the pass. The avy's are predicted so they close them and wait to see or shoot them. If you are in an avy run out zone in HIGH avy danger as predicted by a report, you have made a mistake. If you have to be there make sure you are one at a time. Snow being different from every event is why there is a snowpack analysis in the avy report. I am disagreeing with you that sidehilling is more risky, maybe because you are on the slope more, but an avy goes when you hit the trigger point, no matter what direction you are going. You could also argue that more avy are triggered going strait up because the sled starts to auger in and hits the weak layer, which released the slab. Also you are correct is saying that coastal snow is different from interior, but I ride it all, and I always read the reports and know before I go.

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

Sidehilling avalanches might be more common because when you run laterally across a hill, you are "testing" the strength of the snow on a hill in a wider area. As the sled presses the snow downhill, you are more likely to find a weak spot as you progress across the hill.

Of course I have zero data to confirm that, but it would seem to me that given any particular slope (Sidehilling-vs-straight up) you are more likely to find a weak spot on that slope by sidehilling..........QUOTE]

^^^^^^^Winnah! Winnah! Chicken Dinnah!^^^^^^^

It's important to understand force vectors as a function of weak snow as it relates to avalanches.

Stupid question: Which direction do avalanches go once released?
Stupid answer: Downhill.

Why?....Gravity.

Gravity is a constant* linear force...it always pulls straight down. On any given slope the adhesion of the snowpack will vary due to variations in the slope: surface contours, composition (rock vs vegetation) angle, orientation to the sun and wind, and snow depth.

Accordingly, the amount of force required to trigger an avalanche will vary as well but what the various trigger thresholds share in common is they are vertically oriented on the slope. So, when you pull a long sidehill you are cutting across dozens if not hundreds of potential release points.

Think of it this way: The snowpack is like a giant heavy curtain held to the mountain by ropes tied along its upper edge. These "ropes" are the force vectors determined by the amount of friction in the snowpack. Each of the "ropes" varies in "thickness" i.e. the amount of force it takes to break them. Depending on the variable conditions I mentioned before, these "ropes" can be heavy tow lines or thin threads.

So, if you make a typical highmark run you cut a relatively narrow horizontal line on the mountain and so you cross very few potential trigger points, but if you cut a long sidehill your sled acts like a knife dragging across all those ropes. Running your "knife" across a thick rope may weaken it a bit but it won't cut it. However, if you continue your line long enough AND there's a weak "thread" ahead of you...you'll cut it and the mountain will release.

Hope this helps

*constant enough for this discussion

 

[jzanc532]

^^Excellent explanation Fourth Wolf!

 

[CatRyder88]

Here is a perfect example of what not to do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfymOcAZcsQ

 

[James T Kirk]

Rideing in the backcounty this year is really dangerous and most small slope are sliding. I wanted some opionions other than mine and my buddies. I think buy shareing knowledge and exp we can be more aware of our surroundings the avy conditions are always changing and every year is not the same. I see more and more of this sidehilling on terrain that normally would not slide but it is being set loose even on very small slopes and I think it is do to cuttting the layers down to almost the ground. There is always risk when in the backcountry mtns are a pretty place but can be deadly if not respected.

Actually, most of the avy problem this season is due to buried Persistant Weak Layers (PWLs) in the snowpack caused by early snow followed by an extended dry spell. In this case the snow "rots" forming faceted crystals (facets) which, when buried will linger unchanged for a very long time. Most of the time you dont have to trench down to this kind of layer to set it off, simply weighting the slab is enough, hence the fact that remote triggering has been happening as well.

If you actually took the time to dig a pit and look at a snow profile these layers will stick out like a sore thumb, but you already know this being "well educated", right?

 

[revrider07]

Thanks for the great post Wolf. That has been my observation as well. It stands to reason the more we sidehill the more chances we take even if we are on good conditions we are testing more trigger points on the hill therefore we are going to have more slides. Is my observation correct that we have more sidehilling than we had 5 years ago.

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

Thanks for the great post Wolf. That has been my observation as well. It stands to reason the more we sidehill the more chances we take even if we are on good conditions we are testing more trigger points on the hill therefore we are going to have more slides. Is my observation correct that we have more sidehilling than we had 5 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Probably.

Sledder avy deaths skyrocketed in the mid-90's, (compared to the 80's) when sled technology allowed more and more riders to reach the backcountry. Given the advances in chassis development since 2000 it's no surprise that the number of sledders with first hand avy experience has gone up. "Back in the day" as the expression goes it took a strong, in-shape, expert rider to hold an extended sidehill because only the best riders could get those older machines to do things they didn't want to do.

Now we have purpose-built mountain sleds that just about any moron can sidehill, and guess what? Lots of morons are out there sidehilling.