No Child Left Behind............

[ruffryder]

So you want your 5-year old to go to work instead of going to kindergarten?

Real world is a hell of a lot different than the classroom, yes ... a lot of people have a huge difficulty and/or simply don't want to make the adjustment after they get done with school ...

But, by the time I actually have some ... my kids need time in life to be kids, they'll have their entire adult lives to work ...

I'm not saying they aren't gonna have part-time jobs during school if they aren't playing sports, playing music, whatever, or during the summer, but ... they need school ... heh

I guess I was thinking more of the socratic method of teaching, pair them up with someone in the community (or extended family) and have them learn from them. I am not really talking about hard child labor, but there are many things children can do.

If it takes a community to raise a child, why do we put them in schools? Why not put them in the community? Granted the idea is just that idea, and the solution for the idea is very complicated with holes abound.

 

[Ollie]

For sake of argument.

It does not take a community or a village to raise a child. It takes a mother and father who care enough to get involved, and it is time that parents are held accountable for their childeren and the actions of their childeren. It is not the fault of society if your child is a monster.

We used to have the type of educational system you are talking about.
They got rid of it back in something like 1800. There is no forward progress if you only learn what has been done.

Once you have a good grounding in things like science, math, HISTORY, then I could see something like an aprentiship system where you choose a career path and learn that way. You have a good grounding to take what you learn from a master and go beyond it. Oh wait, I think they call that college.

 

[ruffryder]

For sake of argument.

It does not take a community or a village to raise a child. It takes a mother and father who care enough to get involved, and it is time that parents are held accountable for their childeren and the actions of their childeren. It is not the fault of society if your child is a monster.

We used to have the type of educational system you are talking about.
They got rid of it back in something like 1800. There is no forward progress if you only learn what has been done.

Once you have a good grounding in things like science, math, HISTORY, then I could see something like an aprentiship system where you choose a career path and learn that way. You have a good grounding to take what you learn from a master and go beyond it. Oh wait, I think they call that college.

Good points, all of them. I guess I feel that children do not get a good grounding in the above topics. I know that in my childhood, working on a farm, I learned more there than I did in school about the "grounded world". Standing next to my dad, hearing him do business and talking with him afterwards, and talking with other business people offered much more social learning? than anything learned in school. School is like looking into a box and learning it, why not learn while inside the box? (crap, I think I opened up the door for a thinking outside the box argument.)

 

[cpa]

This really has to be the best non snowmobile related thread I have seen on Snowest in a long time. Usually after 4 pages somone screws it up or highjacks the thread. Thanks to all.

I totally agree on getting rid of school board. In my wifes school district they do get paid. They cause more problems then they solve or even help with. The last board meeting my wife had to present at (about prom of course) they spend 2 hours fighting about a bus stop that one member wanted to add. His poor grandkids had to walk 712 feet to the nearest bus stop. He just had to have the bus stop right infront of their house.

I also believe that you could eliminate all district positions. The amount of money that the district takes away from the schools is mind boggling. The high school that I went to had a district building that was bigger than most of the schools employing 100's of people to do what "manage" the schools? Why does there need to be a state office of education and a district? The state office takes it cut, then what ever is left is passed to the district to take a cut, and then if anything is left the schools might get some. Eliminate one of the top levels (state or district) and add a vice principle at each high school to take up what little slack there might be. This would free up millions a year for the schools.

I apologize to all the district/state education employees that I have offended, but are you interested in creating/sustaining jobs for yourself or educating our youth and getting them the supplys/resources that they need. I would love to see or have explained to me why both levels are necessary.

I spent $187 last week on pens/pencils/paper for my wifes classroom because she couldn't get anymore this year. This is on top of the $200 we spent on Prom this month. I'm really not sure how much longer we can afford my wifes teaching habit.

 

[Summertime Blues]

How about out in the real world. Get rid of the classrooms and I think people would be amazed at what kids will learn.

That would work great in my area. You have a bunch of no good worthless parents who give birth to (many, many) children who then have no chance at success. They all hang out together and since they do not know any better cause trouble. Then by the time they are old enough to know better all they know how to do is cause trouble.

School is the only form of structure/disipline they get. That is if they go to school.

 

[Ollie]

The biggest problem as I see it is parents.
How many parents do you all know that send their kids off to school and expect the school to teach them manners, social skills and respect.

If the parents would simply teach those 3 things, the schools would be able to better teach because they wouldn't have to try to control the kids. They would be able to teach them.

And yes, fire everyone above school principal. It should be an elected position. The local area he wants to be in charge of should be able to say yes or no. They did a study a few years back in denver and it was flat out scary how much it cost to "administer" the school district. Yet we can't afford to give the kids enough books for everyone to have their own book, but you can bet the head dogs office has new computers.

 

[racingpit]

Another controversial topic....taxes.
It costs HUGE amounts of money to educate our children, yet our tax structure is such that the more kids you have, the less tax you pay.How messed up is that?

It doesn't stop there. Our welfare system is set up to financially reward people for having children they cannot afford. WTF??

If you can't afford to feed your kids, educate your kids, provide for your kids, clothe your kids.....then maybe YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE KIDS!!!!!


OK Flame away!

I agree with you! My parents had to pay for my insurance, and pay for me when I was born. I see these young mothers (not all, just some) that have babies when they want, with no money. They don't pay a dime for health care for their kids. However, we cannot forget these kids, as they do need to be healthy. I think that there needs to be retribution on the part of the parents, like take a percentage out of their social security when they get older to pay for the costs of paying for their child's medical expenses, and hospital bills. This might make people think twice before having unprotected sex, and they might be more responsible and decide to have children at time in their lives when they can support their children. I think it is unfair that people who are responsible have to pay, while those who don't care don't have to pay a dime.

 

[Mafesto]

I agree with you! My parents had to pay for my insurance, and pay for me when I was born. I see these young mothers (not all, just some) that have babies when they want, with no money. They don't pay a dime for health care for their kids. However, we cannot forget these kids, as they do need to be healthy. I think that there needs to be retribution on the part of the parents, like take a percentage out of their social security when they get older to pay for the costs of paying for their child's medical expenses, and hospital bills. This might make people think twice before having unprotected sex, and they might be more responsible and decide to have children at time in their lives when they can support their children. I think it is unfair that people who are responsible have to pay, while those who don't care don't have to pay a dime.

Can't we just sterilize the poor people?

 

[racingpit]

UW has become a complete joke.

It's unbelievable how much money that school gets for no bigger than it is and it's even more unbelievable how little they actually accomplish with that much money. Christ, I called the COE placement rep 4 years ago asking about what type and how many companies came to the COE recruiting fairs, and it was dismal ... He said in 2003 they had like a whopping 23 companies come or something to their spring fair. I asked him about placement, meaning how many of their graduates had a job within 6 months after graduating and he couldn't even give me that number ...

A bunch of freaking sheep herders in the stage legislature seem to think that in the least populated state in the country with arguably the largest percentage of non-degreed working-class people in the country needs to be the "research center for the rocky mountain region" ..

They'd rather dump millions upon millions of dollars into the worst D1A football program in the country than renovate the dorms they require students to live in, etc...build a freakin' parking garage, the list goes on and on. "Cowboy up!" ... whatever.

Also, how in the world are they changing getting a bachelor's in education to a 5-year program? That's one of the easiest degrees to get there is, especially from UW ... are they adding in extended student-teaching requirements or something?

Wow, thanks for bashing the state of Wyoming..... I love Wyoming.

We have studied this exact problem in my economics class. The problem is, many of the smarter students don't feel that their education will be sufficient at the University of Wyoming. The problem is, UW doesn't really have any competition in the state. They are the only 4 year college. The solution would be to create another 4 year college to create competition and add to the quality of education at both colleges. Wyoming has been putting lots of many towards education now that Wyoming is very wealthy due to mineral production. They have created the Hathaway Fund which pays for every kid in Wyoming to go to a Wyoming college at no charge if they keep their grads up while they are in high school, as well as if they keep their grades up in college. This is a big attempt at keeping students in Wyoming. The problem is that many of the students in Wyoming cannot find jobs here. There really aren't any industries other than tourism, farming, ranching, retail, and natural resources.

Wyoming needs to embrace new corporations and businesses. They need to help entrepreneurs more, and help keep the basic building blocks of the economy going. Wyoming is a very business friendly state, with no state personal or state corporate income tax. The problem is right now, Wyoming is going through a boom. Corporations have pulled out due to the high cost of wages (competing with the mineral industry).

If UW were to get more into research, other businesses will come to Wyoming. The bottom line is that Wyoming needs to keep their younger population in the state.

Dogmeat- I disagree with your attitude towards Wyoming. I get the feeling you want to keep Wyoming down, and be a part of the problem rather than the solution. The solution is to help make Wyoming a very educated state.

 

[Ollie]

Can't we just sterilize the poor people?

Heres a true statement for ya.
Stupid people, raise stupid kids.

You want to take care of the people that have kids for the tax breaks or welfare breaks. hold the parents accountable.
If the kid breaks the law, make the parents pay for it. Lawyers, legal expenses and any damage as a result of the kids actions and you will see parents start to actually take charge of their kids.

As long as they can excuse it away and have no negative results applied to them, it will never change. You make the parents be parents and things will change. Right now a lot of people just look at kids as a side effect of sex.

 

[Dogmeat]

Wow, thanks for bashing the state of Wyoming..... I love Wyoming.

Born and raised, and I also attended UW for a semester before going to Casper College because I wanted some quality instruction. I eventually did go to an out-of-state school to finish the degree however.

We have studied this exact problem in my economics class. The problem is, many of the smarter students don't feel that their education will be sufficient at the University of Wyoming.

I would offer the suggestion that's because UW deliberatley doesn't focus on it's undergrad program(s) at all. They've got all this oil money from the state and a bunch of non-Wyoming native administrators (Remember Dubois? Boy he was a real peach ) that are completley out of touch with the needs of the young people in the state of Wyoming. These morons, such as Dubois was, are trying to turn UW into the "Research Mecca of the Rockies". That is quite literally as stupid of idea as trying to turn the Cowboys into a competitive D1A football time, and I don't need to even go any further with that. Laramie is not, nor will it ever be, a "Top Tier" school. It's just not in the cards for it much the same way the football program isn't, and it does no good whatsoever to keep throwing money at a sinking ship.

The focus of UW should be on it's undergrad program for young Wyomingites, not for everyone else in the country and/or world. The focus should be on getting good jobs for Wyoming kids, not attracting a bunch of damned foreigners for grad school because nowhere else would accept them. UW does not focus on what it needs to, and that's the biggest problem I have with it. Case in point, the school I graduated had 154 companies come to the COE career fair the semester I graduated. I bet UW had maybe 30 that semester. Compare that number to what UW had recruit back in the 70's. It's gone way down since then.

The problem is, UW doesn't really have any competition in the state. They are the only 4 year college. The solution would be to create another 4 year college to create competition and add to the quality of education at both colleges. Wyoming has been putting lots of many towards education now that Wyoming is very wealthy due to mineral production.

I will try to prove this, but I've been told by a few people that it's actually in the Wyoming State Constitution to have a School of Mines....IE, a "technology-specific" school as well as the University, but it's never come to pass because UW wants to hog all the money. Personally I think having a Wyoming School of Mines is a phenomenal idea.

They have created the Hathaway Fund which pays for every kid in Wyoming to go to a Wyoming college at no charge if they keep their grads up while they are in high school, as well as if they keep their grades up in college. This is a big attempt at keeping students in Wyoming. The problem is that many of the students in Wyoming cannot find jobs here. There really aren't any industries other than tourism, farming, ranching, retail, and natural resources.

Which is exactly why I think a "Wyoming School of Mines" is a great idea. Does the least-populated state in the nation really need to dump gobs and gobs and gobs of money into a University so that foreigners who were rejected from more stringent programs can come say they got a grad degree then leave and go somewhere else? I don't think so.

Wyoming needs to embrace new corporations and businesses. They need to help entrepreneurs more, and help keep the basic building blocks of the economy going.

What reason do new corporations have for coming there? That's the major problem.

Wyoming is a very business friendly state, with no state personal or state corporate income tax. The problem is right now, Wyoming is going through a boom. Corporations have pulled out due to the high cost of wages (competing with the mineral industry).

Which corporations would those be?

If UW were to get more into research, other businesses will come to Wyoming. The bottom line is that Wyoming needs to keep their younger population in the state.

That's all they focus on. With how much money they have, they can't even renovate Orr hall so the ceilings don't leak or the ventilation system so every kid in the place doesn't get sick? I've seen better facilities at Jr. Colleges in towns with 5,000 people in them (Powell, CC, I'm sure the jr. college is sheridan is better too).

But wait, what's this, a 5 million dollar weight room for the football team? Great.

Dogmeat- I disagree with your attitude towards Wyoming. I get the feeling you want to keep Wyoming down, and be a part of the problem rather than the solution. The solution is to help make Wyoming a very educated state.

Why would I want to keep my home state, town down? If there was any economic incentive for me to be there at all I would be. I would _LOVE_ to have the opportunity to work as an engineer there doing something other than oilfield stuff. In fact, that was the only reason I "came back" ... even though I'm in Utah right now, I pretty well gave up a LOT of other good career opportunities in other parts of the country to be closer to home ...

I really disagree with saying Wyoming is a "business friendly" state because of having no income taxes. Any time someone wants to do build something there, be it wind turbines, a Budweiser brewery, anything, it's met with nothing but opposition in the Wyoming state legislature. The reason Wyoming doesn't have more business is because by and large it's the least progressive state in the nation, and the state government has a lot to do with that, but in turn, that's because of the low population. THere are quite a few people in Wyoming who don't ever want to see Wyoming become more populated than it is...

There's two sides to that, a big part of me understands that, but a big part of me hates it that way too. I've said it for years, Wyoming's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness (low population)

You also have to understand, there's been plenty of time for "corporations" to move into Wyoming when the price of land and labor was cheap (80's and 90's anyone?) and somehow nothing happened, and this was supposedly when the US economy was great....There's always a lot of people in the legislature it seems, as well as local municipalities, that just don't want the industry there...

I dunno man, like I said, I'm all for Wyoming having a great economy ... I'm probably about as much of a polar opposite as you can get as far as saying I'm somone who wants to "Keep Wyoming Down" ..... The ding dongs in the state legislature however I'm not so sure about. It's been this way for 20+ years. You either own a ranch you've had handed down to you through your family the last 3 generations, or you flip burgers for tourists .... and if the political climate is right you can make a decent living for 10 years working in the patch till the political football that is the rocky mountain oilfield is in posession of the other team

I'm sure I'll step on some "Wyoming Toes" by saying this, but most of the legislatures that are from the more sparsley populated areas in the state are the ones who seem to me to support new business and industry less so than the ones from say Casper and Cheyenne ...

I dunno, don't mean to rant, but I guess the topic kinda "hits close to home"

 

[ruffryder]

Heres a true statement for ya.
Stupid people, raise stupid kids.

You guys should see Idiocracy! It is the future if they keep breeding!

 

[cmantle1]

You guys should see Idiocracy! It is the future if they keep breeding!

AWESOME movie.....

 

[racingpit]

Born and raised, and I also attended UW for a semester before going to Casper College because I wanted some quality instruction. I eventually did go to an out-of-state school to finish the degree however.



I would offer the suggestion that's because UW deliberatley doesn't focus on it's undergrad program(s) at all. They've got all this oil money from the state and a bunch of non-Wyoming native administrators (Remember Dubois? Boy he was a real peach ) that are completley out of touch with the needs of the young people in the state of Wyoming. These morons, such as Dubois was, are trying to turn UW into the "Research Mecca of the Rockies". That is quite literally as stupid of idea as trying to turn the Cowboys into a competitive D1A football time, and I don't need to even go any further with that. Laramie is not, nor will it ever be, a "Top Tier" school. It's just not in the cards for it much the same way the football program isn't, and it does no good whatsoever to keep throwing money at a sinking ship.

The focus of UW should be on it's undergrad program for young Wyomingites, not for everyone else in the country and/or world. The focus should be on getting good jobs for Wyoming kids, not attracting a bunch of damned foreigners for grad school because nowhere else would accept them. UW does not focus on what it needs to, and that's the biggest problem I have with it. Case in point, the school I graduated had 154 companies come to the COE career fair the semester I graduated. I bet UW had maybe 30 that semester. Compare that number to what UW had recruit back in the 70's. It's gone way down since then.



I will try to prove this, but I've been told by a few people that it's actually in the Wyoming State Constitution to have a School of Mines....IE, a "technology-specific" school as well as the University, but it's never come to pass because UW wants to hog all the money. Personally I think having a Wyoming School of Mines is a phenomenal idea.



Which is exactly why I think a "Wyoming School of Mines" is a great idea. Does the least-populated state in the nation really need to dump gobs and gobs and gobs of money into a University so that foreigners who were rejected from more stringent programs can come say they got a grad degree then leave and go somewhere else? I don't think so.



What reason do new corporations have for coming there? That's the major problem.



Which corporations would those be?



That's all they focus on. With how much money they have, they can't even renovate Orr hall so the ceilings don't leak or the ventilation system so every kid in the place doesn't get sick? I've seen better facilities at Jr. Colleges in towns with 5,000 people in them (Powell, CC, I'm sure the jr. college is sheridan is better too).

But wait, what's this, a 5 million dollar weight room for the football team? Great.



Why would I want to keep my home state, town down? If there was any economic incentive for me to be there at all I would be. I would _LOVE_ to have the opportunity to work as an engineer there doing something other than oilfield stuff. In fact, that was the only reason I "came back" ... even though I'm in Utah right now, I pretty well gave up a LOT of other good career opportunities in other parts of the country to be closer to home ...

I really disagree with saying Wyoming is a "business friendly" state because of having no income taxes. Any time someone wants to do build something there, be it wind turbines, a Budweiser brewery, anything, it's met with nothing but opposition in the Wyoming state legislature. The reason Wyoming doesn't have more business is because by and large it's the least progressive state in the nation, and the state government has a lot to do with that, but in turn, that's because of the low population. THere are quite a few people in Wyoming who don't ever want to see Wyoming become more populated than it is...

There's two sides to that, a big part of me understands that, but a big part of me hates it that way too. I've said it for years, Wyoming's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness (low population)

You also have to understand, there's been plenty of time for "corporations" to move into Wyoming when the price of land and labor was cheap (80's and 90's anyone?) and somehow nothing happened, and this was supposedly when the US economy was great....There's always a lot of people in the legislature it seems, as well as local municipalities, that just don't want the industry there...

I dunno man, like I said, I'm all for Wyoming having a great economy ... I'm probably about as much of a polar opposite as you can get as far as saying I'm somone who wants to "Keep Wyoming Down" ..... The ding dongs in the state legislature however I'm not so sure about. It's been this way for 20+ years. You either own a ranch you've had handed down to you through your family the last 3 generations, or you flip burgers for tourists .... and if the political climate is right you can make a decent living for 10 years working in the patch till the political football that is the rocky mountain oilfield is in posession of the other team

I'm sure I'll step on some "Wyoming Toes" by saying this, but most of the legislatures that are from the more sparsley populated areas in the state are the ones who seem to me to support new business and industry less so than the ones from say Casper and Cheyenne ...

I dunno, don't mean to rant, but I guess the topic kinda "hits close to home"

Dogmeat- I respect your comments, you do offer many valid points.

I agree with you for the most part. Many of the "good old boys" are why our state cannot get any better.

 

[Scott]

This is a pretty good thread.

We just had a a HUGE weird school board situation with our BB coach and AD. Google "Florence".

Darby just had the same thing with their HS principal.

 

[ruffryder]

AWESOME movie.....

Its got electrolytes.... ha ha ha ha

 

[Bubba700]

Just read this and I agree with almost all of it. I fall in to that catagory of school was to easy, took honors classes, never did home work, still ended up with a 3.85. When I graduated i didn't feel like I had been pushed. Because of it when I started college I had terrible study habbits. I agree much of the problems come from in schools comes from not having parents do their parts. My mom is a sub in pub schools and it seems like she spends more time trying to baby sit students than she does teach them. If parents would take more time at home and teach their kids dicipline, respect, and what it means to be a good person then the teachers would have more time to teach.
Not being able to hold a student back with out his parents sayso, give me a break , flunk the idiot and make him learn the info.

 

[Ollie]

When I was in school they had a VERY powerful tool to make you behave.
They would embarras you. Make you look like a total idiot in front of the whole class.
It worked too.
Now they call that child abuse.
The schools have been hamstrung when it comes to discipline. Every one expect the schools to raise their childeren, but the schools can't do anything to the trouble makers.

 

[cmantle1]

Its got electrolytes.... ha ha ha ha

hahah, my favorite part.....

"This is an IQ test, if i have one box with three things in it, and another with 4 things, how many boxes do i have?"

or something along those lines, made me LOL hard...

 

[skidoorulz]

There are two problems with the school system now days!!!! They are DAD and MOM. My knowledge of education is this. Wife is ateacher here in Billings, Sister in law is a teacher in Miles City, Sister is a teacher in Pierre S. Dakota, another sister is a teacher in Salt Lake City UT. All of them are sick of parents. Parents whine about homework cause little Johnny won't have time to do it cause he is in 3 differant sports after school. My wife has a student in 2nd grade that the Principle and her wanted to put in 1st grade when the parents decided they could not home school their 12 kids anymore in the middle of the school year and they tested this child and she was way behind but the parents would not allow her to be placed in 1st grade. Now this child is doing miserably and hates school and guess who is getting the blame? Now to address the home school issue. Most parents home schooling their kids should not be doing it, They usually find out that their abilities to do this are limited and then they put them back into the public school system and expect the system to catch them up. Sometimes it can and sometimes it can't. NCLB may not be a bad idea but it causes the teachers to teach to the test so that their schools will meet the standards.