Obama must read

[2001400ex]

OK, I'll bite.

• At what level are we considering "rich"?
  
  100,000 or 1,000,000 or 10,000,000
  
• Is that AGI or Gross Income?
  
• Will these increases have a sunset? Or would you accept that the additional tax increase for a given bracket be directed to only the principal on the national debt.

EX - you posted this earlier

When you cut taxes from the less wealthy, they spend it. When you cut from rich, they transfer it to other rich (buy homes, put it in stocks, whatever).

This is exactlyexactlyexactly why folks that are at the lower end of the spectrum economically will remain there. I'm not trying to go all Warren Buffet on you, but when people refuse to save, they will never get ahead.

Oh, they'll make more money, but the minute they get a raise its a new car/house/boat/carpet/etc. All the while using credit to bridge the inevitible gap that occurs should a hiccup happen to their check book. They'll get a COLA raise but will still overspend and pay a heck of a lot more than 3-5% for that borrowed money. I'm sorry, but even if you pile 5% more on the rich and 5% less on the "poor", the people I mentioned above still won't be able to make ends meet and save for a rainy day.

Moose, a lot of that is very true, people should save, people should not spend 10% more than their raise (and yes I am one of those idiots). But the problem is, free will. The government cannot tell people to save. They encourage it with IRAs and 401(k)s, but they cannot force it (well, okay, SS is forcing people to save, kind of). Personally, I spend like a mad man, but I also have a total of 19% of my check going to 401(k) between the company match and my personal contribution.

But, what the government can do is manipulate tax rates. All I say is to institue the 39.6% tax bracket back from the 35%. This is for people with a taxable income over $390,000 (or somewhere in that area). Keep in mind, that is taxable income, not total income, not AGI. Most people with that high of a taxable income have closer to a gross income over $500,000 and over. And Obama's simple fix to SS is what I have been saying Kerry should have said. The tax cuts out at $102,000. How about reinstate it at $250,000 a year? Now, we have a solvent program again.

 

[Wade]

What a great Idea, let's punish people for being successful. A person making $102,000 already contributes $12,648 a year, to the social security welfare system, of which they will probably never see a cent.

So, do you also believe that since your social security payment is calculated using your last salary, that these people should get too use their final salary. I guess that's why it's called social security tax, and not social security program. Because, a person might think their actually investing in their future retirement, not just having more money taken from them.

So lets tally it up, you propose 39.6% tax plus a 6.2% raise in social security taxes for the rich. We getting near the Communist country tax rate. Cool a nearly 10% tax raise on rich people, geeze why didn't we think of that before. While were at it, lets just impose a 100% tax on businesses. When they fold, the government can take them over. It works in Russia.

I suggest everyone start businesses that provide tax shelters, it's going to be a hot business if the socialist get the office.

 

[Wade]

Enough BS, good hard data why I won't vote for Obama.

Sierra Club Endorses Obama for President Joins United Steelworkers in Call for Clean Energy Future Sierra Club Endorsement

Al Gore Endorses Obama:
Al Gore Endorsement

Friends of the Earth Action Endorses Obama: Friends of the Earth Action

Communist Party USA Endorses Obama.
CPUSA

Fidel Castro, Hamas adviser Ahmed Yousef, Hugo Chavez. New Black Panther Party and Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan,
America's Foes

Kim Jong-Il

I don't think I need to prove Unions back him, or all the Hollywood actors.

 

[2001400ex]

Enough BS, good hard data why I won't vote for Obama.

Sierra Club Endorses Obama for President Joins United Steelworkers in Call for Clean Energy Future Sierra Club Endorsement

Al Gore Endorses Obama:
Al Gore Endorsement

Friends of the Earth Action Endorses Obama: Friends of the Earth Action

Communist Party USA Endorses Obama.
CPUSA

Fidel Castro, Hamas adviser Ahmed Yousef, Hugo Chavez. New Black Panther Party and Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan,
America's Foes

Kim Jong-Il

I don't think I need to prove Unions back him, or all the Hollywood actors.

Okay, on the Sierra Club, you got me. I know Obama is not a friend to riding and none of the Democrats are. But the rest of these are more right wing propaganda fear tactics. Obama cannot turn the country into a communist state.

If you are afraid of big government, then you should not have voted for one Republican the last 8 years. All they have done is create a much bigger government. Look how many new programs there are. They might not be social programs, but still turning things like airport security from free enterprise to a government program is what the Republicans did. Then they blame the Democrats for creating a big government.

Puhlease!!

 

[ruffryder]

What a great Idea, let's punish people for being successful. A person making $102,000 already contributes $12,648 a year, to the social security welfare system, of which they will probably never see a cent.

I think Mr. McCain debunks that statement quite well.... Most rich know the system, and know what is available. To think that they won't take money that they can.... well they are people not knights of the round table.

 

[Mooseknuckle]

Okay, on the Sierra Club, you got me. I know Obama is not a friend to riding and none of the Democrats are. But the rest of these are more right wing propaganda fear tactics. Obama cannot turn the country into a communist state.
If you are afraid of big government, then you should not have voted for one Republican the last 8 years. All they have done is create a much bigger government. Look how many new programs there are. They might not be social programs, but still turning things like airport security from free enterprise to a government program is what the Republicans did. Then they blame the Democrats for creating a big government.

Puhlease!!

I won't argue with you on big "G". However, as to commie - no, but to something between socialist and fascist - yes. GO back and look at what was going on during the FDR administration. What kinda of controls and policys that administration had?

 

[Wade]

The first three, Sierra Club, Friends, and Gore, are the ones I hate. I could care less what the rest think, just throw it in there for fun.

If you read the Commie site, they say he's not commie enough for them, just more socialist than McCain.

Obama will lean more socialist than McCain. He will push for redistribution of wealth.

As for rich people, I think all rich people should pay their taxes. But, I really hate it when the majority of people gang up against a minority population, and legislate highway robbery. How about we help the poor people by cutting congress's pay? How about we help the working poor, by fixing bridges rather than "stimulus checks". How about making it illegal to charge me (or my insurance) 3X for my hospital visit, because some liberal figured out a way to judicially force subsidized health care? How about giving responsible people more voice in government rather than a bunch of tree huggers, and bums who's vote can be bought with cigarettes?

Do you hear Obama, he's promising to buy votes? I'll give you someone else's money if you'll vote for me.

How about, I'll let you keep more of what you earned if you vote for me.

And yes, I'm sure that no Democrats voted for the airport security bill. Or, were they entranced by demonic powers of the mighty GW?

Next thing you know, Pelosi will be asking for offshore drilling. Wait what??? Pelosi
That's a dirty Republican lie, that won't work.

 

[TurboT]

Pelosi wants to flipflop now too...no way It's funny how the Dem party is blaming Bush for all the bad issues in America right now. No foreign attacks on our nation's soil since 2001! The Republican party wanted to drill in Alaska several years ago...no way! Wonder who ousted this idea The effect of drilling would devastate the caribou migration...WTF? It's funny how a large percentage of wildlife in the lower 48 are found feeding in the right of ways of our public transportation! Could this be because of higher nitrogen counts in reclaimed ground? Just the same as the pipelines that run through Alaska? Uh...flipflop from the Dems People with power who have no clue what they're talking about! Molloy reintroducing wolves after Ed Bangs tells Molloy the numbers are higher than sustaining a suitable wolf population? Import/export ratio plummets for the US...wonder who was the sellout here. Started in the early 90's along with our right to snowmobile getting revoked in what was supposed to be a beautiful park "for the people".

 

[2001400ex]

Here is the definition of socialism:
"Socialism refers to any of various economic and political concepts of state or collective (i.e. public) ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services, some of which have been developed into more or less highly articulated theories and/or praxis."

So tell me which Obama policy falls in the above definition. He is not for government health care like Hilary is, and we all know that will not pass anyways. Do I really need to add up all the new programs the last 8 years that do fall into the above definition?

For drilling, we need to use up the 68 million acres currently used and continue to develop alternative fuels. Why do the Republicans blast democrats for trying to develop alternative energy? Oil will not last forever!

For Yellowstone, the problem there is people were riding sleds off road, which has never been legal (well maybe back in the 50s). And beside, there is way better riding outside the park than in, which you should know Turbo T since you live in NW Wyoming.

For the attacks, I find it funny how war, or fear of war, brings people to voting for Repulicans. Look throughout history, the vast majority of years we are in war is when a Republican is president. Think about it!

 

[Wade]

Here is the definition of socialism:
"Socialism refers to any of various economic and political concepts of state or collective (i.e. public) ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services, some of which have been developed into more or less highly articulated theories and/or praxis."

So tell me which Obama policy falls in the above definition. He is not for government health care like Hilary is, and we all know that will not pass anyways. Do I really need to add up all the new programs the last 8 years that do fall into the above definition?

For drilling, we need to use up the 68 million acres currently used and continue to develop alternative fuels. Why do the Republicans blast democrats for trying to develop alternative energy? Oil will not last forever!

For Yellowstone, the problem there is people were riding sleds off road, which has never been legal (well maybe back in the 50s). And beside, there is way better riding outside the park than in, which you should know Turbo T since you live in NW Wyoming.

For the attacks, I find it funny how war, or fear of war, brings people to voting for Repulicans. Look throughout history, the vast majority of years we are in war is when a Republican is president. Think about it!

Cherry picked that definition I'll just stick to good old webster:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Which Obama policies: Humm, redistribution of wealth based on work not done. From Obama's website:

Obama's Plan to Cover Uninsured Americans: Obama will make available a new national health plan to all Americans, including the self-employed and small businesses, to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to members of Congress. The Obama plan will have the following features:

1. Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions.

Subsidies. Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.

Sounds like socialized medicine to me. Guaranteed eligibility (secret code for, even if you can't pay). And yes, almost nothing a Presidential candidate promises, can he actually deliver without congress's approval. The idea is great in a star trek world, but not in the real world. And, the only way it can be affordable is everyone is covered, so that the insurance company pays ONLY for work done, not an inflated cost recovery price to cover 2 other charity cases.

Drilling: Hummm, if they have 68 million acres that they don't use, take it back, and give them another 68 million acres where they do want it. If they refuse to use that, then you have caught them at a lie. Otherwise, you have not given proof that oil is there. Anyways, I thought this was Pelosi's idea. Old Drill Crazy Pelosi. I really fail to see what the harm is in letting the oil companies create jobs and drill for oil, if they want. It's obvious the American public does not accept the Dems rhetoric.

Yellowstone: You sound like a certain skier in Nevada I know, are you so full of it. I went on 5 multi-day trips, before the draconian policies that are in place now, I never once saw ANY snowmobile tracks off the paved road. I saw lots of skier tracks off the trail though. Hell, my mom rode snowmobiles around Yellowstone, and to this day can't figure out were they were hiding all the destruction snowmobiles caused.

War: In case of war - break glass. Republican's will make the hard decisions the peace nick dems can't. Cumbaya. Every see the South Park episode were the rednecks and the puzzies figure out they needed each other?

 

[2001400ex]

Now it makes sense. Given the other comments you have made, South Park does not seem like the logical place you have done your research!! Sorry, yes I had to go there.

But either way, if everyone had health care and it was the same price for everyone, which he is proposing, then that is great. That is not Hilary's plan of a system like Canada's.

For drilling, yeah, those are leases based on the fact they have oil there. Do the research on that.

For Yellowstone, yes I agree, snowmobiling does not damage the land. My only point is, the only thing that changed was you now have to be with a guide on a 4 stroke to get in. That is not so bad. I don't like road riding anyways. The only thing about the deal I did not like was saying the pollution was caused by sleds. It couldn't be the millions are cars a year, it must be those 800 sleds.

 

[Wade]

But either way, if everyone had health care and it was the same price for everyone, which he is proposing, then that is great. That is not Hilary's plan of a system like Canada's.

For drilling, yeah, those are leases based on the fact they have oil there. Do the research on that.

For Yellowstone, yes I agree, snowmobiling does not damage the land. My only point is, the only thing that changed was you now have to be with a guide on a 4 stroke to get in. That is not so bad. I don't like road riding anyways. The only thing about the deal I did not like was saying the pollution was caused by sleds. It couldn't be the millions are cars a year, it must be those 800 sleds.

Yes everyone will pay the same, only those under a certain income will have their's either fully or partially paid by the government. I estimate about 50% of the people will pay, the other 50% will be subsidized. Basically, welfare. But, at least we will be able to actually calculate how much money we spend on health care for the poor. Instead of it being a hidden number, as now.

No, all leases start as a lengthy exploration, no one knows if there is oil on all the land or not. And, you never actually know, until you drill a test hole. What do you think, the government has drill rigs, and tests the lease before the lease is made? So, of those 68 million acres of leases, How many of them are held up in an environmental legal challenge (greenies), how many are held up waiting for permits, how many are in the process of exploration, and how many are actively being tested and drilled right now, and how many are waiting for deep sea drill platforms to become available? I bet the answer is all of it, were known reserves are that are economically accessible. Besides this whole argument makes no sense. Why would oil companies pay the Federal Government to lease land if they are not using it? I would think the greenies would see this as a corporate financed wilderness area. I think what the oil companies are asking for is the easy stuff, so we can get a quicker influx of new oil production. It only takes a couple months to drill a land based well, and start pumping oil. Years for a deep sea well.
Read This About Oil

I don't like the new regulations in Yellowstone, and probably will never go back again. Just did it for friends and family. But, at least you can still ride in the park. Can you imagine how many pissed off people they would have, if they applied the same arguments to cars as they do to snowmobiles.

New stats for you:

Top 1% of wage earners pay 40% of taxes. Up from 19% in the 80s.
Top 5% of wage earners pay 60% of the taxes. Up from 37% in the 80s.
Top 10% pay 66%.
Top 50% pay 96.5%.

Does this really sound fair to you? Does this sound like the rich are paying more or less than they did in the 80s? Does it sound like 50% of Americans don't pay anything, and a lot probably get more back than they pay?
Ref

 

[cmantle1]

Pelosi wants to flipflop now too...no way It's funny how the Dem party is blaming Bush for all the bad issues in America right now. No foreign attacks on our nation's soil since 2001! .

WOWWWW, the richest country in the world with the most advanced millitary managed to stop a group of people with 1/4 as much technology or wealth from blowing up bombs on airplanes again.....AMAZING

 

[TurboT]

WOWWWW, the richest country in the world with the most advanced millitary managed to stop a group of people with 1/4 as much technology or wealth from blowing up bombs on airplanes again.....AMAZING

Yes, it is amazing. It's amazingly great that we live in a safer world now too. Where I don't have to worry as much about my friends and family getting blown up walking into a hospital or a subway station. Just stating a fact, that's all Next time we should just slap them on the wrist and tell them to quit being naughty? Your brothers and sisters were brutally murdered for trying to live a peaceful life. What, did you forget that the former president(Clinton) was potentially "handed" Obama 3 different times and did drop some bombs also!

 

[TurboT]

My point with Yellowstone is trying to show that our basic, fundamental rights were partially taken away from certain "higher" powers that never even bothered to provide correct data(lies) and only viewed snowmobiles as being destructive. What about the mountain bikes, cars-just like Wade said, touring coaches, motorcycles, etc? I snowmobiled in Yellowstone each year(multiple times), from the age of 5 to 22. I saw only one track off the trail in the Hebgen Flats area. Your point is valid 2001400ex! The problem is that "change" did happen. The Park is now reporting that the annual cost of keeping the East entrance open for winter use is $300,000. Wait and watch This will "change" also. There was no realistic reason for this to happen. Just typical political b.s. from DC. You guys are right, it is boring compared to the likes of western mountain riding. I'm only afraid that this is the first step in trying to eliminate sledding from our other freedom riding areas. They've already been trying for years. Thank god for Ed Klim and all of the snowmobilers who support our awesome sport. I'm not saying that Barrack Obama is a bad person, every person in this world has great qualities about he/she. I just have a strong gut feeling that more of our freedoms will disappear if certain people are elected in! I hope I am wrong

 

[cmantle1]

Yes, it is amazing. It's amazingly great that we live in a safer world now too. Where I don't have to worry as much about my friends and family getting blown up walking into a hospital or a subway station. Just stating a fact, that's all Next time we should just slap them on the wrist and tell them to quit being naughty? Your brothers and sisters were brutally murdered for trying to live a peaceful life. What, did you forget that the former president(Clinton) was potentially "handed" Obama 3 different times and did drop some bombs also!

first off, living in Wyoming, i dont think you have to worry about terrorist attacks in your town.

What Turbo, did you forget that Bush's oil company was linked directly to the Bin Laden family? That Osama's brother was a main investor of the company went it first started? hmmmmm Turbo wonder where he got some of his funding?

 

[Mooseknuckle]

For the attacks, I find it funny how war, or fear of war, brings people to voting for Repulicans. Look throughout history, the vast majority of years we are in war is when a Republican is president. Think about it!

Hold your war horses there cowboy. Let's look at some history.

WWI -(1914-1918) Woodrow Wilson Dem

WWII - (1939-1945) FDR & Truman Dem

Korea - (1950-1953) Truman Dem

Vietnam - Combat(1964-1975) LBJ Dem Nixon Rep

 

[winter brew]

Hold your war horses there cowboy. Let's look at some history.

WWI -(1914-1918) Woodrow Wilson Dem

WWII - (1939-1945) FDR & Truman Dem

Korea - (1950-1953) Truman Dem

Vietnam - Combat(1964-1975) LBJ Dem Nixon Rep

Kennedy??? Clinton???

 

[ruffryder]

Hold your war horses there cowboy. Let's look at some history.

WWI -(1914-1918) Woodrow Wilson Dem

WWII - (1939-1945) FDR & Truman Dem

Korea - (1950-1953) Truman Dem

Vietnam - Combat(1964-1975) LBJ Dem Nixon Rep

Based on that, I wonder why Dems are said to not have the backbone to protect the US?

 

[Mooseknuckle]

Ruffy,

Better yet, why are Republicans always labeled blood thirsty?


WB - I'll give you Kennedy if you like, but those were "advisors". Combat was apparently under LBJ. Now Clinton I think fired a rocket on somebody whenever he was in deep kimchee. "Monica who? KABOOM!!!!!(cuz I can't make that rocket sound with letters)

I'm reading a book on the first intelligence team into Afganistan after 9/11. Very interesting how the various dept.s argued over who should fight, how to dress, how not to tick-off the Pakistanis and how much frikken money that they used to buy the support of the old school Muhajideen(sp)

I'll ask this of Sldgy or anyone else that was politically aware in the early 70's. Is this "war" we're in now being ran like the last years of Vietnam?