Sicamous avalanche

[flying pig]

I hate reading these things, but I know that every time I do it increases my chances of coming home after riding more each time I do read about someone else who doesn't get that privilege. Really feal for his girlfriend and child, really sad that they're now left on their own.
I still feel like the manufacturers could do something to help if they had a half a spine. There has to be a way that they could minimise the chance of being sued over selling a beacon with every new sled. I know too many guys who buy too big a sled too early (I know I'm one of them). Maybe they could offer the dealerships some sort of insentive to sell avy gear at cost whenever a new mountain specific sled is purchased? Maybe they could sponsor an avy gear company to sell gear at a discount to riders who purchase new sleds. Could they cut their ties by giving avy gear companies a donation? I don't know the legal system at all, but there has to be something someone can do. I understand that it is to big of sleds that is getting a lot of people into trouble. Maybe there should be a graduated system put into place? Make the 800+ sleds only available to riders who have previously purchased a say 600 or smaller cc mountain specific sled. Didn't they do that with sno-x specific sleds in the past?
I've seen too many people who just don't care too. I've said things to many people about it before too and its always the same reply, who cares, it won't happen to me, stop worrying....etc.
There's a difference between nieve and stupid, but it gets hazzy sometimes. I personally wear all the safety gear I can at all times, I don't touch a sled or motocross bike without about 5k worth of gear on. For me I've already learned my lesson the hard way, I've already done teh life support deal once and it was definately enough (I already had the same mentality at the time too, wore all my gear and still almost died, in second gear, on my MXer). I wonder how many trauma deaths caused by avy's could be avoided if the victim had been wearing gear to protect vital body parts? Head and neck, torso. Been thinking about how to make a leatte brace fit between my helmet and chest protector but let my jacket and ABS bag fit over it. Too many riders out there wear garbage helmets too, you get what you pay for with safety gear too.

Just thought I'd share what I've been thinking about in regards to all the deaths out there this year, really sad that so many haven't lived to see and care for their families or spend any more awesome days in the mountains with good friends.

RIP guys and help to watch over us and remind us of what we all have at stake. See you all on the other side!

 

[Norona]

All these avalanche incidents this year have been tragic. It is important to remember one thing, that they could have all been prevented!

I have only been sledding for 4 years but have spent my life as a sponsored athlete and have spent a lot of time in the backcountry. Sled manufactures like ski/snowboard manufactures and snowshoe manufactures should not be held accountable or obliged to included said safety gear for the backcountry.

It is up to us to be responsible for for ourselves and the people we travel with. i have done many avalanche clinics and put them on as well and it is the best thing that anyone using the backcountry can do to improve their own and their friends safety net in the backcountry where there is always the chance of an avalanche. Life is about choices and controlling those choices by others is not the answer. Education is!

When I started sledding I looked on this site and received a huge amount of information from all the amazing people and now i try and help others with things i have gone through. This site is the education process which really does work.

Unfortunately there will always be people who think they know more than they do, take chances and not wear the associated gear. Unfortunately these people pay with their lives and cause a huge amount of grief within the community and their loved ones who have to carry on without their loved ones.

You would have to live on another planet right now to not know that side hill on big hills, highmarking or riding without the gear is not a smart thing to be doing these days.

I spend over 100 days in the backcountry every year and I still know I do not know everything. I am amazed that in the last month with all that has happened i still see guys side hilling big hills, highmarking on the last bit of fresh snow between areas that have already slid. To me this is complete ignorance.

It is not the sled size, or anything else. it is just that some people still think they can do what they want without getting the knowledge and go where ever they please at anytime. This is the human element! Everyone who has been caught in an avalanche knows they are in avalanche terrain, knows the possibility of being caught is real and that they can die as a result so these are all choices we have to deal with. Knowledge is power.

1: Everyone should take an avalanche level 1 skills course. They are not expensive. Do it with your riding group in the area you sled and the guide will give you tons of great information. You will learn a ton and about the area you ride in.

2: Buy good avalanche equipment and practice with it. There is NO good excuse for not wearing a beacon and wearing a pack with a probe and shovel and other safety equipment.

3: Watch the avalanche forecast everyday, even on days you do not ride to keep yourself reminded of the dangers and the ever changing conditions.

4: Educate others in your group and don't ride with yahoos who think this won't happen to them. They will soon realize there is no one who wants to ride with them and change their ways.

5: One at a time on any hill should always be your group atitude ot hill climbing or side hilling. If sledders just stuck to this one rule half of all avy deaths could have been prevented. If your buddy is stuck on a big hill the best thing you can do is park your sled in an area where the run out of a slide will not get you or with it pointed away from the hill and still running while you watch him dig and pull his sled around on his own. Going up to help endangers both your lives.

6: Remember sledding is supposed to be an activity we all love and something we all want to do for the rest of our lives. Not something that makes others think we are crazy lunatics who know nothing and are leaving things up to chance. Please set a good example for all the younger guys and new people to our sport and the media who is now watching for the next bad example.

This post is not meant to say people deserve what they get. Please to anyone who has lost a love one due to an avalanche, myself and everyone in the sledding community wishes that it would have never happened. However for these amazing people who we have already lost, their deaths will be in vain if we do not listen and learn and get better education and arm ourselves with the best knowledge so that this happens less frequent. Have fun, but be smart and use your head when out in the backcountry...

 

[306mafia]

it doesn't matter how many deaths, close calls, or available education is out there. ignorance or stupidity will always prevail. unnecessary and avoidable deaths from avalanches will keep happening. its tragic, but get used to it.

 

[Flange]

he was down 5-6 feet and his leg was caught under the sled. we had to probe search about 2 acres and he could have been anywhere. we had to dig a 20' round, 7' deep hole to recover him.

How many guys were digging and how long did it take them to dig a hole that size?

Would you have done anything different during the search? Sometimes I wonder whether or not I'll remember all my avalanche training. Any advice for the rest of us in case we are called upon to help someday?

 

[priest lake rmk]

Good post Flange. I would also like to know.

 

[beer.killer]

All these avalanche incidents this year have been tragic. It is important to remember one thing, that they could have all been prevented!
who do you think you are god? stuff happens you don't control life and death

 

[gusto]

I do not usually chime in ,but have to get my 2 bits in..When you ride in Ontario to Brunswick most people do not need to wear a wear a beacon, it is simply not needed . That being said , the training should start where it is warranted. We in B.C. need to know to know about Avalanche safety, the more that is tought, the more is learned....It should be taught in schools because it is a fact of life in the mountains. Everybody that comes to visit the steep and deep should have a obligation to learn for there own safety and there peers..That being said, there is always peeps that do not live between the boundaries of the masses........ Just a tip watch the switchbacks and grade to get to the meadows you might have been going through Avvy areas to get there...Watch the trails too!!!... Thanks for listening ....Gusto

 

[stalefish_132]

How many guys were digging and how long did it take them to dig a hole that size?

Would you have done anything different during the search? Sometimes I wonder whether or not I'll remember all my avalanche training. Any advice for the rest of us in case we are called upon to help someday?

i would say probably 15 - 20 of us were alternating digging, it was a bit of a panic even tho it was far to late.

when i got there they were just organizing a probe line and started close to the last sighting, we started going down hill. to me i would have maybe started at the bottom and worked up. even though where he was was gone over 2-3 times before we found him we should have maybe had a bit more tighter of a probing line, like probe tighter before advancing forward. i have very little avy experince and learned alot yesterday but given the circumstances i think everyone up there did an awesome job up there even after 3 hours of probing.

and yes everyone should take it upon themselfs to take a simple avy course, i'm one of them. not just for you but for every other rider on the hill.

some mistakes were made that day but please guys dont call any of these guys idiots or w/e. i'm surehis buddies feel bad enough as it is. its easy to beak over the internet but put your feet in thier boots and see what your perspective is.

 

[Norona]

All these avalanche incidents this year have been tragic. It is important to remember one thing, that they could have all been prevented!
who do you think you are god? stuff happens you don't control life and death

No I do not think I am god, but each person decides at the beginning of the day where they go, what hills they ride and where they stop for lunch.

You are right stuff happens everyday and I do not control life or death however we have to own up to our responsibility of being in avalanche terrain. Making smart choices is the key. Riding on big hills right now, not wearing beacons, gong up to help a buddy who is stuck(more than one on a hill) are all mistakes. Unless people learn from these mistake they will be made over and over.

Please do not mistake my comments as saying these guys deserve what they got. Nothing could be further from the truth. No one deserves to die doing what they love. So for that reason alone you should be preaching that no matter how much we all know we need to keep being reminded how important it is to have better information, brush up skills and improve our awareness. To all the people in these situations who helped, you are all hero's.

 

[cobbycat]

How many guys were digging and how long did it take them to dig a hole that size?

Would you have done anything different during the search? Sometimes I wonder whether or not I'll remember all my avalanche training. Any advice for the rest of us in case we are called upon to help someday?

only advice is SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE CHARGE IMMEDIATLY. i feel that I didn't take it soon enough. if your rescue party isn't organized the search isn't efficient. and don't give up!! personally I was not going to stop until we found him, couldn't stand thinking about his parrents, or about leaving a brother on the mountain.

RIP BROTHER MATT

 

[cobbycat]

i would say probably 15 - 20 of us were alternating digging, it was a bit of a panic even tho it was far to late.

when i got there they were just organizing a probe line and started close to the last sighting, we started going down hill. to me i would have maybe started at the bottom and worked up. even though where he was was gone over 2-3 times before we found him we should have maybe had a bit more tighter of a probing line, like probe tighter before advancing forward. i have very little avy experince and learned alot yesterday but given the circumstances i think everyone up there did an awesome job up there even after 3 hours of probing.

and yes everyone should take it upon themselfs to take a simple avy course, i'm one of them. not just for you but for every other rider on the hill.

some mistakes were made that day but please guys dont call any of these guys idiots or w/e. i'm surehis buddies feel bad enough as it is. its easy to beak over the internet but put your feet in thier boots and see what your perspective is.

I just took his buddies dragon 700 back to him last night. was a tough tour!!
the last thing he needs right now is to be hacked on for his actions or anything else, as he is a sledding brother and he needs support from the rest of us brothers. trust me, he knows what happened more than all of us.
personally I gave him a big hug and told him if he needs anything to call me and I would be there! brothers are brothers no mater what!!

 

[Zachcreek]

[/COLOR]

I just took his buddies dragon 700 back to him last night. was a tough tour!!
the last thing he needs right now is to be hacked on for his actions or anything else, as he is a sledding brother and he needs support from the rest of us brothers. trust me, he knows what happened more than all of us.
personally I gave him a big hug and told him if he needs anything to call me and I would be there! brothers are brothers no mater what!!

It's easy to be the Monday morning quarterback behind a keyboard. Unless you are on the field, you have no idea what the situation is or what went down. Conversation is good, debriefing or whatever you want to call it. I have been on that hill many times, somebody that was not there always has a delightful insight on what should have been done.

Recovery Team, all of you on the hill did all that you could possibly do. All on that site did. None of those people were asked to help, they just did. These burial sites bring out the best in people. Every trouble that you have in the world is washed away and the focus is on a fellow human being. Their family, friends and the tragic loss of life. Especially when you were laughing just a few minutes ago with your firend(s) If anybody on this site gives any of the recovery group a hard time because of the decisions make, they have their heads up their azz. If something happened to me, I hope people like you guys are there.

 

[cobbycat]

It's easy to be the Monday morning quarterback behind a keyboard. Unless you are on the field, you have no idea what the situation is or what went down. Conversation is good, debriefing or whatever you want to call it. I have been on that hill many times, somebody that was not there always has a delightful insight on what should have been done.

Recovery Team, all of you on the hill did all that you could possibly do. All on that site did. None of those people were asked to help, they just did. These burial sites bring out the best in people. Every trouble that you have in the world is washed away and the focus is on a fellow human being. Their family, friends and the tragic loss of life. Especially when you were laughing just a few minutes ago with your firend(s) If anybody on this site gives any of the recovery group a hard time because of the decisions make, they have their heads up their azz. If something happened to me, I hope people like you guys are there.

thanks for the words brother. i have talked with many of the rescue/recovery team and everyone is asking the same qestion, "could I have done more?".
and I don't know how to answer this question because I am asking it too!

again I would like to thank everyone who was on the mountain helping out a brother, who many didn't even know. many busted their azzes for 3-4 hours probing and digging for someone they didn't know, and it is this brotherhood that keeps us strong. we have the responsibility to keep this brotherhood strong. sledders as a family can overcome almost everything and if we want to keep our sport, our passion, alive ,we as a brotherhood have to stand together. if this means stopping brothers from climbing a certain hill because it is dangeruos, DO IT. anyone who has brothers knows this can be difficult, but TRY. I love hillclimbing but restrain myself in times of avy danger. my group makes every decision as a group, and everyone in the group honors the decission! this is the way it has to be for us or somebody WILL NOT COME HOME someday! that is unacceptible! please be safe brothers!!!

 

[Zachcreek]

thanks for the words brother. i have talked with many of the rescue/recovery team and everyone is asking the same qestion, "could I have done more?".
and I don't know how to answer this question because I am asking it too!
again I would like to thank everyone who was on the mountain helping out a brother, who many didn't even know. many busted their azzes for 3-4 hours probing and digging for someone they didn't know, and it is this brotherhood that keeps us strong. we have the responsibility to keep this brotherhood strong. sledders as a family can overcome almost everything and if we want to keep our sport, our passion, alive ,we as a brotherhood have to stand together. if this means stopping brothers from climbing a certain hill because it is dangeruos, DO IT. anyone who has brothers knows this can be difficult, but TRY. I love hillclimbing but restrain myself in times of avy danger. my group makes every decision as a group, and everyone in the group honors the decission! this is the way it has to be for us or somebody WILL NOT COME HOME someday! that is unacceptible! please be safe brothers!!!

Not at the time, after debriefing you can look at the situation and only move forward with your experience. There is no going back, all involved can only learn from the experience. You guys did all that could given the situation. Anything different would more than likely have the same outcome. Quicker organization, someone being the IC etc. is not a snap of the finger. Unless you do this for a living, foreign life situations promote confusion and disorientation. Don't second guess yourselves, learn from this. If this ever happens again, your experience will be invaluable.

 

[Sled Idaho]

...snip...

PS. Remember when replacing batteries, ALKALINE Only in most brands, Lithium etc voids warranty and most brands dont want you using lithiums. (Just a reminder )

Good information there. It's been a while since I read the manual and did not remember seeing that.

 

[Flange]

only advice is SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE CHARGE IMMEDIATLY. i feel that I didn't take it soon enough. if your rescue party isn't organized the search isn't efficient. and don't give up!! personally I was not going to stop until we found him, couldn't stand thinking about his parrents, or about leaving a brother on the mountain.

RIP BROTHER MATT

Sounds like you did everything you could and then some. Don't let anyone tell you any different. I can only hope that there are guys like you around if my group ever needs help.

 

[EZmoney]

I applaud the recovery team for their efforts and action. You guys are heroes that put a end to this tragic accident.I do encourage people on the hill when ridding to take the avalanche course.The last time i was in the course the instructor was the reel deal that the rcmp would call if the recovery was not successful by guys like us.His course in the class room was very graphic and hit home. It really made me think. You boys witnessed that, i hope i never do. You guys had a job to do and did it. I would buy ya a round of beer if i met you all. These guys were young.Its a bad deal and mistakes were made.But we would be lying if we said we never made mistakes sledding.I know ive made mistakes over all the years .Just got lucky i guess nothing happen to me or my friends. We need to educate each other best we can when on the hill.To the other boys that were up there if your reading this, i feel for ya hang in there .

 

[cobbycat]

Not at the time, after debriefing you can look at the situation and only move forward with your experience. There is no going back, all involved can only learn from the experience. You guys did all that could given the situation. Anything different would more than likely have the same outcome. Quicker organization, someone being the IC etc. is not a snap of the finger. Unless you do this for a living, foreign life situations promote confusion and disorientation. Don't second guess yourselves, learn from this. If this ever happens again, your experience will be invaluable.

Sounds like you did everything you could and then some. Don't let anyone tell you any different. I can only hope that there are guys like you around if my group ever needs help.

I applaud the recovery team for their efforts and action. You guys are heroes that put a end to this tragic accident.I do encourage people on the hill when ridding to take the avalanche course.The last time i was in the course the instructor was the reel deal that the rcmp would call if the recovery was not successful by guys like us.His course in the class room was very graphic and hit home. It really made me think. You boys witnessed that, i hope i never do. You guys had a job to do and did it. I would buy ya a round of beer if i met you all. These guys were young.Its a bad deal and mistakes were made.But we would be lying if we said we never made mistakes sledding.I know ive made mistakes over all the years .Just got lucky i guess nothing happen to me or my friends. We need to educate each other best we can when on the hill.To the other boys that were up there if your reading this, i feel for ya hang in there .

thanks for the words brothers, but it feels more like I had a job to do and I failed. I didn't think that this experience would hit me so hard but it hit me like a freight train today. I am VERY passionate about sledding(ask my wife). I'm still going to ride. I'm going to continue to ride smart and I'm giong to try to educate others when I see the need. I plead all brothers and sisters of snowest to do the same. I NEVER WANT TO DO THAT AGAIN, but if a brother or sister is down I will be in there like a dirty shirt just like I know every brother or sister would be there for me if I was in trouble. be safe. cheers

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

I am gonna put in my .02 here guys and gals...avy awareness is everyones responsibility...every one should have a beacon,probe and shovel on their person in the mountains...first so that if something bad happens there is a chance your riding partners can save you right then as well as anyone within the area..second so that those who do come to help dont needlessly put their life at any more risk then they have to.(hrs or days to probe for you)..but more then anything I think our only hope is for those of us who do have avy experience to make sure everyone in our group has both the knowledge and the tools..I also think when you see someone in an unsafe avy situation it is your job to at least stop and inform them of the risk that they not only put themselves but all on the mountain into...if they choose not to listen..there is not much you can do..but if enough of us do it sooner or later peeps will listen and be safer.....

 

[On a Doo]

How many guys were digging and how long did it take them to dig a hole that size?

Would you have done anything different during the search? Sometimes I wonder whether or not I'll remember all my avalanche training. Any advice for the rest of us in case we are called upon to help someday?

It seemed like a long time, but probably around 15mins (not sure tho), lots of guys shovelling fast and switching off, probably 10 guys in shovelling at a time(no more room for more). My probe hit the sled hood, it was about 4 feet down, guys started shovelling right away and a couple guys to my left hit other parts of the sled, they yelled it was the sled and lots of guys shovelled. The guy who was in charge told a few of us to keep probing around the sled for the guy and told the second probe line to keep probing(THIS WAS A GOOD CALL).
It took the guys a couple mins to get to the sled, shortly after another guy at the rear area of the sled hit a possible on the sledder, people shovelled fast. there were guys shovelling the inner area and outer, as we were told to shovel the outer area as well. The guys didn't take too long to get to the sledders head, but it took a bit more to get him out.

I don't have avy training and am not sure if there was anything that could have been done different, but from what I saw the people up there were doing their best, I was shown what to do right away by others up there, so they were very eager to help and get me going as fast as possible.

In future I will educate myself on use of my equipment and try to get avy training.