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NEW FS start dates to riding????

Yup, it is public and should be open to everybody regardless of if it is an inconvenience to another user. If I want to go jeeping during hunting season, I have that right, even though I'd pass during that time . To me that's no different than sledding. So, yes if you don't want to share the forest with other users, go to the wilderness.

Not trying to start a fight man. They have dates for a reason. If you want to take that chance riding around when a bunch of guys (and no, not all of them are marksmen) slinging lead then that's your choice.

But like I said earlier the world doesn't rotate around a snowmobiler. Nor does it around anyone. But getting worked up because you can't go ride 15" of snow in October because the Forest Circus has a date set is just plain silly. The USFS regulates all mechanized vehicles, from bicycles to sleds. Yes the tree huggers get to use it all year. I don't care about that. It bothers me that they get an entire area to themselves but choose not to use it. These dates have been around for a while, it's just being brought to light now because we had early snow which normally doesn't happen. As a year round Forest user I have been dealing with it for years. Mostly on dirt because I choose not to ride snow until there is a fair amount of base. There are a lot of cool singletrack trails that I can't ride early spring because they split a migratory route. Those dates are for a reason, not put there to hate on sledders.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I consciously avoid the mountains during hunting season, but I have every right to be there as anybody else.
 
I understand the give and take situation with multiple users but for any one user to say that someone else can't use the land at any particualar time is BS. If it is proven that snowmobiles upset wildlife migration then that is one thing but a hunter saying that snowmobiles should stay on the road when there is ample snow is not ok in my opinion. That is the same as a x-country skier saying i can't be on the trail because it conflicts with their interests. No person has the right to say another person can't use public land because it affects their personal interest.

When do snowmobilers get to say that any other user can't be there?
 
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You need to work on your reading comprehension. I consciously avoid the mountains during hunting season, but I have every right to be there as anybody else.

I understand Dave. But the USFS has dates for a reason. And I seriously doubt that they are created to oppress a snowmobiler.

There is absolutely no reason to start getting nasty.
 
I understand the give and take situation with multiple users but for any one user to say that someone else can't use the land at any particualar time is BS. If it is proven that snowmobiles upset wildlife migration then that is one thing but a hunter saying that snowmobiles should stay on the road when there is ample snow is not ok in my opinion. That is the same as a x-country skier saying i can't be on the trail because it conflicts with their interests. No person has the right to say another person can't use public land because it affects their personal interest.

When do snowmobilers get to say that any other user can't be there?

It's not the hunters that are saying it. It is the USFS saying that you can't access the land on a sled until a certain date. They have those dates for a reason. One is to allow the animals to migrate to lower, less snow covered areas and the other is to allow hunters to have a better chance at filling their tags.

This is really not an attack on sledders, nor is it a hidden offensive from the tree huggers. These dates are part of a program for Wildlife Mitigation and Mgmt. That's it. Believe it or not, it's actually not a bad thing. Stop and think about it from more than one perspective. It's true that the USFS has been favoring the left as of late, but why the heck not? The left is giving them what they want. Sledders spend more time complaining about things and moaning about how lands are being made more restrictive, rather than actually doing something. Things will not change until personal rants on SW and any random social media site change into actual valid arguments at a meeting. Steven Marlenee is one of the few people I know that is taking the argument to them instead of just expressing the disdain online. I'm guilty of it just as most. I wish I had the time to do it. But my life won't allow it. So all I can do is donate money when I can.
 
Oh please, let the elk migrate at night then. I don't believe for a minute the game can't get to where they need to go because of the occasional sledder. An interstate in the way, sure, a sled trail...I don't think so. I mean if guys were on that trail 24/7 spaced a minute apart then maybe, but that's not how it is. Wildlife learn to adapt. In my mtn. subdivision they act like they have nothing to worry about, and they don't. Animals aren't stupid. Snowmobiles represent zero threat to them and they figure that out. Excepting the scumbags that hunt or harass them from the seat, and they are the rare exception, not the norm. $hit, they're more afraid of a human on skis than they are of a nasty exhaust spewer, from my personal experience.

As a hunter, I sympathize with that view point, but if your hunting that close to the trails, well....maybe your better days are behind you. Back in the day, I'd hunt miles from any trail or humans and i'd see GAME like nobody else. Getting a bull elk out of there on foot is a different story though, so I changed my tactics to hunting out of the bed of my pickup, like most lazy, old, fat hunters do. Much easier to get 500 pounds of meat in the truck that way. Tradeoff is you are going to have to deal with all the other forest users near those trails.

In this case, I say, if you want solitude during your hunt then park your pickup, put on a pack and walk 5 miles in any direction away from roads. Or get into horse or alpaca hunting. Same deal just makes it easier on your back.

Like a lot of guys, I tend not to ride until their is 4' or better of solid base and that rarely happens before December. Before that, you stand to much chance of wrecking your stuff and your body, but that's not my choice to make for someone else. I think the 12" reg is a little low, unless it's 12" of solid base and not just fluff from the night before.

In any case, having rideable snow this early is not a bad problem to have. Find a place it's legal to go off trail, or be vewy vewy careful.
 
I understand Dave. But the USFS has dates for a reason. And I seriously doubt that they are created to oppress a snowmobiler.

There is absolutely no reason to start getting nasty.

I totally disagree. I've been in discussion with the USFS in our area and there is a lot of confusion on how the dates are applied. I'm still trying to get translation on what vehicles this applies to. Like I said earlier, can we ride dirt bikes? Can we ride ATV's/UTV's and chained up trucks? Because in my experience this time of year, we almost always see some joker in his chained up truck stuck in the ditch tearing the terrain up. We always drive by hardly impacting the terrain. I believe this is a case where the USFS is trying to control something that doesn't need controlled. If there isn't enough snow, most sledders will know when they bend up their a-arms or bend up other parts.

We road ride to tune up our sleds and get into the groove for the season. The USFS should not stop us from riding the road. It's big government.
 
I understand the give and take situation with multiple users but for any one user to say that someone else can't use the land at any particualar time is BS. If it is proven that snowmobiles upset wildlife migration then that is one thing but a hunter saying that snowmobiles should stay on the road when there is ample snow is not ok in my opinion. That is the same as a x-country skier saying i can't be on the trail because it conflicts with their interests. No person has the right to say another person can't use public land because it affects their personal interest.

When do snowmobilers get to say that any other user can't be there?

I didn't say you CAN'T, I said you SHOULDN'T. That's just common courtesy.

If I were out deer hunting several miles from the nearest road and a snowmobile came blowing by me I'd be pretty upset and I'm a snowmobiler. How long would it take a non-snowmobiler to complain to the local forest service employee? How do you think restrictions were created against cross country travel for ATV's? Same way - complaints by other users. Keep irritating other users long enough and your rights will get taken away. We've seen it happen time and time again. We need to act responsibly and make sure that others around us do too or we will be reduced to riding the roads just like almost every state back east. Is that what you want? Do you want to stand on your soapbox and demand that you have the right to infringe on someone else? Really? Keep it up and your rights will be taken away. Keep in mind that we are NOT the most popular group in town and that the current administration would like nothing better than to remove you from the landscape altogether and then keep demanding that you can do whatever you want and see how far that gets us!

Better start learning to love those 4 stroke ditchbangers now if that's going to be the attitude.
 
I read this and hear a lot of good points. Both Cateye and Fitler have good points. There are some common courtesy points deep in this situation which "romantically" I wish would be handled within the outdoor motorsport user population. But, that may be wishful thinking.

What stands out regardless of all the good points..........Is the potential beginning of yet another poor precedent by the USFS. Let this precedent start and all hunters, ATV'ers, OSV's, Jeepers, Moto-X users will all be affected in some negative way. GIve them an inch and they'll take a mile! or many miles for that matter and miles turn into acres.......which turn into entire riding areas.

Once again, a positive thinking, big picture, unified front is what is needed.

WE ARE A BAND OF BROTHERS.......and sisters! :face-icon-small-win
 
Once again, a positive thinking, big picture, unified front is what is needed.

WE ARE A BAND OF BROTHERS.......and sisters! :face-icon-small-win

I totally agree with you!

Especially when it comes to brand of sleds! Give each other all the grief you want about what sled is the best but when it comes to presenting a unified front don't hate on somebody just because they don't ride the same brand as you. Or because they do or don't put their name on their sled or whatever the current argument is. So someone can't ride as good as you - big friggin' deal! There are too few of us against too many opponents to be hating on each other.

Our local club is made up mostly of Arctic Cat riders and sometimes riders who go on a ride with the club can certainly feel like they are outsiders or at least not part of the "in" group if they aren't riding a Cat. That is bad policy IMO.
 
What if a 24" rule was presented vs. the current 12" most places have in play?

Anyone who has had recent conversation with the USFS do you think this would be a viable option to supplant the "date window"?
 
I totally disagree. I've been in discussion with the USFS in our area and there is a lot of confusion on how the dates are applied. I'm still trying to get translation on what vehicles this applies to. Like I said earlier, can we ride dirt bikes? Can we ride ATV's/UTV's and chained up trucks? Because in my experience this time of year, we almost always see some joker in his chained up truck stuck in the ditch tearing the terrain up. We always drive by hardly impacting the terrain. I believe this is a case where the USFS is trying to control something that doesn't need controlled. If there isn't enough snow, most sledders will know when they bend up their a-arms or bend up other parts.

We road ride to tune up our sleds and get into the groove for the season. The USFS should not stop us from riding the road. It's big government.

IMO, road riding is fine. But it never fails, you can go up there and find tracks all over the place as soon as there is 15" of snow, not 15" of base. And with the current sleds 15" of powder is nothing. 10" of travel, 3" track. Yep, your gonna be flinging clumps of grass and mud. Those are the guys that deserve fines. Plain and simple. I'm not defending the USFS by any means. I think if there is snow for a sled and the trails are dry enough for a bike, respectively why can't you ride it. I think the dates are lame but waddya gonna do?
 
I talked to a fellow snowmobiler that works for the forest service, and he read an E-mail that he had got from work. As far as he can tell this only affects Medicean Bow and not Routt Natl. forest and he didn't know anything about Nov.23 as a start date (for Routt) all he said (as far as he knows) was 12" before you can ride off trail.
 
I didn't say you CAN'T, I said you SHOULDN'T. That's just common courtesy.

If I were out deer hunting several miles from the nearest road and a snowmobile came blowing by me I'd be pretty upset and I'm a snowmobiler. How long would it take a non-snowmobiler to complain to the local forest service employee? How do you think restrictions were created against cross country travel for ATV's? Same way - complaints by other users. Keep irritating other users long enough and your rights will get taken away. We've seen it happen time and time again. We need to act responsibly and make sure that others around us do too or we will be reduced to riding the roads just like almost every state back east. Is that what you want? Do you want to stand on your soapbox and demand that you have the right to infringe on someone else? Really? Keep it up and your rights will be taken away. Keep in mind that we are NOT the most popular group in town and that the current administration would like nothing better than to remove you from the landscape altogether and then keep demanding that you can do whatever you want and see how far that gets us!

Better start learning to love those 4 stroke ditchbangers now if that's going to be the attitude.

i do agree with some of your points. the one that stands out to me that i dont agree with is that you say "i don't have the right to infringe on someone else" ... yet, someone else can infringe on me? if i want to tear my sh*t up and ride why shouldn't I? i think it's cool we can discuss our opions here and all agree we need to stick together. i unfortunently don't think there is a answer that would make anybody 100% happy. i completely agree with Q that if you give an inch they'll take it all.... and not in a good way:face-icon-small-ton
 
These start and stop dates Are for the White River National Forest only, other areas have 15" or 12" rules but nothing like this. Also after nov. 23 if you drive a truck on these trails to get to snow line you will be fined 275$ because it is now winter vehicles only. They defined snow season and summer season and the vehicles that can be used in these seasons. Doesn't make any sense to me that you go shred a dirt bike but not a snowmobile right now. I would beware in other areas they will be doing the same thing in the future, it's already happening in the Snowy Range. It's time to come together and take our land back..
 
I didn't say you CAN'T, I said you SHOULDN'T. That's just common courtesy.

If I were out deer hunting several miles from the nearest road and a snowmobile came blowing by me I'd be pretty upset and I'm a snowmobiler. How long would it take a non-snowmobiler to complain to the local forest service employee? How do you think restrictions were created against cross country travel for ATV's? Same way - complaints by other users. Keep irritating other users long enough and your rights will get taken away. We've seen it happen time and time again. We need to act responsibly and make sure that others around us do too or we will be reduced to riding the roads just like almost every state back east. Is that what you want? Do you want to stand on your soapbox and demand that you have the right to infringe on someone else? Really? Keep it up and your rights will be taken away. Keep in mind that we are NOT the most popular group in town and that the current administration would like nothing better than to remove you from the landscape altogether and then keep demanding that you can do whatever you want and see how far that gets us!

Better start learning to love those 4 stroke ditchbangers now if that's going to be the attitude.

After reading my post i would like to mention that i wasn't trying to say that what PJ was saying was BS. It just gets so tiring having to constanly be defending our right to snowmobile. I know alot of people want to use the area and we should all respect each other. A few bad apples who may not even know what they are doing wrong end up runing it for the rest. I try to do what i can by keeping a low profile with a quite can and respecting others on the trail by slowing down or going well around them. I don't belive in personal interest setting the rules. My interest are not more important then yours and yours aren't more important then mine. Thats all. Looks like alot of people will be up on RE this weekend so lets all RESPECT each other and the other users. Be safe and have fun.
 
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I was up on the Grand Mesa last weekend just for a couple quick runs on the road to test out the sled before we get a good snowfall. Didn't even have the sled unloaded before the Sheriff showed up. All he did was ask me what i was doing and then started talking about how he was an avid rider and how many sleds he has and how much snow has fallen so far. Super nice guy. Did my few passes on the road to make sure the sled was good to go and loaded up and left. Personally I would wait for more snow anyways. Id hate to hit a rock now before getting any real ridding in.
 
The Colorado Snowmobile Association sent out an email blast yesterday to all members to make sure and check the rules in the area before they take off and go riding so somebody clued them in that something's up. Maybe we need to start a list on here somewhere of all the national forests and what the rules are.
 
The whole thing is BS, the FS could give 2 $hits about wildlife or any of its users. The only thing they care about is revenue. This is just another way to create revenue. What better way than to go after anything recreational cause we have all demonstrated we will pay stupid amounts of money to go have a little fun. This is not saying its illegal to ride its simply saying you have to pay a little more to use the land this time of year. Its nothing like getting caught riding in wilderness. I totally disagree with the BS that they are concerned about the hunters or the animals for that matter. I am a hunter and my personal opinion is that if anyone truly cared about the animals (elk and deer) they would regulate the tags they give out and not allow them to be hunted 4 months out of the year. Again all they care about is the money they generate from tags. You cant expect any animal to properly migrate when they are getting shot at for 4 months out of the year. DOW makes up BS numbers of herds to get people to buy more tags. Sound like any other sale pitch yet? F the Government all they want is our money. Glad we can all agree that there is no difference between a chained up 4wheeler tearing things up vs a snowmobile. Or a 4 wheeler that was to lazy to walk half a mile and decided to make its own trail so they didn't have to pack the meat. I generally don't road hunt and where I hunt it is not possible to get any vehicle there without 3 foot of snow so either way I could care less what the rule is. Its just another added expense these days. Eventually none of us will be able to afford the things we love so they will get their way eventually
 
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