Poor Choice Results In More Avalanche Death

[cobbycat]

Whats more important, to worry about the feelings of those who were hurt by an Avy death or to get the message out in a tough love sorta way to those of us who are still riding the hills. I got no problem with the tough avy comments people need em.

I fully agree bro. being a rescuer at the sicamous/enderby slide was my worst day of snowmobiling in my sledding history, and as for feelings, ranks right up there with my worst days ever!! my group was not in the slide but we were the first ones there. I definitely have some hardcore feelings from it that I will deal with as I slice through a powder filled meadow. it is just not safe to climb right now. so if it's tough love the let's have it.


if you don't have a beacon on in the mountains you are already dead, you and your family just don't know it yet!

 

[Uller]

Knowledge is KEY!

People (& cobbycat):

I have read each and every post concerning avys the last few weeks (and for the last couple of years for that matter) and there is one thing that really gets me about the majority of the posts. It has to do with comments concerning safety gear. People talk about having beacons, shovels, probes, and now ABS packs like they are required to (and will) keep you safe in the BC.

THIS IS TOTAL BS! 33% of the deaths involved someone wearing a beacon. (Utah Avy Center Stat)

Quote from Utah Avy Center "Since about half of totally buried people die, even with beacons, it's important to avoid being buried. This is the reason avalanche air bags work very well. But it's also important to have an escape route pre-planned so that if you are caught, you tend to be caught in a part of the avalanche that is more likely to leave you on or near the surface, for instance, near the crown or flanks of an avalanche."

Now before you say (or think) "but, yeah, they mention that air bags work well", please go back and read the first sentence. Secondly, I can't seem to find any stats right now but, a large majority of deaths are due to trauma sustained while being in the Avy.

The previously mentioned Avy gear is not a solution or cure all for bad choices which are typically due to a lack of education or major mental lapse.

Knowledge is ESSENTIAL to avoid being taken by an Avy. Period.

In my younger years I skied a bunch. As I got better at riding powder I found myself looking at the areas that were beyond the rope line (areas where the ski patrol didn't perform any avy control). I really wanted to go skiing there however, knew that an avy is a very dangerous thing. During that time I was in college and didn't have any extra cash to buy avy gear or pay to attend avy couses to gain knowledge about safe travel practices. Well, I was able to convince the parents and grandparents that I really needed the gear. and I met a real cool guy who was a former ski patrol and current operations manager for a cat ski operation. I attended multiple courses he tought which included on snow days digging pits, anylizing slide paths and so on. It wasn't until I had received all that education (over the course of two winters) that I finally started to go into the BC. AND I only went there with others who had the same/similar knowledge.

Sorry I'm rambling....

Point is: You can buy all the gear in the world, it won't really matter if you don't know how to avoid avys in the first place.

if you don't have a beacon on in the mountains they won't find you until spring if you do, they might find you the next day. If you haven't taken a hands on avy course which gives you the knowledge and tools to make wise choices (and actually practice what they preach) you are already dead, you and your family just don't know it yet!

 

[Zachcreek]

People (& cobbycat):

I have read each and every post concerning avys the last few weeks (and for the last couple of years for that matter) and there is one thing that really gets me about the majority of the posts. It has to do with comments concerning safety gear. People talk about having beacons, shovels, probes, and now ABS packs like they are required to (and will) keep you safe in the BC.
THIS IS TOTAL BS! 33% of the deaths involved someone wearing a beacon. (Utah Avy Center Stat)

Quote from Utah Avy Center "Since about half of totally buried people die, even with beacons, it's important to avoid being buried. This is the reason avalanche air bags work very well. But it's also important to have an escape route pre-planned so that if you are caught, you tend to be caught in a part of the avalanche that is more likely to leave you on or near the surface, for instance, near the crown or flanks of an avalanche."

Now before you say (or think) "but, yeah, they mention that air bags work well", please go back and read the first sentence. Secondly, I can't seem to find any stats right now but, a large majority of deaths are due to trauma sustained while being in the Avy.

The previously mentioned Avy gear is not a solution or cure all for bad choices which are typically due to a lack of education or major mental lapse.

Knowledge is ESSENTIAL to avoid being taken by an Avy. Period.

In my younger years I skied a bunch. As I got better at riding powder I found myself looking at the areas that were beyond the rope line (areas where the ski patrol didn't perform any avy control). I really wanted to go skiing there however, knew that an avy is a very dangerous thing. During that time I was in college and didn't have any extra cash to buy avy gear or pay to attend avy couses to gain knowledge about safe travel practices. Well, I was able to convince the parents and grandparents that I really needed the gear. and I met a real cool guy who was a former ski patrol and current operations manager for a cat ski operation. I attended multiple courses he tought which included on snow days digging pits, anylizing slide paths and so on. It wasn't until I had received all that education (over the course of two winters) that I finally started to go into the BC. AND I only went there with others who had the same/similar knowledge.

Sorry I'm rambling....

Point is: You can buy all the gear in the world, it won't really matter if you don't know how to avoid avys in the first place.

It is not safety gear as I see it, it is survival gear. It will not keep you safe from an avalanche, but it may help you survive if buried.

If a human causes an avalance, someone messed up. Natural slides happen all the time and if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, then you screwed up. Runout zones are just that.

Without the survial gear needed, if you get buried, you will most likely die. If you have a beacon and nobody else does, you will most likely die.

If you are in the Mtns and play, you will be affected by the power of nature at some point. Choose where you go with the understanding that if you go where it isnt safe, you may die.

I am amazed at the reasoning for not having a beacon. Its only worth .25 Cents, to expensive, I am a dumbazz etc.


Guess you just cant talk stupidity out of people.

OT -stir the pot. Pizz's people off, but the discussions always happen from that.
Just try to have a little compassion, sh1t head.

 

[brahm]

..wow 2 more in bc, of which 6 were caught, bc is taking a hit this year..13 deaths in 1 province compared to the same amount for the entire us.

 

[Zachcreek]

I keep reading "its a bad year" ...How's about somerthing like "it's a bad choice"

Another family has to deal with the trama of death related to a bad choice.

OT

Crap, somebody must be paintin the bridge, cause OT is out. But, have to agree with OT. Make your choices. Leafy greens or McDonalds. No body out lived thenselves.

 

[Uller]

It is not safety gear as I see it, it is survival gear. It will not keep you safe from an avalanche, but it may help you survive if buried.

If a human causes an avalance, someone messed up. Natural slides happen all the time and if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, then you screwed up. Runout zones are just that.

Without the survial gear needed, if you get buried, you will most likely die. If you have a beacon and nobody else does, you will most likely die.

Zach, I think you're missing my point (or I didn't convey it too well).

It is safety gear, just like your helmet.

Example: Riding a motorcycle on the roads: Your helmet won't help you not crash but, it might keep your brain intact and functioning afterward but it isn't 100% certain. You have to use your brain and ride in a way that you won't crash to avoid needing to use your helmet in the first place. That is the only way to 100% ensure that you won't have brain damage. You don't hop on your bike and ride 100 MPH saying that I am safe because I am wearing a helmet. However, there is still a chance that you will crash due to incompetent drivers. In that situation, your helmet probably won't matter due to the type of accident it is.

Your brain is what will keep you safe in avy terrain (stop you from crashing). Yes, your beacon will give you a much greater chance of staying alive but it really isn't that certain (remember that "33% of the avy deaths involve someone wearing a beacon"). The large climactic avy can still come down and get you (just like the incompetent driver) but in that situation your safety gear (air bags included) probably won't help you due to the extreme destructive forces associated with that type of slide.

None of the safety items mentioned will stop an avy.

Just think a little longer about this stat, "33% of the avy deaths involve someone wearing a beacon"

Utah Avy Center Section on Myths "Spit to see which way is up"
It doesn't matter which way is up. You can't dig yourself out of avalanche debris. It's like you are buried in concrete. Your friends must dig you out.

I put this quote in here cause it mentions that your friends must dig you out. Your beacon doesn't do it. Your friends knowledge and skill with a transceiver is the only thing that might save you. Your beacon doesn't allow you to survive for any longer than the oxygen around your body will allow. It is only a safety tool.

 

[Red-eye]

Every snowmobile related avy......................IS A BLACK EYE TO THE BACKCOUNTRY SNOWMOBILE COMMUNITY

If you can't be a good steward of the backcountry stay home since you very well might be to dangerous and don't even know it because your blinded by the thrill and the false sense of safety gear you own.


OT

8 sparwood boys died. 2 groups one in a area that never slides this time of year. They were riding in willows in the drainage before. When they got in the area that they died, they saw a small slide afar and decided to go out. One of them made a turn to go out and got stuck. Then a small slide got him and the others went to his aid. The other group came alond 45 min. later. Herd cries for help and decided to help. Who would of thought that it would slide again, never mind 3 more times.

PEOPLE LIKE THIS GIVE SNOWMOBILERS A GOOD NAME, ITS CALLED BRAVE !


OT YOU ARE AN IDIOT ! Its easy to sit behind a computer and mouth off when you don't know the facts!

 

[Zachcreek]

Uller agree with you totally. Semantics as far as safety and survival. I also think of my helmet as survival gear.

Good conversations, Sad truth is that generally people do not survive avalanches. But, a beacon will increase your chances of survival. Using your head will substantially increase the odds.

Lessons learned from BC - All slopes are suspect. <30 degree slope are not safe. Bad things happen to good people.

 

[cobbycat]

People (& cobbycat):

I have read each and every post concerning avys the last few weeks (and for the last couple of years for that matter) and there is one thing that really gets me about the majority of the posts. It has to do with comments concerning safety gear. People talk about having beacons, shovels, probes, and now ABS packs like they are required to (and will) keep you safe in the BC.

THIS IS TOTAL BS! 33% of the deaths involved someone wearing a beacon. (Utah Avy Center Stat)

Quote from Utah Avy Center "Since about half of totally buried people die, even with beacons, it's important to avoid being buried. This is the reason avalanche air bags work very well. But it's also important to have an escape route pre-planned so that if you are caught, you tend to be caught in a part of the avalanche that is more likely to leave you on or near the surface, for instance, near the crown or flanks of an avalanche."

Now before you say (or think) "but, yeah, they mention that air bags work well", please go back and read the first sentence. Secondly, I can't seem to find any stats right now but, a large majority of deaths are due to trauma sustained while being in the Avy.

The previously mentioned Avy gear is not a solution or cure all for bad choices which are typically due to a lack of education or major mental lapse.

Knowledge is ESSENTIAL to avoid being taken by an Avy. Period.

In my younger years I skied a bunch. As I got better at riding powder I found myself looking at the areas that were beyond the rope line (areas where the ski patrol didn't perform any avy control). I really wanted to go skiing there however, knew that an avy is a very dangerous thing. During that time I was in college and didn't have any extra cash to buy avy gear or pay to attend avy couses to gain knowledge about safe travel practices. Well, I was able to convince the parents and grandparents that I really needed the gear. and I met a real cool guy who was a former ski patrol and current operations manager for a cat ski operation. I attended multiple courses he tought which included on snow days digging pits, anylizing slide paths and so on. It wasn't until I had received all that education (over the course of two winters) that I finally started to go into the BC. AND I only went there with others who had the same/similar knowledge.

Sorry I'm rambling....

Point is: You can buy all the gear in the world, it won't really matter if you don't know how to avoid avys in the first place.

bottom line:
he had no beacon!
if he had been wearing one, judging from where I entered the slide to where we dug him up, I believe that, with the training I have, I could have found him in about 2 min. we got there about 5 min after burrial. my crew of 5 was still fresh so I estimate we could have had him dug out in 10 min.

the probe search took 3 1/2 hours!!! now don't you think he would have had a better chance with the 17 minutes? I am NOT saying he would be alive but better chance. and let me tell you, we rescuers were in danger for the 3 1/2 hours too, and I would have rather searched under the cornice hovering above us for the 17 minutes, as opposed to the 3 1/2 hours that I did.

my point is this: safty gear helps but you must know how to use it!!

70 odd sledders were on the mountain that day.
when I rode to the cabin afterwards I looked at all the cimbs that are usually all beat up, and there was no tracks on any of them and I personally think that everyone was riding safe. this is no easy feat for 70 of us ego stuffed, "can't tell me nothin", addarenaline hunting snowmobilers, and I salute all who were on the mountain that day. you all made me proud.


on the mountain, if you are not educated, if you don't have a beacon, GET OFF THE MOUNTAIN STUPID!!!!

 

[tudizzle]

I was there with catmanwiens on that horrible day and i fully agree. absolutely beside myself about the guys that had to sit out because they didn't have a beacon. at last head count, 32 rescuers, 27 sitting out!!!! NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!

bottom line:


I salute all who were on the mountain that day. you all made me proud.

if you don't have a beacon, GET OFF THE MOUNTAIN STUPID!!!!

???

 

[cobbycat]

???

what's your question?

 

[tudizzle]

if you gotta ask

 

[cobbycat]

if you gotta ask

the reason I was proud that day is even the ones that didn't have beacons were riding smart, every hill except the one the slide was on was untouched at the end of the day. 70 sledding brothers past up every hill!!!

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

8 sparwood boys died. 2 groups one in a area that never slides this time of year. They were riding in willows in the drainage before. When they got in the area that they died, they saw a small slide afar and decided to go out. One of them made a turn to go out and got stuck. Then a small slide got him and the others went to his aid. The other group came alond 45 min. later. Herd cries for help and decided to help. Who would of thought that it would slide again, never mind 3 more times.

PEOPLE LIKE THIS GIVE SNOWMOBILERS A GOOD NAME, ITS CALLED BRAVE !


OT YOU ARE AN IDIOT ! Its easy to sit behind a computer and mouth off when you don't know the facts!

I feel deeply for the loss to your town. I can't imagine how I would handle losing so many good friends in one instance.

That said...

"one in a area that never slides this time of year"

That is the first mistake.
Assuming that because an area has not slid before that it won't slide now is...Ignorant and goes against everything I've been taught in Avy training.

"they saw a small slide afar and decided to go out"
Mistake # 2, They Saw the danger was present but ignored the danger signs.
VERY poor descision in anyone's book

"Who would of thought that it would slide again"
Before I got formal Avy training I too would have assumed that it would not have slid again but I know better now.
If there's a load and a hill it will continue to slide until the load is gone.

"PEOPLE LIKE THIS GIVE SNOWMOBILERS A GOOD NAME, ITS CALLED BRAVE"
They were very brave for putting themselves in harms way to rescue their friends, That's very true and it does paint the picture that we are a caring bunch and would do anything to help one another but even according to your telling of the story, the cold, hard indesputable fact is this...

Many mistakes were made and now 8 good young men have left us.
It is painful even to those who never met these guys because we are all one big extended family.
Please don't blame OT for causing all this discussion to happen.
He understands loss very well after recently losing someone very close to him.
He honestly cares and this is his way or trying to help.
How many other good young men will learn from it and be saved.

 

[Red-eye]

The truth is it is hard to describe in text what happened, you need to know the story first hand before judgement is made. The mistakes made were as easy as deciding to go left or right on any givin day. They were in a meadow and we don't have any snow. It was a freak thing like all being on the road all at the same time and a chain reaction car accident happening. The only thing that everyone forgets is that these boys stayed to help, and the next car got them all.

 

[SLEDIOT]

We all know inside 99% of the time that its about poor choices. But out of love and consideration for the mourners we keep it to ourselves. How do you get in someones face who just lost their lifelong buddy, father, brother, son, nephew or spouse and shake a finger at them and mention poor choices? I myself am a complete azzhole most of the time but even I cant seem to muster the courage to say this to someone. I just hand out a hug and a smile. We all know about choices most seem to forget consequences.RIP to all the ones we recently lost...............

 

[hatchers]

i farted

 

[m8magicandmystery]

People (& cobbycat):

I have read each and every post concerning avys the last few weeks (and for the last couple of years for that matter) and there is one thing that really gets me about the majority of the posts. It has to do with comments concerning safety gear. People talk about having beacons, shovels, probes, and now ABS packs like they are required to (and will) keep you safe in the BC.

THIS IS TOTAL BS! 33% of the deaths involved someone wearing a beacon. (Utah Avy Center Stat)

Quote from Utah Avy Center "Since about half of totally buried people die, even with beacons, it's important to avoid being buried. This is the reason avalanche air bags work very well. But it's also important to have an escape route pre-planned so that if you are caught, you tend to be caught in a part of the avalanche that is more likely to leave you on or near the surface, for instance, near the crown or flanks of an avalanche."

Now before you say (or think) "but, yeah, they mention that air bags work well", please go back and read the first sentence. Secondly, I can't seem to find any stats right now but, a large majority of deaths are due to trauma sustained while being in the Avy.

The previously mentioned Avy gear is not a solution or cure all for bad choices which are typically due to a lack of education or major mental lapse.

Knowledge is ESSENTIAL to avoid being taken by an Avy. Period.

In my younger years I skied a bunch. As I got better at riding powder I found myself looking at the areas that were beyond the rope line (areas where the ski patrol didn't perform any avy control). I really wanted to go skiing there however, knew that an avy is a very dangerous thing. During that time I was in college and didn't have any extra cash to buy avy gear or pay to attend avy couses to gain knowledge about safe travel practices. Well, I was able to convince the parents and grandparents that I really needed the gear. and I met a real cool guy who was a former ski patrol and current operations manager for a cat ski operation. I attended multiple courses he tought which included on snow days digging pits, anylizing slide paths and so on. It wasn't until I had received all that education (over the course of two winters) that I finally started to go into the BC. AND I only went there with others who had the same/similar knowledge.

Sorry I'm rambling....

Point is: You can buy all the gear in the world, it won't really matter if you don't know how to avoid avys in the first place.

On the ABS website they have a section with very detailed avy reports, this is the summary.



100 known accidents (with ABS) involving 119 Persons (with ABS)
106 Persons with fully inflated Air Bag - 3 persons techn. Failure - 2 persons with improper handling (empty cartridge) – 1 person did not carry handle – 7 persons did not pull rip cord/handle


13 Persons without or with only partially filled Air Bags: 3 persons uninjured, 6 persons silghtly injured, 4 persons dead


106 People with inflated Air Bag: 53 Persons not burried 42 Persons partially burried
11 Persons completely burried (head) but with Air Bags visible on the surface


1 Person with ABS dead (due to second avalanche) and with Air Bags not visible on the surface

 

[huntinggr81]

On the ABS website they have a section with very detailed avy reports, this is the summary.



100 known accidents (with ABS) involving 119 Persons (with ABS)
106 Persons with fully inflated Air Bag - 3 persons techn. Failure - 2 persons with improper handling (empty cartridge) – 1 person did not carry handle – 7 persons did not pull rip cord/handle


13 Persons without or with only partially filled Air Bags: 3 persons uninjured, 6 persons silghtly injured, 4 persons dead


106 People with inflated Air Bag: 53 Persons not burried 42 Persons partially burried
11 Persons completely burried (head) but with Air Bags visible on the surface


1 Person with ABS dead (due to second avalanche) and with Air Bags not visible on the surface

One of the guys who was in the Avy last Sunday near Chetwynd, BC in the Hassler area deployed his ABS pack. He stayed on top & was not buried at all. One of the others in his group was not so lucky, and didn't make it out. This is just more proof that ABS packs do work.

 

[Uller]

m8magicandmystery & huntinggr81,

I am not saying that an air bag isn't a useful safety device. It is very true that you are much more likely to survive an avy if you are on the surface or only partially buried which is what the air bags are supposed to do for the wearer.

Those are very promising stats provided by ABS.

I have read too many times on here about people not having any avy gear and/or training regarding avys and safe BC travel. They then mention having an eye opening experience and at that point go out and buy $1600 worth of avy gear and think that they are now covered and good to go regarding avys.

In my opinion, that is a very dangerous assumption on their part for not only them but the people that they ride with or are riding around.

I believe that there are safe travel practices that can be followed which will allow you to ride, in almost all conditions, without being involved in an avy. The only way to learn those practices is through education, both in a classroom and on the snow.

I used this analogy while discussing this topic with a friend a few days ago.

Riding in the BC is like playing Russian Roulet.

If you ride without an education or avy gear you are taking a very big chance.

If you ride without an education and with avy gear it is like you are wearing a bullit proof vest. You are somewhat protected but they might be using cop killers and in that case you are toast.

If you ride with an education and with avy gear you not only have a bullit proof vest on but you also know which cylinder the bullit is in.

Don't know about you but, I would really like to have the odds of survival similar to the last senario.