New Motor Fist Gear...AWESOME!!!

[Spur]

Funny to see some one talk so much about klims experience. You do realize the owners of MF are the same people that got KLIM of the ground?

Everyone says nothing can compete with KLIM cause of the goretex. It makes me laugh. I have 3 seasons on a TOBE jacket that isn't goretex and after 30 plus days a winter, many over the hood days, it looks brand new and it has never "leaked" one time. There is stuff out there every bit as good as KLIM. But thankfully for the owners of KLIM there are guys like you out there that won't believe that anything could ever compete with the special K.

One of the owners of MF was involved in the original conception of Klim, but the master mind of Klim has always been the same.

I'm glad your Tobe gear has lasted 3 years and I hope it last 3 more. This does not change the fact that the very membrane Tobe used for their waterproof membrane was the exact membrane Klim used in the beginning. It was only after years of having to warranty gear that did not hold up for the masses that Klim realized that to build the best product they had to use the best products. All the testing and research came down to one membrane capable of holding up for the masses, Gore-Tex. It's was a tough pill to swallow considering the work, effort, and cost involved in getting approved to use Gore-Tex, but in the end the options were limited. Either buck up and pay the price to build the best gear, or continue to use a clone membrane and continue to live with a 30% failure rate which is about what Klim was having with any of the clone membranes on the market including eVent. As it stand right now with Gore-Tex they have less than a 1% failure rate. You do the math.

Say what you will, but trust me when I tell you if Gore-Tex were to ever offer MF the chance to use their product, they would switch before morning. Why? because Gore-Tex puts you in a class of your own.

 

[mtnpull]

So for $200.00 you gave up Gore-Tex and went with a waterproof membrane that may last a year if your lucky. The outer layer is so thick and stiff it's like riding in a Kevlar suit. I've had suits like that back in the 70's

Did you know Klim use to make gear out of these same materials before they found better technology. I'm certain Klim is so far ahead in experience and technology they will continue to own the drawing board for many years. Where MotorFist is, Klim once was and where Klim is MotorFist will need Gore-Tex and experience to become.

I wish MotorFist the best, and will buy some of their products because I like to see new companies be successful, but I have no illusions about the fact that they are 15 years behind in experience, and will obviously make many of the same mistakes Klim made on the way.

Perhaps you didn't know that Klim is waaaay behind the Ski industry when it comes to clothing and outer layers? At least 2-3 years behind. Stop talking it up so much. There are dozens of other options that are better, have more technology and don't cost as much or comparable. You just have to look outside your motorsport dealership.

 

[Spur]

Perhaps you didn't know that Klim is waaaay behind the Ski industry when it comes to clothing and outer layers? At least 2-3 years behind. Stop talking it up so much. There are dozens of other options that are better, have more technology and don't cost as much or comparable. You just have to look outside your motorsport dealership.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the snowmobile industry. My bad.

However, you brought up an interesting point so I did a little research. The top three rated ski clothing manufactures are:

1. Arc'tery X - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.
2. Marmot - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.
3. North Face - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.

Top rated hunting clothing manufactures are:

1. Sitka - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.
2. Browning - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex.
3. Cabelas - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex

Top rated fishing waders are:

1. Simms - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex
2. Cloudveil - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex.

I don't have time to do the research on boots, but I'd bet a barrel of race fuel the top three rated manufactures of waterproof boots use a Gore-Tex membrane.

Thanks for helping me make my point.

 

[Ace Freely]

Another take on gore tex....





Could 2007 be the break-out year for eVent? eVent what you say? And that, my friends, is the problem. Most people have still never heard of eVent. Probably the same people that wonder why they always feel wet when they exercise in Goretex. And that's one of the big differences between the two. eVent lets moisture escape, Goretex doesn't. Not very well at least, though they claim it does. Maybe after you've heated yourself up enough to create a pressure difference to push the moisture out, but not before soaking you in sweat. You don't have to take my word on that, but you'd better believe the US Army. They never lie and they conducted extensive tests on fabric breathability and found this (right mouse click on PDF to download the study):

The US Army’s Natick tests of waterproof-breathable laminates reported that eVENT fabric proved to be the most breathable of all materials tested, averaging twice the breathability of its closest competitor. Testing included the likes of Gore-Tex XCR®, Sympatex®, and various other waterproof-breathable fabrics. (source: FeedtheHabit)

But Goretex is a marketing machine and keeps everyone thinking it's the most breathable. Pro Shell is already being marketed as more breathable and lighter than XCR. Even if consumers knew the truth had enough information to make an informed decision, eVent still faces a huge uphill battle given Goretex's almost monopoly power in the industry. Try telling Goretex you're going to have an eVent jacket in your line. Just try. I dare you. That's why the two lists below are exclusive. But lets look at that list shall we? Old and stodgy versus young(ish), innovative and nimble perhaps? Westcomb won an Ispo, but I imagine it was more for the design and ipod controls than the use of eVent. But still, it's some momentum for eVent and Westcomb. Though if ArcTeryx is suing them again, it might be a setback. Here are some of the big contestants in the 07/08 battle royale. You know my take on the matter. Support the little guys on the right versus the corporation on the left.


Pro Shell eVent
Arc'Teryx RAB
Marmot Westcomb
Mountain Hardwear Loki
MEC Vaude
Burton Feathered Friends
Outdoor Research Integral Designs
Spyder O'neil
Eider DC Snow
Vans Descente Athletic
North Face 66° North



Ace

 

[mtnpull]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the snowmobile industry. My bad.

However, you brought up an interesting point so I did a little research. The top three rated ski clothing manufactures are:

1. Arc'tery X - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.
2. Marmot - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.
3. North Face - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.

Top rated hunting clothing manufactures are:

1. Sitka - waterproof membrane... Gore-Tex.
2. Browning - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex.
3. Cabelas - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex

Top rated fishing waders are:

1. Simms - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex
2. Cloudveil - waterproof membrane...Gore-Tex.

I don't have time to do the research on boots, but I'd bet a barrel of race fuel the top three rated manufactures of waterproof boots use a Gore-Tex membrane.

Thanks for helping me make my point.

I thought we were talking about performance winter outer wear. There is more to top quality product than just gortex. Although, I agree with you in the fact that gortex is a great product and makes for a great waterproof layer and a high quality product. I personally prefer to wear a stretch gortex jacket. It is much more comfortable than a standard gortex jacket. Does klim offer stretch gortex?

 

[Spur]

Another take on gore tex....

Could 2007 be the break-out year for eVent? eVent what you say? And that, my friends, is the problem. Most people have still never heard of eVent. Probably the same people that wonder why they always feel wet when they exercise in Goretex. And that's one of the big differences between the two. eVent lets moisture escape, Goretex doesn't. Not very well at least, though they claim it does. Maybe after you've heated yourself up enough to create a pressure difference to push the moisture out, but not before soaking you in sweat. You don't have to take my word on that, but you'd better believe the US Army. They never lie and they conducted extensive tests on fabric breathability and found this (right mouse click on PDF to download the study):

The US Army’s Natick tests of waterproof-breathable laminates reported that eVENT fabric proved to be the most breathable of all materials tested, averaging twice the breathability of its closest competitor. Testing included the likes of Gore-Tex XCR®, Sympatex®, and various other waterproof-breathable fabrics. (source: FeedtheHabit)




This is very true information. There is no doubt eVent is the most breathable waterproof membrane on the market today.

What’s missing in this information is eVent copied a version of Gore-Tex from years ago when they first started to figure out how to build a waterproof breathable membrane. The problem Gore-Tex had when they were making their membrane with large pores like eVent does today was the membrane did not maintain it’s waterproof properties very long. The pores in the membrane were so large (which is what gives it such a great ability to breathe) that they were expanding when stressed, and causing the membrane to leak. Gore went back to the drawing board and developed a membrane that will breathe, and could be guaranteed for life. It was a matter of finding the perfect balance between breathe-ability and durability. That’s what makes them No.1, that and their unprecedented seam sealing system which none of the clone membranes have been able to figure out completely.

All of the clone membranes will work great for a short period of time. I’ve had clones that lasted several years as long as I treated them gently, and never really stressed them. Something most aggressive riders don’t do. Gore wanted a product that they could guarantee for life. Something none of the clones can do. Klim found out the hard way by using eVent and a couple other clones that they all work good for the first year, but after that they had a failure rate of 30%. It came from stress on the membrane, and stress on the seams. The main area of failure was the seat of the pants or bibs. The second most common place for leaking came from the shoulders and seams on the shoulders.

All of the product manufactures listed above will testify that their failure rate has been reduced tremendously since signing a Gore contract. I know Klim went from 30% to less than 1%.

 

[Ace Freely]

Good info Spur! You seem to have a lot of "insider" info regarding Klim and or Gore! Do you work for either, or in the industry?


Ace

 

[Spur]

Good info Spur! You seem to have a lot of "insider" info regarding Klim and or Gore! Do you work for either, or in the industry?


Ace

No I do not work for Klim or Gore-Tex. I know the owner of Klim and have a great deal of admiration for him. I watched him build Klim from the ground up. Just a guy with a vision and a dream. I watched him fight to keep his dream alive against almost insurmountable odds. No golden spoon, no trust fund money, just hard work, guts, and determination.

My experience with Gore-Tex and other membranes came as a consultant for several companies hired to do R&D on waterproof clothing for the hunting and fishing industry.

 

[ALTITUDE]

I hate smoke and mirrors, dishonesty, deception and jealousy.

Spur, It seems that you have a ridiculous amount of time on your hands to bash MotorFist. I don't know if you are a bored mortgage loan broker in a bad economy or just a guy that rubs one out to the new Klim catalog on a regular basis, but this new MotorFist gear is good stuff.

Klim has a certain following much like that of a brand loyal snowmobiler. Klim could produce the equivalent of the 2005 Polaris 900 RMK and people like you would still brag it up.

My point is that Klim used to be a benchmark, but today they are nothing more than the FOX of snowmobile gear, riding on a reputation. Basically, they have sold out to the guys that think they can BUY their riding skills. I would guess that there are more guys wearing Klim sitting on their turbo Apex and/or Nitro at the bottom of the hill professing their awesomeness than any other brand. Heck some of them probably even have custom painted elk skulls on their hoods. The sad part is they are just down at the bottom looking cool, talking the talk.

I like how you started by saying you wondered if MotorFist was a cheaper line of Klim, knowing full well that it is not. Seems strange that you would proclaim your hatred for deception and dishonesty.

Gore is a known supporter of the green movement, this is a fact, look it up. Gore's patent has run out on their product and it is being copied to the same specs that made Klim what they are today. The one thing that I have learned from reading these posts, is that people on Snowest really liked what Klim used to be, and are becoming dis-satisfied with what it has become today. That tends to happen when a company gets "comfortable" in the marketplace. They often forget their roots.

You cite MotorFist's warranty and compare it to a fishing rod. Good comparison, how does your Apex climb compared to your couch? I believe the point that MotorFist was trying to make is that no matter what happens to "damage" your gear, they will do the best that they possibly can in assisting you in getting your gear to a useable state, even if it is not a manufacturer defect. In other words, they will not be trying to explain how the beer you spilled on your right sleeve some how comprimised the integrity of the thread used to stitch the seam in the shoulder.

The fact is that MotorFist is great gear and it scares you Klim boys because you finally have some real competition.

Spur, i know that you are trying to defend your friend/hero here, but your comment about hating smoke and mirrors, dishonesty, deception and jealousy have taken any credability you once had as your whole existence on this forum are built around those very things. Time to change your username again bud.

 

[H.I. McDunna]

Spur is biased.

The proof is in the pudding. happy customers are all over this board and others with no pure "insider" info like Spur.

That's what kills guys like Spur. I am sure those he knows at Klim are really angry with MotorFist. Why would they care? Is MotorFist that big of threat? Why do you care???

Like the X-Files "the truth is out there" about eVent.
eVent is durable. Many reputable companies have used it FOR YEARS with no problems. Polaris has used eVent for years with a less that 1% faliure rate with it and continue to use it. Gore has a very good marking propaganda machine. True.

Backpaker magazine picked eVent has the product of choice OVER all the Gore companies out there. Backpacker magazine for those who know is the authority in the world Spur cites.(north face, arcteryc ect) Its a better membrane and the durability isn't even questioned here there. and doesn't need to be IT"S PROVEN by companies that produce more outerwear than Klim. Why would they trust eVent? BTW, North face, Patagonia all use different membranes than Gore in their line. Some up to 50% in "other" membranes.

http://www.eventfabrics.com/industry_buzz.php

Klim will probably always be #1. So Spur has no need to worry. Klim brought waterproof/breathable ideas to snowmobiling. They make a great product.

But for the rest of us that want something outside the norm that works or those riders who really look for the extra edge they know where to go. MotorFist, IMO.

Those riders who want something differnt or better in thier opinion, will do the research. Those who want to buy what is "proven" and want to feed the machine they know where to go, Klim.

MotorFist is not Klim and Klim is not MotorFist. Some riders want one some want the others. Just chill.

 

[Snowmark]

wet

from my experience the waterproof and breathability of the fabrics is insignificant to the amount of perspiration I give off while riding....no matter what I wear, (Klim for the last 6 years), I am soaked during/after every ride, not from water coming in but from sweat....i have to open my jacket or take it off to get it to dry out some, no fabrics breathe enough to dry me off while I'm wearing it, sure it may help but not to any significant degree....i usually wear one layer of poly underneath.....for me the real test of the garment is how easy it rips, Klim is not bad compared to say Columbia but my K stuff is completely shredded, when i first touched the MF I knew right there that it would be the most resistant to rips,(i am a dedicated tree rider) thats why I bought it...the toughness of the material, period.....what good is breatheability when your riding around with confetti on your back? Whoever picked out the material MF is made of did a great job.

 

[Ace Freely]

I had the oppertunity (misfortune!) to test both Klim and MF this weekend. I dropped into a hole, thinking that there was a flat spot to turn around. There wasn't, and like most good holes, it was steep and full of downed trees under the snow. My buddy came down with me, wearing his Klim coat and bibs, and I with my MF coat and bibs. (I left my Klim at home.) 3.5 hours of digging, pulling, lifting, cutting, bungee pulling, (and of course swearing!) we were out! On top of the hill, as the sun went down, my buddy started to shiver. He took of his Klim coat, and the inside had a ton of moisture beads collected on the inside! I took mine off, and it was dry to the touch! His legs were freezing, because the gaiter is too large to provide a tight seal around his boots, and he had snow balls around the top of his boot!! Both of us were amazed at how dry I was, and how wet he was....


....I believe this is as close as a side by side comparison that you can get!


Ace

 

[Drifter]

If you still like gore-tex but dont like Klim of Moto Fist. Try Farwestcanada.com. Had my first set of avalanche pants for six years, just retired them because the bottom of the pants were ripped and burnt. They still kept me dry though. Not sure what there warrantee is like.

 

[WingNutRacing]

MF prices?

I thought they said they were gonna be less expensive? Looks like the same as everything else is priced???????????????