Obama must read

[2001400ex]

Again, when people can't win with Obama, they refer to the negative campaign against him. And yes it is fact that Clinton paid off some bonds. Check this article out. How quickly we forget.

http://money.cnn.com/1999/06/28/economy/clinton/

Note one other thing about this article, it mentions both the Republicans AND the Democrats working together to create this. So, 7 years of Clinton, the two parties are working together. 7 years of Bush, and we are so far apart.

To me, the evidence is there to suggest that cutting taxes hurts the economy, and raising taxes on the rich helps it. If there is one person on here who makes over $250,000 a year, please speak up.

The thing on cutting taxes, I agree if we are cutting taxes because the government has too much money, then to cut from the rich. But if the intention is to spur the economy, you have to cut from the poor. Remember, all the tax cuts provided to the poor are also provided to the rich, on top of their tax cuts. And yes, I have a 6 figure income! (though no where near $250,000)

 

[ruffryder]

If there is one person on here who makes over $250,000 a year, please speak up.

I think there are quite a lot of people on here that make that and more......

I am in the 7 figures... though I count the two to the right of the decimal..

 

[XC700116]

Note one other thing about this article, it mentions both the Republicans AND the Democrats working together to create this. So, 7 years of Clinton, the two parties are working together. 7 years of Bush, and we are so far apart.

I'd try to keep everyone happy too if I was getting hummers from the interns

You know I always love it when someone mentions how great Clinton was and wants to bash Bush for every ailment of the country. I say

1. When it comes to speaking you could have put a retarded chimp up against W and beat him

2. After the first 4 years if he was so bad then how come he couldn't be beaten by the high and mighty Kerry/Edwards duo then?

And don't even start with the stolen election business.

The fact is that the Democratic party seems to dig for and even more liberal candidate every time they come to the polls. They are getting further and further away from the foundations of their party and if it wasn't for labor unions and the countless old folks that vote democrat because of the democratic party of old and not even considering looking at the republicans they wouldn't even stand a chance. I've seen and watched this many many times back home in northern MN where democrats are gods just cause they are democrats. but times are changing.

If your leanings are liberal and you like that and think it's good then by all means vote for him. But don't expect to find much support for it here.

Oh and from just about any liberal I come into contact with, I seem to hear the similar reference of:

"I am enlightened, educated, and well informed. Your a conservative? Well you poor uneducated, ill informed fool, let me show you the light."

Well I'm am plenty well educated and informed and there's many more where I came from.

What if those that were educating these great liberal minds were teaching theory as fact (global warming) and disguising socialism as caring?

 

[Wade]

The thing on cutting taxes, I agree if we are cutting taxes because the government has too much money, then to cut from the rich. But if the intention is to spur the economy, you have to cut from the poor. Remember, all the tax cuts provided to the poor are also provided to the rich, on top of their tax cuts. And yes, I have a 6 figure income! (though no where near $250,000)

If you make $157K a year you'd learn about a dirty little secret called AMT. You don't get every tax deduction that poor people get. That's why they call it the alternative "minimum" tax. They basically make basic deductions like mortgage interest, less than full.

Plus, your not eligible for Earned Income Credit if you make more than $37K.

And, the amount of money you will get from Social Security is percentage wise, a lot more the less you make. Make $100K you'd get $36.5K a year, Make $10K you'd get $8.1K. That aint a 10X difference.

"Can't win with Obama" don't you mean, can't find any reason to vote for Obama?

In 20 years I may make $250K, and just like a lot of old programs, somehow I'll suddenly be considered rich, because $250K seemed like a lot of money 20 years ago.

 

[Mooseknuckle]

Are you kidding me?

The last 6 years have been horrid.

Please explain. They haven't been horrid for me. I don't think that they were horrid for oil companies, or car companies, or DUB mfgr's, or home builders or mortgage brokers or railroads or tatoo parlors or landscapers or P/U lift mfgr's or exhaust makers or horsepower chip makes or tire guys or glass shops or drive thru car washes or farm equipment mfgr's or......

Now for lazy azzes that are on welfare, yes the gap got bigger. Maybe in the last year to year and a half some familys too. But then again I didn't buy a home I couldn't afford with income that was "projected". I didn't jack my 08 4 door LBZ Dmax 8 f'ing inches in the air, rolling on 24's with $2000 worth of skins slapped on those dubs so my wife could roll down to Whole Foods and spend twice as much on a head of lettuce.

In fact I can't even invite very many of you over to watch a sled flick, because my house is only 1100 sq feet (built in the 30's) with a wood stove and crappy window units for A/C. (and its hot a balls right now). Neither do I have a 50 inch wide screen or a Wii or GTA, heck I don't even have pong!!!!

What I do have is a bunch of yellow and green equipment outback that I operate and pay men (women too) a good wage to operate for me. This makes me money, and if I spend less than I make, hopefully there is enough left over to invest (pay less tax) and provide a chance for my "avatar" to get a head start on his life.

In the last six years I've married, expanded my farming, became a father and paid my taxes so that I have protection (fire & police & Military), roads and a safety net if I stumble. Those of you that think that higher taxes are going to fix it are not being honest about the "transfer of wealth". So Clinton's administration raised taxes and reduced deficit spending, not debt and there was this economic expansion. Why was there still a widening gap between the haves and the have nots? See examples above.

Giving money, "welfare", to people who only consume isn't going to fix a thing. People need to produce to generate wealth. If the assistance is used to regain economic footing, then I say bully. However, do you really think that a multi-generational welfare situation will solve its self with more money? IMHO Barack Obama is playing to, not the urban poor, but to the suburban almost poor. It looks like he's trying to put a little class envy into things.

enuf 4 now. You're all tired of me and it time to spur on the US economy by burning fuel to go to dinner and pay sales tax in a community that I don't live in. Viva the American Consumer!

I apologize in advance for spelling and grammer.

 

[2001400ex]

Still a lot of rambling and the scary thing is, the only fact posted on there is the intern/Clinton comment.

But either way, my whole point is, read what the candidates want and if you believe in the same as them that is great. And yes I know the matter of "No politician is going to do what they say." Bush is the greatest example of that, he could not even get his social security plan through his Repulican congress.

And why is it that the Republicans had 12 years control of congress, 6 years of complete control of the country, and they could not get the ANWR thing or off-shore thing going? And for those of you that want to blame Clinton, remember, it was Reagan that put the first ban in place in 1983 (or so) and Bush I that signed the continuation. Clinton has not signed one piece of legislation banning drilling in either place.

So why is it all of the sudden the Democrats fault for the high gas prices???

Keep em coming!!

 

[ruffryder]

Still a lot of rambling and the scary thing is, the only fact posted on there is the intern/Clinton comment.

But either way, my whole point is, read what the candidates want and if you believe in the same as them that is great. And yes I know the matter of "No politician is going to do what they say." Bush is the greatest example of that, he could not even get his social security plan through his Repulican congress.

And why is it that the Republicans had 12 years control of congress, 6 years of complete control of the country, and they could not get the ANWR thing or off-shore thing going? And for those of you that want to blame Clinton, remember, it was Reagan that put the first ban in place in 1983 (or so) and Bush I that signed the continuation. Clinton has not signed one piece of legislation banning drilling in either place.

So why is it all of the sudden the Democrats fault for the high gas prices???

Keep em coming!!

Ahhh don't make this a republican vs. democrat thing... they both suck and both are the reason for where we are as a country....

A question that has yet to be answered is were does the money go from the poor that only consume? Seems like some of you are saying it stops right there...

 

[2001400ex]

Ahhh don't make this a republican vs. democrat thing... they both suck and both are the reason for where we are as a country....

A question that has yet to be answered is were does the money go from the poor that only consume? Seems like some of you are saying it stops right there...

Yeah, not me making it a Repub vs. Demo. That is Hannity, O'Reilly, Rush, Beck, etc. I just get irritated with the whole drilling thing. Right now, the oil companies are sitting on 68 million acres of federal leases that are not being used. Why don't we use that first? And why the high gas prices? 3 of the top 5 oil companies produce enough oil to meet their gas demands.

I don't get the point of your second paragraph?!? But that makes the whole tax cut thing. When you cut taxes from the less wealthy, they spend it. When you cut from rich, they transfer it to other rich (buy homes, put it in stocks, whatever).

 

[Wade]

Yeah, not me making it a Repub vs. Demo. That is Hannity, O'Reilly, Rush, Beck, etc. I just get irritated with the whole drilling thing. Right now, the oil companies are sitting on 68 million acres of federal leases that are not being used. Why don't we use that first? And why the high gas prices? 3 of the top 5 oil companies produce enough oil to meet their gas demands.

I don't get the point of your second paragraph?!? But that makes the whole tax cut thing. When you cut taxes from the less wealthy, they spend it. When you cut from rich, they transfer it to other rich (buy homes, put it in stocks, whatever).

Would you pay money to sink a well were your people told you there's no oil. Or, would you invest your money in the area where your people told you the oil is?

"wealthy" Start new companies, invest in startups, save failing companies (I work for one o those), hire people to work for them, buy luxury items that pay craftsmen not cheap labor.

Do you guys actually believe that poor people only buy food and heating oil. You need to work in a poor neighborhood sometimes. Seems the only businesses in the government housing district were liquor stores. Six kids walked in to the store, each with a one dollar food stamp. They each buy a 10 cent piece of candy, they each get 90 cents change (there's no change food stamp change), they leave, in walks the old man with $5.40 in change. Want to guess what he bought, beer. I hear ****, drug dealers, prostitutes, alcohol, tobacco, and lotto made out real well on the last economic stimulus package.

 

[2001400ex]

I hear ****, drug dealers, prostitutes, alcohol, tobacco, and lotto made out real well on the last economic stimulus package.

I think you are trying to imply that only poor people use these escapes. When in fact the opposite is true. You would be amazed how many people I know that are wealthier than I am that spend their money with drugs, prostitutes, etc. I am not sure you want to go down that road.

But either way, spending money on those things is still creating jobs. Think of what the prositutes, drug dealers, etc. end up buying with that cash. They then spend that money back in the economy. So the more money going to them, the more jobs that are created, etc...

 

[Wade]

I doubt the economic stimulus package would have made a difference the expenditure of recreational activities of the rich. Point is, government cheese is for sale for 50 cents on the dollar.

 

[TurboT]

Our nation is only as strong as the people that make it. I have no pity for the poor. If a person wants to quit being poor, than he/she should try harder in life. Work more. The majority of wealth in our nation is from hard-working individuals that earn their standing. Not counting the hand me downs. Free riders and others that sit on their lazy butts and expect the hard working folks of our nation to supply them with "free" money is what destroys us, causing hatred, jealousy, etc. If he/she doesn't work, why should you/I be expected to put a pacifier in their mouth? Self worth is not understood in American society anymore. Everyone wants a cool million, whether it be suing a preacher's wife, hot McDonald's coffee, etc.....Greed!

 

[milehighassassin]

Please explain. They haven't been horrid for me. I don't think that they were horrid for oil companies, or car companies, or DUB mfgr's, or home builders or mortgage brokers or railroads or tatoo parlors or landscapers or P/U lift mfgr's or exhaust makers or horsepower chip makes or tire guys or glass shops or drive thru car washes or farm equipment mfgr's or......

Now for lazy azzes that are on welfare, yes the gap got bigger. Maybe in the last year to year and a half some familys too. But then again I didn't buy a home I couldn't afford with income that was "projected". I didn't jack my 08 4 door LBZ Dmax 8 f'ing inches in the air, rolling on 24's with $2000 worth of skins slapped on those dubs so my wife could roll down to Whole Foods and spend twice as much on a head of lettuce.

In fact I can't even invite very many of you over to watch a sled flick, because my house is only 1100 sq feet (built in the 30's) with a wood stove and crappy window units for A/C. (and its hot a balls right now). Neither do I have a 50 inch wide screen or a Wii or GTA, heck I don't even have pong!!!!

What I do have is a bunch of yellow and green equipment outback that I operate and pay men (women too) a good wage to operate for me. This makes me money, and if I spend less than I make, hopefully there is enough left over to invest (pay less tax) and provide a chance for my "avatar" to get a head start on his life.

In the last six years I've married, expanded my farming, became a father and paid my taxes so that I have protection (fire & police & Military), roads and a safety net if I stumble. Those of you that think that higher taxes are going to fix it are not being honest about the "transfer of wealth". So Clinton's administration raised taxes and reduced deficit spending, not debt and there was this economic expansion. Why was there still a widening gap between the haves and the have nots? See examples above.

Giving money, "welfare", to people who only consume isn't going to fix a thing. People need to produce to generate wealth. If the assistance is used to regain economic footing, then I say bully. However, do you really think that a multi-generational welfare situation will solve its self with more money? IMHO Barack Obama is playing to, not the urban poor, but to the suburban almost poor. It looks like he's trying to put a little class envy into things.

enuf 4 now. You're all tired of me and it time to spur on the US economy by burning fuel to go to dinner and pay sales tax in a community that I don't live in. Viva the American Consumer!

I apologize in advance for spelling and grammer.

I'm glad you have done good for yourself.

Oil companies have done good, but they have always done well. Car manufactures... LOL GM stock has not been this low since I think the 1930's. Ford is looking horrible and I won't even mention Chrysler.

Exhaust and "chip" manufactures have very very very little impact on the economy. Tattoo parlors? Is that a joke?

Have you seen the S&P 500? Nasdaq? Dow Average? Have you seen the price of fuel triple? Have you seen how weak the dollar is right now? Is the Loony still worth more? I am afraid to look at my 401k these days. We are in a FULL blown recession right now. We are spending money at an alarming rate, and we are borrowing that money from China. It will take us 20 years to pay this off.

 

[Wade]

And on the other side, everyone I know has a job right now. Everyone seems to have more toys than you can park in a four car garage. Biggest complaint is filling up the relatively new F250.

The stock market is resetting from the "unprecedented economic growth" of the 90s. Stocks became overvalued due to a overheated market, it's been resetting. Luckily, I believe the stock market will continue an upward, gradual growth now that the "artificial" market is dead.

Point is that everyone I know is doing good, until the past year. The past year has been getting tough on people, but 7 out of 8 years of a good economy is pretty good. Oil prices and commodities speculation have largely been responsible for the last years problems. There's also a presidential election coming up, and we all know there's usually a dip right before a hotly contested election. If you were an investment guy, listening to the craap coming out of both sides right now, can you honestly say you'd want to invest in the US?

 

[2001400ex]

And on the other side, everyone I know has a job right now. Everyone seems to have more toys than you can park in a four car garage. Biggest complaint is filling up the relatively new F250.

The stock market is resetting from the "unprecedented economic growth" of the 90s. Stocks became overvalued due to a overheated market, it's been resetting. Luckily, I believe the stock market will continue an upward, gradual growth now that the "artificial" market is dead.

Point is that everyone I know is doing good, until the past year. The past year has been getting tough on people, but 7 out of 8 years of a good economy is pretty good. Oil prices and commodities speculation have largely been responsible for the last years problems. There's also a presidential election coming up, and we all know there's usually a dip right before a hotly contested election. If you were an investment guy, listening to the craap coming out of both sides right now, can you honestly say you'd want to invest in the US?

Why don't you spend the time you spent researching the IRS code to actually research the stock market and what makes it tick. In case you were not aware, the stock market goes up for a period, typically 5 to 10 years, then goes down and loses a good portion of that value, typically from 6 months to 18 months.

And yes, the economy has had ZERO affect on my life, that does not mean it doesn't affect millions of Americans. And the majority of people I know got their toys from using their home as an ATM machine, irresponsibly spending money. The run up in the home market created the false economy of the last 5 years. Just because someone has toys does not mean they are well off.

 

[Wade]

Why don't you spend the time you spent researching the IRS code to actually research the stock market and what makes it tick. In case you were not aware, the stock market goes up for a period, typically 5 to 10 years, then goes down and loses a good portion of that value, typically from 6 months to 18 months.

And yes, the economy has had ZERO affect on my life, that does not mean it doesn't affect millions of Americans. And the majority of people I know got their toys from using their home as an ATM machine, irresponsibly spending money. The run up in the home market created the false economy of the last 5 years. Just because someone has toys does not mean they are well off.

I must agree with you, your references and data as pertaining to the stock market are undeniable. Why, with all the research you made available in that last argument, I was totally convinced.

Every read about the stock run up before the 29 stock crash? Big run up, big correction, eventual recovery. Yes, homes were used as ATMs, aren't you starting to see a pattern? Stocks, to homes, to commodiites, to farmland, to who knows what next. Everyone of these is a huge build up to an overheated position that's not substainable, and then a big correction.

The graph below kinda tells it all, lots new inventions, lots of money available to invest, people thought it would never end, at the top, the stock market had a PE ratio of 30, just like 2000. Then uh-oh.

Another good comparison if history repeating itself.

And another good comparison of the build up and crash of the 1929 and 2000 crashes.

You might notice that the build up was simular, but the crash was subdued this time. A lot of that is probably due to the war drums of Europe, 10 years after the 1929 crash. Looks like someone manged this correction better than Roosevelt did. Although, it could be argued that the housing ATMs compressed the recovery. Hard to say.

 

[Mooseknuckle]

Ahhh don't make this a republican vs. democrat thing... they both suck and both are the reason for where we are as a country....

I kinda agree with you on that one, but with the caveat that the use of "they" is in error. "We" I think is more appropriate, because "we" as a people don't ever seem to do anything about it.

A question that has yet to be answered is were does the money go from the poor that only consume? Seems like some of you are saying it stops right there...

It goes into the economy, but not in ways that are going to lift people out of poverty. Not to oversimplify, but what Wade said is kinda true in worst case scenarios. Far be it from me to tell you how to live, but if you think a bottle or smokes has a higher value than keeping you newborn properly clothed and fed, you and I aren't going to see eye to eye.

...3 of the top 5 oil companies produce enough oil to meet their gas demands.

Around here it refining capacity that limits not oil so much. When Katrina hit the gulf coast Cali's gas prices went up because of a reduction in refining capacity. WTF, first our oil comes from the west coast, not the gulf. Second our fuel is a different formulation than anywhere else. (ie CARB) But, up go the prices, irrespective of any change in oil price.

When you cut taxes from the less wealthy, they spend it. When you cut from rich, they transfer it to other rich (buy homes, put it in stocks, whatever).

Assuming the arguement to be true, that is still putting it to use, its just investing. I guess I could concede the point that the person who took their stimulis check and put a down payment on a big screen with the remainder on payments with a 20.7% rate is doing more the economy than the person who made an extra partial mortgage payment on their home.

...buy luxury items that pay craftsmen not cheap labor.

BULLY!!!!! Harumph!!!!!!!!! Craftsman, come back. I'm so tired of over priced junk (like homes) that are so great, but yet you have the builder back upteen times to fix chickenshat stuff that should have been done right the first time.

I think you are trying to imply that only poor people use these escapes. When in fact the opposite is true. You would be amazed how many people I know that are wealthier than I am that spend their money with drugs, prostitutes, etc. I am not sure you want to go down that road.

I will! You'll have to show me some numbers to back up the "fact" that only rich people use these escapes. You'd be surprised at the number of poorer people I know that spend their money on booze, smokes and gambling. Too much month at the end of the money, but always enough for the casino.

But either way, spending money on those things is still creating jobs. Think of what the prositutes, drug dealers, etc. end up buying with that cash. They then spend that money back in the economy. So the more money going to them, the more jobs that are created, etc...

What do prostitutes and dealers spend their money on. I've not witnessed the huge expansion of the fish net and feather boa industry. I would submit, however, that public resources are put to use. Emergency care, law enforcement, Child protective services and the like.

Our nation is only as strong as the people that make it. I have no pity for the poor. If a person wants to quit being poor, than he/she should try harder in life. Work more. The majority of wealth in our nation is from hard-working individuals that earn their standing. Not counting the hand me downs. Free riders and others that sit on their lazy butts and expect the hard working folks of our nation to supply them with "free" money is what destroys us, causing hatred, jealousy, etc. If he/she doesn't work, why should you/I be expected to put a pacifier in their mouth? Self worth is not understood in American society anymore. Everyone wants a cool million, whether it be suing a preacher's wife, hot McDonald's coffee, etc.....Greed!

Turbo - no pity for the poor? Or no pity for those that just don't care that they're poor. I'm willing to give just about anyone a helping hand. Hopefully they'll do the same (in kind of a "pay it forward" fashion). However, that hand gets yanked back if you are ungreatful for it. No hand is easier to bite, than the hand that feed you. I'd like to see everyone succeed, but I don't think we're all Donald Trumps. If people can understand that happiness and contentment has more to do with themselves, than say, the things that a presidential candidate says they'll do, we'd be a lot better off. T your right about greed!

I'm glad you have done good for yourself.

Oil companies have done good, but they have always done well. Car manufactures... LOL GM stock has not been this low since I think the 1930's. Ford is looking horrible and I won't even mention Chrysler.

Exhaust and "chip" manufactures have very very very little impact on the economy. Tattoo parlors? Is that a joke?

Have you seen the S&P 500? Nasdaq? Dow Average? Have you seen the price of fuel triple? Have you seen how weak the dollar is right now? Is the Loony still worth more? I am afraid to look at my 401k these days. We are in a FULL blown recession right now. We are spending money at an alarming rate, and we are borrowing that money from China. It will take us 20 years to pay this off.

Then don't say in the last six years. But since that was the time frame -

INDU up 35% +/-

S&P up 42% +/-

Nasdaq up 109% +/-

Fuel I will give you, 2.64 times increase here in Cali.

Tatoo parlors - no joke. Look at the number of people with ink, or junk sticking out of their face. I never saw a tv show about ink before a couple of seasons ago. There must be a dozen or more in town. Then again, there never was a show about welders that baked cakes before either.

 

[2001400ex]

Moose, I did mistype. With the drug, alcohol, prostitue, etc. comment, I meant that wealthy people abuse these just as much as poor people.

But either way, to solve the economy, it is obvious that tax cuts for the rich are not the answer. Wade, you have some nice charts, but what about what a country can do to solve the problem? We came out of the recession of 1991/1992 and raised taxes on the rich in 1993 and it was very successful. Let's try the same again.

 

[Wade]

Moose, I did mistype. With the drug, alcohol, prostitue, etc. comment, I meant that wealthy people abuse these just as much as poor people.

But either way, to solve the economy, it is obvious that tax cuts for the rich are not the answer. Wade, you have some nice charts, but what about what a country can do to solve the problem? We came out of the recession of 1991/1992 and raised taxes on the rich in 1993 and it was very successful. Let's try the same again.

Sure, if you get busy inventing the next internet bubble.

 

[Mooseknuckle]

OK, I'll bite.

• At what level are we considering "rich"?
  
  100,000 or 1,000,000 or 10,000,000
  
• Is that AGI or Gross Income?
  
• Will these increases have a sunset? Or would you accept that the additional tax increase for a given bracket be directed to only the principal on the national debt.

EX - you posted this earlier

When you cut taxes from the less wealthy, they spend it. When you cut from rich, they transfer it to other rich (buy homes, put it in stocks, whatever).

This is exactlyexactlyexactly why folks that are at the lower end of the spectrum economically will remain there. I'm not trying to go all Warren Buffet on you, but when people refuse to save, they will never get ahead.

Oh, they'll make more money, but the minute they get a raise its a new car/house/boat/carpet/etc. All the while using credit to bridge the inevitible gap that occurs should a hiccup happen to their check book. They'll get a COLA raise but will still overspend and pay a heck of a lot more than 3-5% for that borrowed money. I'm sorry, but even if you pile 5% more on the rich and 5% less on the "poor", the people I mentioned above still won't be able to make ends meet and save for a rainy day.