Power to Weight Ratio: Four Stoke vs. Two Stroke

[Suprx125]

Another thing to consider also, what if the EPA decides to crack down on emissions on sleds? They have done it in just about everything else including jet skis. Its really only a matter of time. When that day comes, and the OEM's have to switch to 4 strokes, we will be comparing apples to apples. And guess who will already have been in the game? Just some food for thought. Better to get some experience on a heavier sled now! Lol

 

[christopher]

Engine wise? Yes.

The whole package now assembled in TRF is the real question.

Agreed.
But I suspect we will KNOW for certain in pretty short order this season.

 

[christopher]

Another thing to consider also, what if the EPA decides to crack down on emissions on sleds? They have done it in just about everything else including jet skis. Its really only a matter of time. When that day comes, and the OEM's have to switch to 4 strokes, we will be comparing apples to apples. And guess who will already have been in the game? Just some food for thought. Better to get some experience on a heavier sled now! Lol

True enough, but you have to give credit where credit is due.
The new 2 stroke sleds are VERY clean machines.
The manufacturers are clearly anticipating tighter more stringent rules and constantly adapting their engines to be ready to meet those challenges.

 

[mountainhorse]

Some food for thought.

It's not just the power-to-weight ratio of the sled.

It is how that weight works with the power.

I've been out on the mountain with Troy Johnson of LCC and watched him do some insane things on his Turbo Apex.... and on a T-Nytro... all in light/deep Wyo Pow.

I'm much less of an accomplished rider than him and smaller to boot.

I've been blessed to be able to ride some really light T-Nytros with all the goodies on them. Definitely an addictive thing, all that power coming on in an "evil" way
as the sled simply makes great power and will flat-out climb anything.

On the day I was on a 190 hp MCX Turbo Nitro , courtesy of a good friend, nice fresh pow blue-bird day in the low 20's... I had a blast.

Some of the things that I did notice about the sled from my perspective of a lighter/shorter rider.

The sled was harder for me to adjust to terrain when on the throttle compared to a 2S sled.. IMO, due to the higher gyroscopic effects of more rotating
weight of the 3 cyl engine.

I needed to be on the throttle more to stay on top of the snow. This with having to put more "body english" into the sled, to get it to move where I wanted it to,
left me more tired at the end of the day compared to my 2S sled... Good for the sleep, bad for my old body the next day.

When I was stuck... I was really stuck and could feel that extra weight of the sled, I needed help more than I normally would...Good thing I wrench on my friends
sleds to make up for the extra effort and camaraderie they show me on the hill.

Will this be different on the Viper... I'd say confidently... to a certain degree as this is a more refined chassis... but with a very similar power plant and rotating mass.

I've watched the Yamaha promo video that Ryan sat in on... and they make a convincing point about the accumulated snow on the sled... But when buried,
they all seem to have the same amount (FULL) of snow in the buried skid and all over the sled. When moving...well a diff story. IMO, the sled hanging
from the tree only shows part of the story for accumulation... But boy does the Poo hold some snow, I give you that.

I agree that we are coming to a day where the 4S sleds will be the norm... and as these sleds move in that direction for all, we'll see lighter sleds with
some amazing power plants... Heck...just look at how fast the 4S thumpers took over the MX world...I think we'll see that in the 4S sleds soon.

All this said... plenty of my friends have ordered new Vipers... only one of them with NO turbo. So it will be great to ride the latest evolution of the 4S Mtn. Sled !!

pow Pow PoW POW....Wheres that sweet pow??







.

 

[Suprx125]

True enough, but you have to give credit where credit is due.
The new 2 stroke sleds are VERY clean machines.
The manufacturers are clearly anticipating tighter more stringent rules and constantly adapting their engines to be ready to meet those challenges.

Agreed. Hopefully they see that and will leave them be.

 

[Suprx125]

Some food for thought.

It's not just the power-to-weight ratio of the sled.

It is how that weight works with the power.

I've been out on the mountain with Troy Johnson of LCC and watched him do some insane things on his Turbo Apex.... and on a T-Nytro... all in light/deep Wyo Pow.

I'm much less of an accomplished rider than him and smaller to boot.

I've been blessed to be able to ride some really light T-Nytros with all the goodies on them. Definitely an addictive thing, all that power coming on in an "evil" way
as the sled simply makes great power and will flat-out climb anything.

On the day I was on a 190 hp MCX Turbo Nitro , courtesy of a good friend, nice fresh pow blue-bird day in the low 20's... I had a blast.

Some of the things that I did notice about the sled from my perspective of a lighter/shorter rider.

The sled was harder for me to adjust to terrain when on the throttle compared to a 2S sled.. IMO, due to the higher gyroscopic effects of more rotating
weight of the 3 cyl engine.

I needed to be on the throttle more to stay on top of the snow. This with having to put more "body english" into the sled, to get it to move where I wanted it to,
left me more tired at the end of the day compared to my 2S sled... Good for the sleep, bad for my old body the next day.

When I was stuck... I was really stuck and could feel that extra weight of the sled, I needed help more than I normally would...Good thing I wrench on my friends
sleds to make up for the extra effort and camaraderie they show me on the hill.

I've watched the Yamaha promo video that Ryan sat in on... and they make a convincing point about the accumulated snow on the sled... But when buried,
they all seem to have the same amount (FULL) of snow in the buried skid and all over the sled. When moving...well a diff story. IMO, the sled hanging
from the tree only shows part of the story for accumulation... But boy does the Poo hold some snow, I give you that.

I agree that we are coming to a day where the 4S sleds will be the norm... and as these sleds move in that direction for all, we'll see lighter sleds with
some amazing power plants... Heck...just look at how fast the 4S thumpers took over the MX world...I think we'll see that in the 4S sleds soon.

All this said... plenty of my friends have ordered new Vipers... only one of them with NO turbo. So it will be great to ride the latest evolution of the 4S Mtn. Sled !!

pow Pow PoW POW....Wheres that sweet pow??

.

You make some very good points here. Totally forgot about the MX world.

 

[cacsrx1]

Some food for thought.

It's not just the power-to-weight ratio of the sled.

It is how that weight works with the power.

I've been out on the mountain with Troy Johnson of LCC and watched him do some insane things on his Turbo Apex.... and on a T-Nytro... all in light/deep Wyo Pow.

I'm much less of an accomplished rider than him and smaller to boot.

I've been blessed to be able to ride some really light T-Nytros with all the goodies on them. Definitely an addictive thing, all that power coming on in an "evil" way
as the sled simply makes great power and will flat-out climb anything.

On the day I was on a 190 hp MCX Turbo Nitro , courtesy of a good friend, nice fresh pow blue-bird day in the low 20's... I had a blast.

Some of the things that I did notice about the sled from my perspective of a lighter/shorter rider.

The sled was harder for me to adjust to terrain when on the throttle compared to a 2S sled.. IMO, due to the higher gyroscopic effects of more rotating
weight of the 3 cyl engine.

I needed to be on the throttle more to stay on top of the snow. This with having to put more "body english" into the sled, to get it to move where I wanted it to,
left me more tired at the end of the day compared to my 2S sled... Good for the sleep, bad for my old body the next day.

When I was stuck... I was really stuck and could feel that extra weight of the sled, I needed help more than I normally would...Good thing I wrench on my friends
sleds to make up for the extra effort and camaraderie they show me on the hill.

I've watched the Yamaha promo video that Ryan sat in on... and they make a convincing point about the accumulated snow on the sled... But when buried,
they all seem to have the same amount (FULL) of snow in the buried skid and all over the sled. When moving...well a diff story. IMO, the sled hanging
from the tree only shows part of the story for accumulation... But boy does the Poo hold some snow, I give you that.

I agree that we are coming to a day where the 4S sleds will be the norm... and as these sleds move in that direction for all, we'll see lighter sleds with
some amazing power plants... Heck...just look at how fast the 4S thumpers took over the MX world...I think we'll see that in the 4S sleds soon.

All this said... plenty of my friends have ordered new Vipers... only one of them with NO turbo. So it will be great to ride the latest evolution of the 4S Mtn. Sled !!

pow Pow PoW POW....Wheres that sweet pow??







.

I think it will be hard for the 4s sleds to follow what the MX bikes have done. The 4s weight penalty grows as more cylinders are added, and if you start with a smaller cc 4s twin it will require boost. The smaller the cc the more on the edge the state of tune needs to be. Everybody has seen a 450 MX bike eat its pups, and its not pretty or cheap.

 

[noob]

I think it will be hard for the 4s sleds to follow what the MX bikes have done. The 4s weight penalty grows as more cylinders are added, and if you start with a smaller cc 4s twin it will require boost. The smaller the cc the more on the edge the state of tune needs to be. Everybody has seen a 450 MX bike eat its pups, and its not pretty or cheap.

sad thing is the tree huggers and peckers who write the rules don't care and push this clean air thing harder and harder. they don't care what it weighs or what it costs us. this argument over 4s vs 2s don't mean nothing cuz we don't have a say. The sleds prob arent' too far off of where the dirt bikes have gone whether we like it or not.

Like diesel trucks, we have to add more def fluid and burn more diesel so that the trucks are cleaner. One of my clients is a chain of case ag tractor dealer. He said that normally a tractor is 3 to 1 diesel to def. For next year the government is going to mandate that it is 1-1 for def to diesel. Going to cost ag guys(not sure if it's for trucks as well) 3 times more to run def fluid so that they burn cleaner. just what I heard from buddy, getting screwed by the tree huggers and government again.

 

[TRUEBLUEMAX]

True enough, but you have to give credit where credit is due.
The new 2 stroke sleds are VERY clean machines.
The manufacturers are clearly anticipating tighter more stringent rules and constantly adapting their engines to be ready to meet those challenges.

While the Skidoo with it's direct injection is pretty good for a 2s, the emissions created by the Polaris is much higher. The Cat is even worse. The Cat is only getting away with its emissions because of how much better the four strokes are in the lineup whose credits offset the 800.

 

[christopher]

While the Skidoo with it's direct injection is pretty good for a 2s, the emissions created by the Polaris is much higher. The Cat is even worse. The Cat is only getting away with its emissions because of how much better the four strokes are in the lineup whose credits offset the 800.

The next MAJOR tightening of emissions is going to hit in 2017.
The pressure on the 2 Smokes is getting harder and harder.
Eventually the 2 Smokes ARE going to be a thing of the past.
The only question is WHEN....

 

[turbo800]

The next MAJOR tightening of emissions is going to hit in 2017.
The pressure on the 2 Smokes is getting harder and harder.
Eventually the 2 Smokes ARE going to be a thing of the past.
The only question is WHEN....

I have to question this graph. Nearly 100 automobiles on the road, compared to 1 two stroke snowmobile???

 

[TRUEBLUEMAX]

I have to question this graph. Nearly 100 automobiles on the road, compared to 1 two stroke snowmobile???

They have come a long way with emissions control on vehicles. Not only is it emissions a vehicle is producing but it is also how quickly they come to life after a cold start.

I ran a new Mustang on an emissions machine just to see what it would do. Within 30 seconds of a cold start the machine was reading straight zeros across the board.

I think current four stroke emissions may have to improve to get them where they will need to be in the future.

I have said it before, but if snowmobiles do go the four stroke way Yamaha's "head start" in four stroke sleds will mean nothing if they continue to sit on their hands as they have in the recent past.

 

[christopher]

The next thing you will see on Four Strokes are Catalytic Converters. That will SERIOUSLY lower the emissions even further...

 

[christopher]

I have to question this graph. Nearly 100 automobiles on the road, compared to 1 two stroke snowmobile???

Would have to do some looking to get you dates on all of those graphs.
Lifted all of them off the net this morning

 

[BigFish BC]

the funniest part of this whole thing is we keep pushing for better emission,but there is no control over 3/4 of the rest of the world.

 

[TRUEBLUEMAX]

the funniest part of this whole thing is we keep pushing for better emission,but there is no control over 3/4 of the rest of the world.

I would be willing to bet however that 3/4 of the vehicles out there are in emissions controlled countries. Sleds are probably a higher ratio I would bet.

 

[sidehil]

You guys should deal with refrigerant, I'm a HVAC guy buy trade, it's tracked by my CO, and the EPA. I've had visit from the EPA and they thought we had our **** together, I really just want to ride and have a beer at the rescue tube with BCbigfish ))))))) the state side riders don't know what is the ****)

 

[turbo800]

Back to the original topic.......If you break it down to bare bones basics, the 2 stroke wins every time. Now if the thread topic was PTW ratio vs Reliability, the 4 stroke generally takes the cake!

I seen a Vector online that had some 70,000 miles on it!!!

 

[christopher]

Back to the original topic.......If you break it down to bare bones basics, the 2 stroke wins every time. Now if the thread topic was PTW ratio vs Reliability, the 4 stroke generally takes the cake!

I seen a Vector online that had some 70,000 miles on it!!!

But thats just it.
If you read the thread you will see that they DON'T win every time.

 

[icerider600]

Can I ask a Stupid question Why cant we just ride what we want to ride and not worry about trying to explain that our sled is better than his sled????? I ride what I want to ride and I don't care what anybody else on this whole forum thinks about it and bashing me or my sled saying yours is better is Never going to change my mind!!! Sorry I'm not in the 8th grade anymore!! Just my 2 cents