New iBackshift (Dalton) pDrive primary spring (100-360)

[Dynamo^Joe]

Joe according to this website, Vespel® comes standard in the RS600 race drive clutches.
so does that mean they only are in the RS600 race drive clutches from BRP? and would be an upgrade for the other clutches?

I dont know IF there is a difference between pDrive torque rollers on the 600RS vs a 600Etec or 850.
600Etec & 850
417224153 Back Torque Roller
417224154 Torque Roller

2020 x 600RS
417223991 Back Torque Roller
417224458 Torque Roller

Sometimes its a different part number because its from a different part vendor. Like say maybe the ...153 might be from CVTech-IBC (vespel vendor) and the ...991 could be from Team-Ind (vespel vendor)

I dont know. Not bringin any in to check difference either, considering the "bend over" price. haha

In the end, the #1 maintenance failure prevention is just old fashioned Predictive Maintenance (regular inspect and competent cleaning) to determine IF one needs to be changed or not.

I have a few 600rs spiders but i've not the time to take them apart to measure, sorry man.

 

[IcutMetl]

Ordered a fresh secondary spring and the 100/360 primary for this season; should make a great thing even better.

 

[camyoung603]

How do the red dalton springs work on a sled that has one of your kits installed already

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

Last season kits had a pr

How do the red dalton springs work on a sled that has one of your kits installed already

Hi. Lower engagement speed. Usually with say 965 and 990 ramps the engagement is 30~3100 rpms because of the 125~130lb start force. With the red 100/xxx start force, now around 28~2900 and start to move the sled.

 

[camyoung603]

Do you notice the couple of extra rpms or is it a must have for tree riding

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

I tested down to 2200 rpms engagement speed. But the spring I can make is 100 start with about 2700~2900 (Depending on ramp number) My first "holy cow" moment was at the edge of a bank on a lake. Bank, about 5ft high, steep, but the shape, "I'm scared what’s underneath". Top it off, a few trees, like a sled length past the crest of it. You get on the top, yer making a right turn, right now. Im not taking a run at it.

I circle out on the lake and come back dead-straight-on the bank, stop. 28~2900, I press throttle slowly, sled moves, squeeze throttle more and speed up the bank and I flop the sled on top, stopped. Holy cow, I look back at the guys and they are “YEAAAH! ! !” That was our only way back up outta that place. Boys follow me up to top of the hill and stop. Helmet off I said “holy sh}t I can’t believe I dint get stuck-as-fk there. I scooted right up that.

Now I know the trick for that bank. Approach the skirt, not trenching with too much engine rpm and try your best not to spin the track. I tractored right up it.

We 90% tree ride. I find with 2900 rpms or less, I’ve more confidence turning around in trees (plan B). For our snow type, low engine speeds crawling around seems keeping the sled on the snow, like it packs the snow instead of trenching, throwing the snow out. And when I need to givver, I can trench it if I want to make the turn faster and more sharp with skis in the air. In the end, I can say, Ive got more throttle control to make “Pro” moves in the trees. haha


When were in the trees and there's all these benches like 8 to 20 ft, I find with lower engine speed at part throttle, I have more time to think and keep moving at the same time, then pin-it up something and many times im like...."I can't believe i made that". Builds confidence very good.

Now, opposite of that; Ive customers in Quebec and Sweden who wanted higher engagement, like 3400+ for whatever they are doing. Ok, I send them an additional standard spring with 150(3400) or 170(36~3700) start and now they can fk around with engagement speeds to suit them.

 

[camyoung603]

Being new to clutching will I need to change weight when I change between primary spring. I like the idea of being able to creep around in the trees I just don't know how low is to low and are there drawbacks from having a lower engagement. I need olavs book lol

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

IF you got a kit of mine, then install the parts and apply the applicable pivot bolt weight for the elevation you ride at. When you ride at a major different elevation (say going from 5500 to 9500) you change the pivot weight out to the appropriate weight for the higher elevation. From the point of installing the kit, there is no changing of springs unless you want to specifically change the action of a thing done by the kit.

Cam) I just don't know how low is too low and are there drawbacks from having a lower engagement.
Joe) I dont know how low is too low either. That is up to you from going and driving the sled in the style and manner you normally drive. After you run the sled, then a question arises; is the engagement speed to low for "YOU", yes or no?

Cam) I need olavs book
Joe) No. Just go drive the sled and see if it produces a circumstance you consider a drawback or not. Aaen's book will guide one on what setting to change, IF a setting needs changing. [or in the case of my kit, i'll make a suggestion..he he]

 

[camyoung603]

I need Joe's book you done with that thing or what

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[camyoung603]

I got everything I need to make the change ill run it with the "base" kit and then throw on the red and see where I'm at. I've spent so many years riding a stock sled and changing the way I ride to make it work. I'm excited to make the sled work for me and I think this will be a awesome starting spot. Next step is setting up the suspension to work with the kit

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[BBP]

Is there a secondary change needed when running the lower engagement spring? If so, is there a separate kit setup for the lower engagement spring.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

Regarding my kits, I have a correlation of..
For 27~2900, & 30~3200 rpm engage,
If 2.5 lug, then 195/330 sec spring
If 3.0 lug, then 225/330 sec spring
If rider weight with gear over 270(ish), then 225/330 sec spring, regardless 2.5 or not.
I raise the start force to ensure the "rpm rise" will be satisfactory, matching the load when hammering the throttle.

A secondary spring change may be needed IF you have a condition needing one, or want the condition of it.

 

[BBP]

Kit parts

• 155/375 primary spring
  Pivot pin kit (w/steel spacers/Titanium and steel pivot bolts)
  225/330 Dalton yellow/orange secondary spring
  Helix

In the above kit, with all things being equal, If I change the primary spring to 100/XXX, won't the throttle response get sluggish?

 

[1709]

if you change your spring force to the 100/360 it will not feel sluggish, because the spring rate is higher then the 155/375 force.

 

[BBP]

if you change your spring force to the 100/360 it will not feel sluggish, because the spring rate is higher then the 155/375 force.

A 100 lb spring is going to have 55 lbs less spring force than a 155 lb spring, which will put more load on the engine. Will that make the throttle response sluggish without a secondary change?

 

[1709]

The first force number is engagement, meaning the 100 will engage the clutch sooner then the 155 force. the last force number is shift point. there is a difference between spring forces and a spring rate. the higher the spring rate the more responsive

 

[1709]

Now, this is from the "Man Joey" one of the gods of clutching.

Spring "Rate" & "Forces" - Definition
Here is my top pet peeve. When it comes to springs and their forces, I always hear or read the word "rate" when the word “Force” should be used. Here people describe a quantity of a spring and are not referring right to the element of the spring.
Rate is: the fixed ratio between two things.
In the case of a spring, rate is the quantity lbs measured per inch of change. You compress the spring it takes "x" amount lbs of force (per inch) to change the height of the spring. The starting point is the installed height and the finish point is the full compressed height. The installed height is at rest or the engagement or beginning of the shift. The full compressed height is at full shift.
Force is: the strength or energy exerted or brought to bear to hold something in position.
For example a 170-300 primary spring. The spring needs 170 lbs of force to keep it at installed height and must add enough force of up to 300 lbs to change its position to full compressed height..
***The spring does not have 170 lbs "rate" at the beginning of the shift.
The spring at installation is compressed 1.25" and requires 170 lbs of force to keep it that position.
The spring at full shift is compressed to 2.5" and requires 300 lbs of force to keep it that position.
To figure out the rate of the spring you do a simple calculation.
i] 300 lbs - 170 lbs = 130 lbs
ii] 2.5" - 1.25" = 1.25" of distance travel between engagement and full shift.
130 lbs / 1.25" distance = 104 lbs/inch of rate.
From installation height of 1.25" then you want to compress it just 1" more, you would have to add another 104 lbs on top of the 170 lbs to make the spring compressed to 2.25". To keep the spring compressed at 2.25" that would mean you did 170 + 104 = 274 lbs to keep it in that position.

 

[1709]

155 – 375 375 – 155 = 220 divided by 1.25 = 176 spring rate.


100 – 360 360 – 100 = 260 divided by 1.25 = 208 spring rate

 

[camyoung603]

Hey joe i know you run your sled with 19/53 gearing I just picked up a red spring and the gear set. How does the red spring work with that set up. When I messaged you I said that when I was in a sidehill picking a line and then wacked the gas the sled acted like a big turbo car super laggy then everything all at once and I was burried. I like to have that snap but I also like the idea of the early engagement throttle control. Will this combo be that.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk