Maybe its just me but I have set off avys and it has always happened when side hilling. The sled going across and cutting the snow like a knife on a steep slope I used to think that it was fun to cut a knarly line on a hill but now I never cut an open face that is huge. What is your opionion on this thanks in advance.
SIDE HILLING AND AVYS
- Thread starter revrider07
- Start date
M
modsledr
Well-known member
while I appreciate that you now "never cut an open face that is huge"...I think you need some avy awareness education. From your comments ("Maybe its just me but I have set off avys"), you have set off multiple avys...you are lucky to be alive.
Get some education before we read about you in the news.
Get some education before we read about you in the news.
I have over 20 years of mt riding exp and I take a refesher avy class every few years. I practice locating beacans in real conditions in the mts. I log more than 2000 miles in the mts per year. There is way more sidehilling today than there has ever been. I DO NOT have to be told that I need more avy trainning. I know the risks of ridding in the backcounty. I was looking for some opionions from fellow backcounty ridders that ride knarly terrain and not from my mother
Sidehilling avalanches might be more common because when you run laterally across a hill, you are "testing" the strength of the snow on a hill in a wider area. As the sled presses the snow downhill, you are more likely to find a weak spot as you progress across the hill.
Of course I have zero data to confirm that, but it would seem to me that given any particular slope (Sidehilling-vs-straight up) you are more likely to find a weak spot on that slope by sidehilling..........
I love it when someone asks a question about avalanches, and someone reading thinks the question is noobish, that automatically the "Get avalanche training" card gets played.
He does not need a lecture on avalanche training, he is asking a legitimate question and wants input.......
Of course I have zero data to confirm that, but it would seem to me that given any particular slope (Sidehilling-vs-straight up) you are more likely to find a weak spot on that slope by sidehilling..........
I love it when someone asks a question about avalanches, and someone reading thinks the question is noobish, that automatically the "Get avalanche training" card gets played.
He does not need a lecture on avalanche training, he is asking a legitimate question and wants input.......
Rideing in the backcounty this year is really dangerous and most small slope are sliding. I wanted some opionions other than mine and my buddies. I think buy shareing knowledge and exp we can be more aware of our surroundings the avy conditions are always changing and every year is not the same. I see more and more of this sidehilling on terrain that normally would not slide but it is being set loose even on very small slopes and I think it is do to cuttting the layers down to almost the ground. There is always risk when in the backcountry mtns are a pretty place but can be deadly if not respected.
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Arctic Thunder
Well-known member
Modsledr, looking at your icon I believe you need more avy training.
The snow appears to be light and fluffy, you are on a hill and the potential that day the picture taken looks extreme.
I really wish you wouldn't put pictures on here that the novice/beginner would think is acceptable behavior in avalanche areas.
All kidding aside. Rev asked a valid question and doesn't need superman telling him he is stupid for asking.
And Rev, I am sure Mod will blast me because when their is snow in the mountains we should all stay home and play on the xbox. But, after evaluating the snow conditions in an area, including digging and looking at the layer formations and such, we typically will make a couple nice side hill cuts, working the trench deep and then using this as another tool to read the conditions.
I would never hit a big open hill and cut across it as the first shot of the day. And after it has a bunch of vertical cuts sidehilling isn't much fun then anyway. That isn't very smart for sure.
Thunder
The snow appears to be light and fluffy, you are on a hill and the potential that day the picture taken looks extreme.
I really wish you wouldn't put pictures on here that the novice/beginner would think is acceptable behavior in avalanche areas.
All kidding aside. Rev asked a valid question and doesn't need superman telling him he is stupid for asking.
And Rev, I am sure Mod will blast me because when their is snow in the mountains we should all stay home and play on the xbox. But, after evaluating the snow conditions in an area, including digging and looking at the layer formations and such, we typically will make a couple nice side hill cuts, working the trench deep and then using this as another tool to read the conditions.
I would never hit a big open hill and cut across it as the first shot of the day. And after it has a bunch of vertical cuts sidehilling isn't much fun then anyway. That isn't very smart for sure.
Thunder
M
modsledr
Well-known member
I'm not here to blast anyone. A T, by your own description, your group evaluates the snow conditions in a comprehensive manner...this tells me you have some education, and know how to use it.
My comments made NO assumption of riding experience or skill level. I dont care how long someone has been riding...the mountains have NO memory of you being there before.
Over and over we hear avalanche survivors make statements like "I've been riding for 20 years and have never seen that hill slide".
The Avy professionals in Montana, Wyoming, and Utah RIGHT NOW are saying that slopes are sliding they have never seen slide before...these are people who's job is to track conditions.
revrider07, if you had phrased your question like your last post, I would have had an entirely different response. But when, by your own admission, you have set off several avy's in the past, my response will ALWAYS be the same.
Blast Away.
My comments made NO assumption of riding experience or skill level. I dont care how long someone has been riding...the mountains have NO memory of you being there before.
Over and over we hear avalanche survivors make statements like "I've been riding for 20 years and have never seen that hill slide".
The Avy professionals in Montana, Wyoming, and Utah RIGHT NOW are saying that slopes are sliding they have never seen slide before...these are people who's job is to track conditions.
revrider07, if you had phrased your question like your last post, I would have had an entirely different response. But when, by your own admission, you have set off several avy's in the past, my response will ALWAYS be the same.
Blast Away.
Last Saturday in Grand Lake, there were a couple of guys doing vertical pulls on Gravel Mtn. Shortly after, there were LOTS of guys starting to do sidehilling... all the way across, just below the cornice, and MANY on the hill at the same time! Stuck on the slope alone? No problem... as at least half-a-dozen riders would do laps over and around them. And what about the pile of riders waiting and watching? Yup, they were all in a herd right at the bottom of the hill, right in the center, most of the sleds facing the slope. Needless to say we got the hell out of there. Later the same day, we went back and were VERY surprised to see that the mountain hadn't come down, but it didn't.
You would think that under the current avy danger in the area, the east-facing slope, and the angle of the slope, that everyone would have given that hill a wide berth. I saw pretty much every possible WRONG WAY to be on that hill, and all at the same time.
Revrider; it's purely your choice (and life) if you're doing some sidehilling 'alone' or with some other peeps that are in a safe zone. But based on your question here, at least you're cognizent of the fact there might be a problem with setting off a huge slab-avy on yourself, and I'm assuming you're also thinking of others that may be adversly impacted (literally) by your activities. From what I saw last weekend, I'm surprised we didn't have a mass-fatality situation on our hands... but fate and luck were being kind to everyone on that hill that day... "everyone" that made the choice to be where they were and do what they were doing.
Our small group watched for a while, sitting there with our avy beacons, shovels, probes, GPS/GRMS radios, and avy airbags locked and loaded. When the sidehilling started, we made the decision to LEAVE!
At least you're thinking about it! Most don't seem to!
You would think that under the current avy danger in the area, the east-facing slope, and the angle of the slope, that everyone would have given that hill a wide berth. I saw pretty much every possible WRONG WAY to be on that hill, and all at the same time.
Revrider; it's purely your choice (and life) if you're doing some sidehilling 'alone' or with some other peeps that are in a safe zone. But based on your question here, at least you're cognizent of the fact there might be a problem with setting off a huge slab-avy on yourself, and I'm assuming you're also thinking of others that may be adversly impacted (literally) by your activities. From what I saw last weekend, I'm surprised we didn't have a mass-fatality situation on our hands... but fate and luck were being kind to everyone on that hill that day... "everyone" that made the choice to be where they were and do what they were doing.
Our small group watched for a while, sitting there with our avy beacons, shovels, probes, GPS/GRMS radios, and avy airbags locked and loaded. When the sidehilling started, we made the decision to LEAVE!
At least you're thinking about it! Most don't seem to!
This is what I wanted people to talk about their snow adventure on faces. I am well educated on snow but some are not keep this thread going. One of the problems is as soon a someone says avy they get bashed on this site. Lots of riders are afraid of posting some of there exps for this reason but maybe we can learn something from each other and be more safe on the hill.
I am no professional ---
I'll preface this to say the snowpack on any given hill was explained to me as a rubber band being pulled apart. Where it breaks is the trigger point. However, weaknesses and multiple trigger points can occurr anywhere on the slope due to terrain features, rocks, trees, other sled tracks, etc.
I think it is that you have a greater likelihood of 'hitting the trigger' sidehilling than riding straight up/down a slope. By that I mean when sidehilling you are cutting a clean line across the slope thereby weakening the snowpack and putting greater pressure on the trigger point(s). When taking the fall-line down the hill you may ride directly over the trigger point and not set off an avy. Perhaps this because your sled didn't dig down deep enough or the bond at other points in the snowpack is strong enough to hold it together. Lots of factors involved - dig a pit if you're still unsure don't ride it!
I'll preface this to say the snowpack on any given hill was explained to me as a rubber band being pulled apart. Where it breaks is the trigger point. However, weaknesses and multiple trigger points can occurr anywhere on the slope due to terrain features, rocks, trees, other sled tracks, etc.
I think it is that you have a greater likelihood of 'hitting the trigger' sidehilling than riding straight up/down a slope. By that I mean when sidehilling you are cutting a clean line across the slope thereby weakening the snowpack and putting greater pressure on the trigger point(s). When taking the fall-line down the hill you may ride directly over the trigger point and not set off an avy. Perhaps this because your sled didn't dig down deep enough or the bond at other points in the snowpack is strong enough to hold it together. Lots of factors involved - dig a pit if you're still unsure don't ride it!
Yes, depending on conditions, very easy to break an avy loose sidehilling just by staying on the hill longer increases your chances this will happen. This happened in '04 before I had any avy training, I got my "once".
I think the bigger point that modsledr is trying to make is that people need to USE the knowledge that they get in the avy classes. Time and time again we see people that have been riding for a long time, or skiing or snowboarding for a long time, people that teach avy awareness, people that have the knowledge about avy and all sorts of stuff die, not because of their lack of knowledge but because of their lack of using their knowledge.
Look at the 3 people that died up at Stevens pass this last weekend. These weren't amateurs, these guys were pro's and had the knowledge they needed. It seems like they just didn't use it, IMO.
The op stated he has taken the classes but then states he has sets off avy's.. From the classes I have taken, if you are setting off avy's you are doing something WRONG!!!!
Anyways, carry on..
R
rmk addict
New member
Your observation is correct revrider, and I would agree sidehilling is certainly a way to trigger avalanches. .
I think on the technical side, while sidehilling, one's "stress bulb" is transferred much deeper into the snowpack, not to mention penetrating multiple layers of snow at the same time. Depending on the snowpack, a person could be cutting down to a layer that would fail. These type of maneuvers seem to put a lot of stress on the snowpack.
Another thing with snowmobiling these days, is that a person can cover so much terrain that you can ride every aspect, on multiple elevations with multiple exposures in a very short time period. Unless you get out and dig a hasty pit every time you change locations, or ride every storm cycle, you will never be certain.
Everyone should be educated, snowmobilers are the highest statistic every year in avalanche fatalities.
Ruffryder is right, the people at stevens pass did ignore a lot of red flags. It's important to know when to go, and when to take it easy.
Be safe out there, this years seems to have an especially tender snowpack.
I think on the technical side, while sidehilling, one's "stress bulb" is transferred much deeper into the snowpack, not to mention penetrating multiple layers of snow at the same time. Depending on the snowpack, a person could be cutting down to a layer that would fail. These type of maneuvers seem to put a lot of stress on the snowpack.
Another thing with snowmobiling these days, is that a person can cover so much terrain that you can ride every aspect, on multiple elevations with multiple exposures in a very short time period. Unless you get out and dig a hasty pit every time you change locations, or ride every storm cycle, you will never be certain.
Everyone should be educated, snowmobilers are the highest statistic every year in avalanche fatalities.
Ruffryder is right, the people at stevens pass did ignore a lot of red flags. It's important to know when to go, and when to take it easy.
Be safe out there, this years seems to have an especially tender snowpack.
M
modsledr
Well-known member
I have no issues at all with discussion...and will be more than happy to share my knowledge to hopefully add to the discussion.
And "avy" is not my trigger point...it's your admission that you've had multiple incidents that raises my red flag...followed with a video that APPEARS to show you on the slope 2 at a time.
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I did not post a video and don't see one on this thread. I don't know how long you have been riding but you must not ride in the mts or are a trail rider that does not leave the trail. Have you ever rode cooke city or the gould colorado area that is where we ride and yes it is high avy area. I choose to ride these areas. From your statements you would not ride these areas at all the danger is high in these areas. Guys riding cooke this year see avys almost every day and remotely set them off. The more time spent in backcounty learning snow conditions is more than any class can ever teach you, my teacher was a gentleman that is 70 years old. Lived and rode the mts of colorado all his life.
S
suitcase
Well-known member
What I find interesting is when someone has a question, or a pic, or vid, of something that has happened to them in the mtns there are a bunch jump to say you need training. You don't need to be here, or you don't need to be riding there. Yes everyone should have Avy training of one level or another. But this is the net, where people want to talk about there advetures and have questions addressed. Not to here from there mothers about how stupid they are or how they need training.
Like I stated I'm all for training! My 12 old son gets training about Avy's.
I don't think threads like this need to be turned into a you should get trained thread. It seems to be happening alot. So IMO just address the question they ask. don't run it into another topic. If you want to tell people how they need training, start your own thread!
OK im done, sorry guys. Don't beat me to much!!! LOL
I would have to agree with jeff on this one, you and your sled cover alot more area on a hill side, when side hilling v.s. running a line stright up a hill. So you are more apet to find the unstable snow.
Like I stated I'm all for training! My 12 old son gets training about Avy's.
I don't think threads like this need to be turned into a you should get trained thread. It seems to be happening alot. So IMO just address the question they ask. don't run it into another topic. If you want to tell people how they need training, start your own thread!
OK im done, sorry guys. Don't beat me to much!!! LOL
I would have to agree with jeff on this one, you and your sled cover alot more area on a hill side, when side hilling v.s. running a line stright up a hill. So you are more apet to find the unstable snow.
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I'm guessing that in his lifetime he did not set off multiple avy's while sidehilling, and if he had, he would have realized that he was doing something wrong, so he was able to "live to ride another day." This is a good topic, talking about it at least(hopefully) gets people thinking about it, and if it saves a life by doing so then GREAT. Modsledr has got you thinking because of his input, and that's whats great about this forum, don't think he's bashing you, because he cares about his fellow sledders. We are already starting to see too many avy deaths this year, good time to re evaluate, it can happen oh so fast, and if its happens more often the odds are stacked against you. Ride safe.
A
Arctic Thunder
Well-known member
Now I know this will start a $hit storm.
But I have to toss it out.
I am going out on a limb here but I would bet that the guy that has spent 20+ years in the mountains riding and pushing himself and his equipment to the limit has gained a tremendous amount of avalanche knowledge. And I will also say that some of this knowledge was the "holy Crap that was close" knowledge, but thats how some have learned.
So in turn I have to believe just because you have been to an avy class being taught by some book smart engineer type doesn't mean jack crap. (Now not saying everyone is this way, so you trainers don't get wound up)(But I am here to tell ya, training isn't the ONLY answer) You have to use your head.
Bottom line is be smart. And use the knowledge you have gained in all forms over the years, Snowest, mountain experience, books, etc.
Ride safe.
Thunder
But I have to toss it out.
I am going out on a limb here but I would bet that the guy that has spent 20+ years in the mountains riding and pushing himself and his equipment to the limit has gained a tremendous amount of avalanche knowledge. And I will also say that some of this knowledge was the "holy Crap that was close" knowledge, but thats how some have learned.
So in turn I have to believe just because you have been to an avy class being taught by some book smart engineer type doesn't mean jack crap. (Now not saying everyone is this way, so you trainers don't get wound up)(But I am here to tell ya, training isn't the ONLY answer) You have to use your head.
Bottom line is be smart. And use the knowledge you have gained in all forms over the years, Snowest, mountain experience, books, etc.
Ride safe.
Thunder
