Polaris primary questions.............

[kirk]

Hi guys and gals,

I have a question about a clutching dilema with my 2005 600 switchback. I have been hitting a mph wall of around 80-85 mph on frozen lakes, fast trails and want to improve on this. I would also like to lower rpm's from 7000 at 60 mph to hopefully gain some longevity.

So what I have as far as clutching,

PRIMARY # 1 is a brand new 800 primary with original heel clicker weights (approx 62 grams) and gold spring
(190-340)

58/42-36 helix with red/black spring (140-240)

i ALSO TRIED THIS clutch setup
10-60 weights black/green spring
(120-340)
56/42-36 helix with black/red spring (155-222)

with both setups, the primary wont shift all the way out. But they both max out around 8000-8300 rpms I am runnning a 2" track at sea level, with RMK gearing

thanks,
Kirk

 

[volcano buster]

What was your max speed with either clutch set up?

 

[kirk]

both clutch setups were around 80-85 mph max speed.

 

[kirk]

As I mentioned, and I guess I dont know what is considered ideal, but neither primary clutch would shift out fully. I used a marker to test, and I have about 3/4" at the top of the sheaves where the lines still look fresh

 

[850xp]

well if u got a 600 with 144X2 and rmk gearing your not gonna reach more than 85MPH its basically toped out depending on gears ur running,rmk gearing is not suppose to be top end low and mid end grunt,also what eleavation you running,

 

[kirk]

I am running at sea level to 1000 ft. I want to have one clutch setup for trail, and one for powder.

 

[muskamoot]

Take out the spring and make sure you can close the sheaves enough to have the belt ride all the way up in the clutch.

 

[kirk]

I already did that, and had the primary shimmed so it has .010 belt to sheave clearance.
I am waiting for a new tuning kit from heel clicker, to try and get more tip weight to see if that makes a difference. Currently total 72.2 grams with 7 grams built into the shoulder plus 3 additional added to the shoulder, thus approx. 62 grams of weight at full shift.............but it wont shift out all the way. I did notch the primary for the shoulders of the weights, so thats not the issue.

 

[muskamoot]

What is the breakaway tension on the secondary?Button or roller?

 

[kirk]

What is the breakaway tension on the secondary?Button or roller?

Care to explain breakaway tension? Is this the fish scale test? It is a roller secondary with the delrin bushings installed currently has red/black spring 140/240

 

[kirk]

heres a pic of the primary..............that mark is after 150 trail miles with some high speed power line running

 

[kirk]

another picture....you will notice two lines, one that s longer is after a primary spring change to a brand new one190/340.

 

[muskamoot]

Disclaimer:I'm a drag racer experienced with P85 clutches.It seems to me that you are running too heavy secondary spring weights,especially with the aggressive helix angles you list.The P85 is limited in the amount of force the 3 relatively light flyweights can generate.It sounds like you have hit the limit of your ability to upshift the secondary with the current spring. I'd try to get in the area of 16 lbs breakaway (fish scale) and into the 100 lb start rate on the spring to see if you can let that clutch shift up.I'd start with 10 58 weights and a Polaris blue primary spring.A wise monkey once told me to clutch light and let it eat,truck springs belong on trucks.

 

[kirk]

I hear you on the secondary side, actually ordered a different spring 140/200 not as light as what you are suggesting. Got my heel clicker tuning kit today, going to try more tip weight and set up a second primary the way you suggest. But the primary spring i have is blue/white i think it is 120/310.

Thanks for your help

Kirk

 

[kirk]

Besides the secondary spring change, will the helix angle affect shift out on the primary?
I have a different helix i can try, 62-46-46 er do you think this would work better than my 56-42-36 or 58-42-36 for fast trail and lake riding?

 

[muskamoot]

The higher the angle,the harder it is for the primary to shift up.FYI the older 800 triple storm used a straight 36 degree helix.That engine had a lot of torque and ran at 8100 rpm and used a P85 swinging about 62 grams of weight.I know rollers allow a bit more helix angle than buttons,but you are having problems shifting the primary out.You also have limited HP with a 600 motor and a 2" track.It's only going to shift up until the forces peter out.I know the equipment is different,but the theory is the same.

 

[kirk]

The higher the angle,the harder it is for the primary to shift up.FYI the older 800 triple storm used a straight 36 degree helix.That engine had a lot of torque and ran at 8100 rpm and used a P85 swinging about 62 grams of weight.I know rollers allow a bit more helix angle than buttons,but you are having problems shifting the primary out.You also have limited HP with a 600 motor and a 2" track.It's only going to shift up until the forces peter out.I know the equipment is different,but the theory is the same.

So if i am understanding this correctly............if my finish angle is currently 42 and I replace it with a helix finish angle 46 i should be lower rpms at same track speed until the secondary shifts all the way out? Assuming the spring isnt too stiff in the secondary.

You were right about the secondary spring being too stiff, it wasnt opening all the way. So when my new springs arrive i will put them in to test. How far should the team roller open? Should the belt ride on the inner hub? Took the secondary clutch apart and the wear marks are just over an inch from the inner hub.

 

[muskamoot]

It may be a big help to remove both the primary and secondary springs and install the clutches.Manually assure that the primary will close enough to place the belt all the way up the primary sheave and all the way down in the secondary.Sometimes with larger rated springs,you can get into coil bind on either clutch.The primary should close enough to run the belt all the way up,the secondary must allow the primary to do that,or you have hit a wall.As to the helix question,the helix isn't really controlling rpm's at all,the angle is making it harder or easier for the primary to upshift and downshift based on track speed and resistance.The helix is the last fine tuning piece after engine tuning, gearing and primary clutching.In the end,you may be better off returning to a button style Polaris secondary.

 

[kirk]

Thanks Muskamoot. I did dissassemble both clutches and install them without the springs, and the belt will allow full shift on both clutches. If anything the belt is a little long, but I assume this is OK as the secondary is not supposed to ride on the center hub. With everything assembled deflection is good, so I should be good there.
If I get my hands on a button style secondary, what is a good helix and spring for my combination? I have read guys like the r11 which is 45-36 progressive for mountain riding. I would also like to keep perc, so as far as I can tell my options from polaris are R8 or R11 that they used in the perc conversion kits..

 

[muskamoot]

R6 or R8 would be good to try.Silver spring with 12-14 lbs break.