Funny they state that 92% was against the parking lot but fail to mention that the first time this came up there was tons of support for it and a huge win for the sledders..... only to be shelved and reopened now
S.r.s.c.
- Thread starter jokerman
- Start date
OCD,
I Understand your frustration with not being able to make the meetings. As of right now we don't have a way to setup a conference type call or a web meeting. I will make sure we discuss it tomorrow!
Matt159
We'll be working out the details at this weeks meeting! Will keep you posted, and will have a email going out soon!
Everyone,
Meeting 7:00 pm Thursday Feb 18th, in the building beside Maverick Motor Sports in West Laramie. And No the club is not theirs, they just let us use the building as a meeting place!
Thanks
Dan
I Understand your frustration with not being able to make the meetings. As of right now we don't have a way to setup a conference type call or a web meeting. I will make sure we discuss it tomorrow!
Matt159
We'll be working out the details at this weeks meeting! Will keep you posted, and will have a email going out soon!
Everyone,
Meeting 7:00 pm Thursday Feb 18th, in the building beside Maverick Motor Sports in West Laramie. And No the club is not theirs, they just let us use the building as a meeting place!
Thanks
Dan
Has anyone looked at the Medicine Bow Road Analysis report on the medicine bow national forest site???? There is tons of good stuff in this that contradicts all the stuff this group is asserting
Is this it?
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/mbr/projects/roads/adobepdf/medbow/mbnf_rds_analysis_final.pdf
Found it on this page
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/mbr/projects/roads/index.shtml
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/mbr/projects/roads/adobepdf/medbow/mbnf_rds_analysis_final.pdf
Found it on this page
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/mbr/projects/roads/index.shtml
Thanks TMK50. The top link is the document I am referring to. Sorry about that .... brain going faster than typing.
That plan has all kinds of wonderful quotes like "we expect to have to develop the area to address access issues." and "road system found insufficient for future management" and 61% of snowy range usage is around State hwy130. Sorry no links to the pages, my draft letter is at home and I am at work right now.
Also the "scenic byway" definition is very helpful to the parking lot cause. Those opposing the parking lot seem to love pointing out Hwy130 is a scenic byway implying that it is a wilderness designation or something similar. That could not be further from the truth.
According to the forest service a "scenic byway" is designed to "support and enhance rural community economic development" and "Meet the growing demand of driving for pleasure as a significant recreation use" . These quotes are on page 5 of this doc. http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/byways.pdf
I think the "scenic byway" designation is a horse we should be riding, not those opposed to the parking lot. I don't think you can argue that the parking lot does anything but help meet the demand of driving for pleasure as a significant recreational use.
That plan has all kinds of wonderful quotes like "we expect to have to develop the area to address access issues." and "road system found insufficient for future management" and 61% of snowy range usage is around State hwy130. Sorry no links to the pages, my draft letter is at home and I am at work right now.
Also the "scenic byway" definition is very helpful to the parking lot cause. Those opposing the parking lot seem to love pointing out Hwy130 is a scenic byway implying that it is a wilderness designation or something similar. That could not be further from the truth.
According to the forest service a "scenic byway" is designed to "support and enhance rural community economic development" and "Meet the growing demand of driving for pleasure as a significant recreation use" . These quotes are on page 5 of this doc. http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/byways.pdf
I think the "scenic byway" designation is a horse we should be riding, not those opposed to the parking lot. I don't think you can argue that the parking lot does anything but help meet the demand of driving for pleasure as a significant recreational use.
I also found a draft environmental impact statement from the ski center west of centennial. http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/mbr/projects/specper/adobepdf/snowy_ski_area_ea_draft.pdf
It is pretty long and I did not get a chance to really look at that last night but a quick glance had some information about snow compaction and it was not that terrible.
Snow compaction is not an issue directly relating to the parking lot but it has been asserted the larger lot will increase snow compaction due to increased usage from sleds.
Not a direct study but some evidence to directly rebutt their naked and unsupported assertion of damage
It is pretty long and I did not get a chance to really look at that last night but a quick glance had some information about snow compaction and it was not that terrible.
Snow compaction is not an issue directly relating to the parking lot but it has been asserted the larger lot will increase snow compaction due to increased usage from sleds.
Not a direct study but some evidence to directly rebutt their naked and unsupported assertion of damage
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I just spoke to a member of the original steering comittee that was put together to devlop the original parking lot plan. It is my understanding that the University of Wyoming was VERY involved in the original parking lot plan. There is a little info about it on the U of W site but none of the links work. Does anyone know anyone at U of W that could help get some of this background info?
Also came up with this survey of Wyoming snowmobiling that showed the economic impact of snowmobiling in the area. Old info I know but still very helpful
http://agecon.uwyo.edu/EconDev/PubStorage/WYOMING SNOWMOBILE EXECUTIVE.pdf
Also came up with this survey of Wyoming snowmobiling that showed the economic impact of snowmobiling in the area. Old info I know but still very helpful
http://agecon.uwyo.edu/EconDev/PubStorage/WYOMING SNOWMOBILE EXECUTIVE.pdf
NICE SCORE, PSYCHO..!!!
Real data in a real study=> Priceless!
Real data in a real study=> Priceless!
"In terms of total spending associated with snowmobiling, nonresidents, residents, and outfitter client were estimated to have spent a total of $234.3 million in Wyoming during the 2000-2001 season. Of this amount about 40 percent was from nonresidents, 40 percent was from residents, and nearly 20 percent was from outfitter clients. Based on 13 survey results regarding the reduction in snowmobiling days in Wyoming it is estimate that the banning of snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks could decrease snowmobile expenditures in Wyoming by up to $36.8 million dollars. Over one-half of this loss would be from reduced outfitter client expenditures, which are concentrated in northwest Wyoming. Decreases in nonresident expenditures represent about 35 percent of the loss and decreases in resident expenditures represent slightly more than 12 percent of the loss. To some extent, the loss of resident snowmobile expenditures may actually represent a shifting of this spending to other activities in the state.
Because nonresident and nonresident outfitter client spending represents new money to the Wyoming economy, it is appropriate to consider the economic impact of this spending on the state’s economy. An IMPLAN model of the Wyoming economy was used to estimate the economic impact of the $138.4 million of nonresident and nonresident outfitter client spending. It is estimated that this spending directly or secondarily supported over 3,800 jobs and generated over 50.2 million in labor income in the state. Based on survey results regarding the reduction in snowmobiling days in Wyoming it is estimate that the banning of snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks could result in a loss of up to 938 jobs and $11.8 million in labor income in the state.
Finally, snowmobiling is also a source of revenue for state and local governments in Wyoming. During the 2000-2001 season it is estimated that snowmobiling generated over $10.0 million in government revenue. About 70 percent of this revenue is from sale tax, with about one-quarter from gas tax revenue, and five percent from user fees. It is 14 estimated that the banning of snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks would decrease this government revenue by up to $1.3 million.
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Table 26. Summary of Economic Impact of Snowmobiling in Wyoming[/FONT]
Expenditures Daily/Person Annual
Trip (WY) Equip (WY)
Nonresident Expenditures $98.99 $329.94
Resident Expenditures $68.50 $2,306.13
Outfitter Client Expenditures $180.27 $64.11
Current With SMB Loss
Situation Ban From Ban
Nonresident Expenditures $97,594,577 $84,614,498 $12,980,079
Resident Expenditures $94,356,462 $89,850,766 $4,505,696
Outfitter Client Expenditures $42,357,571 $23,084,876 $19,272,695
Total Expenditures $234,308,610 $197,550,140 $36,758,470
Economic Impact
Number of Jobs 3,817 2,879 938
Labor Income $50,246,068 $38,446,073 $11,799,995
State and Local Government Revenue
Sales Tax Revenue $7,036,153 $6,140,755 $895,398
Gas Tax Revenue $2,463,123 $2,126,885 $336,238
Registration/Licensing Fees $540,088 $483,833 $56,255
Total Government Revenue $10,039,364 $8,751,474 $1,287,890
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS[/FONT]
Because nonresident and nonresident outfitter client spending represents new money to the Wyoming economy, it is appropriate to consider the economic impact of this spending on the state’s economy. An IMPLAN model of the Wyoming economy was used to estimate the economic impact of the $138.4 million of nonresident and nonresident outfitter client spending. It is estimated that this spending directly or secondarily supported over 3,800 jobs and generated over 50.2 million in labor income in the state. Based on survey results regarding the reduction in snowmobiling days in Wyoming it is estimate that the banning of snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks could result in a loss of up to 938 jobs and $11.8 million in labor income in the state.
Finally, snowmobiling is also a source of revenue for state and local governments in Wyoming. During the 2000-2001 season it is estimated that snowmobiling generated over $10.0 million in government revenue. About 70 percent of this revenue is from sale tax, with about one-quarter from gas tax revenue, and five percent from user fees. It is 14 estimated that the banning of snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks would decrease this government revenue by up to $1.3 million.
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Table 26. Summary of Economic Impact of Snowmobiling in Wyoming[/FONT]
Expenditures Daily/Person Annual
Trip (WY) Equip (WY)
Nonresident Expenditures $98.99 $329.94
Resident Expenditures $68.50 $2,306.13
Outfitter Client Expenditures $180.27 $64.11
Current With SMB Loss
Situation Ban From Ban
Nonresident Expenditures $97,594,577 $84,614,498 $12,980,079
Resident Expenditures $94,356,462 $89,850,766 $4,505,696
Outfitter Client Expenditures $42,357,571 $23,084,876 $19,272,695
Total Expenditures $234,308,610 $197,550,140 $36,758,470
Economic Impact
Number of Jobs 3,817 2,879 938
Labor Income $50,246,068 $38,446,073 $11,799,995
State and Local Government Revenue
Sales Tax Revenue $7,036,153 $6,140,755 $895,398
Gas Tax Revenue $2,463,123 $2,126,885 $336,238
Registration/Licensing Fees $540,088 $483,833 $56,255
Total Government Revenue $10,039,364 $8,751,474 $1,287,890
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS[/FONT]
Outfitter clients, residents, and nonresidents all have an important impact on Wyoming snowmobiling. Each user group has its own unique characteristics, yet there are many areas where the groups are similar. This report provided some basic comparison points between each user group so that the entire Wyoming snowmobiling picture could be painted. This report will hopefully be a springboard for further analysis to be used for future Wyoming State Trails Program decision-making. The report also indicates the economic importance of snowmobiling in Wyoming and the potential
negative economic effects of banning snowmobiling in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks."
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Psycho,
I came across that one as well. I knew it was out there just never have actually read it.
I think with it and a lot of the other points in the documents you have found we can make a pretty good pitch for our side!
Thanks for the research your doing! Keep up the good work!
Also take a look @ this: http://www.snowmobilewyoming.org/issues.htm
Puts a little light on the state associations position on the lot, and gives an idea of where the third location is!
I came across that one as well. I knew it was out there just never have actually read it.
I think with it and a lot of the other points in the documents you have found we can make a pretty good pitch for our side!
Thanks for the research your doing! Keep up the good work!
Also take a look @ this: http://www.snowmobilewyoming.org/issues.htm
Puts a little light on the state associations position on the lot, and gives an idea of where the third location is!
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got a little more for you.
The ASCA references a ton of studies on their site rebutting the "environmental damge" that snowmobiles do and directly addressing issues like snow compactions impact on plants and animals. http://www.snowmobilers.org/facts_sound.html
Also found a University of Wyoming Study of the Medicine Bow & Routt forests that really seemed to want to conclude that snow compaction killed plants & animals . Too bad they could not come to that conclusion after their study. The only thing they rely on as a basis for the theory that compaction kills plants & animals is a study from Australia (??!?!!?) http://www.uwyo.edu/wynddsupport/docs/Reports/WYNDDReports/U05KEI04WYUS.pdf
There is a bunch of us from the Blizzards club out of northern CO that are going to try and make your meeting tonight in laramie. Hopefully meet you there
The ASCA references a ton of studies on their site rebutting the "environmental damge" that snowmobiles do and directly addressing issues like snow compactions impact on plants and animals. http://www.snowmobilers.org/facts_sound.html
Also found a University of Wyoming Study of the Medicine Bow & Routt forests that really seemed to want to conclude that snow compaction killed plants & animals . Too bad they could not come to that conclusion after their study. The only thing they rely on as a basis for the theory that compaction kills plants & animals is a study from Australia (??!?!!?) http://www.uwyo.edu/wynddsupport/docs/Reports/WYNDDReports/U05KEI04WYUS.pdf
There is a bunch of us from the Blizzards club out of northern CO that are going to try and make your meeting tonight in laramie. Hopefully meet you there
It will be great to have you there!
It is the building next to Maverick Motor Sports.
Another Site with a ton of info: http://www.snowmobile.org/
It is the building next to Maverick Motor Sports.
Another Site with a ton of info: http://www.snowmobile.org/
We failed in our attempt to get to the meeting, left longmont at 5 and made the north side of Ft collins by 7 and traffic on 287 was doing 30 mph. The dusting of snow on the roads totally overwhelmed most vehicles and we would have gotten there about midnight. GGGGRRRRR!!!!
We meet the first thursday of every month so the next time we can get up there is the 3rd thursday meeting for next month. If you need anyone up there for a meeting let us know and we will get some buts in seats.
Until then I will just keep working on my letter to everyone.
We meet the first thursday of every month so the next time we can get up there is the 3rd thursday meeting for next month. If you need anyone up there for a meeting let us know and we will get some buts in seats.
Until then I will just keep working on my letter to everyone.
I was afraid the snow was going to cause you problems as well! Several of our Cheyenne members failed to make it over here as well.
We had a very productive and informative meeting. We had a member of the forest service attend and briefed us on their side of the story and how things are progressing.
The good news is the parking lot is by no means dead. Really everything comes down to location and how feasible the various locations are from a number of perspectives. The Forest Service is basically back to evaluating different locations and weather they will meet the need.
So hold on to your shorts everyone its going to be an interesting ride.
Please make a point to keep yourself informed on what is happening. We will have a voice in this thing we just need to get everyone on the same page. Visit www.srscwy.com and sign up for the newsletter and we will do our best to keep you informed from our perspective!
As for the newsletter, look for one next week!
We had a very productive and informative meeting. We had a member of the forest service attend and briefed us on their side of the story and how things are progressing.
The good news is the parking lot is by no means dead. Really everything comes down to location and how feasible the various locations are from a number of perspectives. The Forest Service is basically back to evaluating different locations and weather they will meet the need.
So hold on to your shorts everyone its going to be an interesting ride.
Please make a point to keep yourself informed on what is happening. We will have a voice in this thing we just need to get everyone on the same page. Visit www.srscwy.com and sign up for the newsletter and we will do our best to keep you informed from our perspective!
As for the newsletter, look for one next week!
I received a reply from an email to the WYDOT:
Dear Mr. McAndrews,
I received your message for reply. While WYDOT shares with the US Forest Service a commitment to create a safe environment for motorists, in this instance the proposal for the parking lot is not a WYDOT project. It belongs to the Forest Service.
A contact for them in Laramie is:
Mary Sanderson
Recreation Planner
US Forest Service
Mary's email is: msanderson@fs.fed.us
Thank you very much.
Ross Doman
WYDOT District One
Laramie
Dear Mr. McAndrews,
I received your message for reply. While WYDOT shares with the US Forest Service a commitment to create a safe environment for motorists, in this instance the proposal for the parking lot is not a WYDOT project. It belongs to the Forest Service.
A contact for them in Laramie is:
Mary Sanderson
Recreation Planner
US Forest Service
Mary's email is: msanderson@fs.fed.us
Thank you very much.
Ross Doman
WYDOT District One
Laramie
Would have to agree with him on that one.
In fact is has very little to do with most of the organizations that BCA is aiming at in their campaign.
The county commissioners have little say as to what happens on forest service land. Yes it may be in Albany county but the Feds trump them when it comes to a decision! Guess they could have opinions one way or another, but the final say is with the District Ranger Office.
As for the tourism organizations, I guess they could express their opinions just like any one else. But my guess is the snowmobiles bring in way more money that the guys on sticks.
WyDot only has control over their right of way (where we park now) once your out of that right of way, it is all forest service at that point.
In fact is has very little to do with most of the organizations that BCA is aiming at in their campaign.
The county commissioners have little say as to what happens on forest service land. Yes it may be in Albany county but the Feds trump them when it comes to a decision! Guess they could have opinions one way or another, but the final say is with the District Ranger Office.
As for the tourism organizations, I guess they could express their opinions just like any one else. But my guess is the snowmobiles bring in way more money that the guys on sticks.
WyDot only has control over their right of way (where we park now) once your out of that right of way, it is all forest service at that point.
Here is some information- See Snowmobile Study
http://wyotrails.state.wy.us/Research/index.asp
Also I saw a booklet froma club member that was from the American Council of Snowmobile Associations- that disputes many lies about snowmobiling.
The snow compaction is a farse- besides we are talking about a parking lot!! that is plowed for petes sake!!!!Skiiers have more compaction with those skiis than snowmobiles!
WOW in 2000-2001 snowmobiling contributed nearly a quarter of a BILLION dollars to the Wyoming economy. Wonder what that number was for 2008-2009?
With 10% increases each year it would be over half a BILLION dollars. $500,000,000
Skiers & snowshoers? $18.27 roughly
With 10% increases each year it would be over half a BILLION dollars. $500,000,000
Skiers & snowshoers? $18.27 roughly
That's like a full percent or two of Wyoming GDP !
Mary from the USFS reply:
Thank you for taking the time to let us know of your concerns regarding the snowmobile parking lot proposal for the Snowy Range. At this time, we are going to re-evaluate potential locations before moving forward with any proposal. As we look for potential parking locations, we will be looking for a parking arrangement that is 1) safe, 2) sustainable for natural resources, 3) economically sustainable and 4) minimizes social impacts.
We will include your name on the e-mail mailing list to include in our next formal scoping process.
Thank you and continue to respect and enjoy your National Forest
Mary Sanderson
Recreation Planner
Laramie Ranger District
Medicine Bow-Routt National Forest
Laramie, WY
307-745-2363
msanderson@fs.fed.us
“It’s never too late to have a happy childhood.” unknown
I read number 4, 'minimize social impacts', as keeping sledders & non-motorized apart as much as possible.
Thank you for taking the time to let us know of your concerns regarding the snowmobile parking lot proposal for the Snowy Range. At this time, we are going to re-evaluate potential locations before moving forward with any proposal. As we look for potential parking locations, we will be looking for a parking arrangement that is 1) safe, 2) sustainable for natural resources, 3) economically sustainable and 4) minimizes social impacts.
We will include your name on the e-mail mailing list to include in our next formal scoping process.
Thank you and continue to respect and enjoy your National Forest
Mary Sanderson
Recreation Planner
Laramie Ranger District
Medicine Bow-Routt National Forest
Laramie, WY
307-745-2363
msanderson@fs.fed.us
“It’s never too late to have a happy childhood.” unknown
I read number 4, 'minimize social impacts', as keeping sledders & non-motorized apart as much as possible.
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