Man am i glad i had a ABS bag!!!!

[carguy]

Glad you made it through.
I wasn't there and hindsight will always be different than making a decision at the moment. The outcome was that a life was spared and your loved ones get to keep you around longer and won't doubt you spending the $$ on a pack.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[J-Roc]

First of all, WOW! Glad you're okay! That's an amazing story, and, to me, all that matters is that we didn't lose another one.

To all the people on here that are *****ing.... Get a hobby. Everyone has done things that may not have been the smartest or wisest at the time. It happens. Be glad that we didn't lose another fellow sledder this season!

Ride safe guys!

 

[pano-dude]

Pano-dude,
I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make or I didn't communicate very well. My point of saying it's an hour into highpointing when a slope avalanches is to make the point that just because there are tracks on the hill does not mean it's safe. It can be the first, tenth, or twentieth run up the hill.
When an avalanche is moving, the bigger objects tend to stay on the surface until it slows down. Many riders caught in avalanches have stayed on the surface(away from their sleds) and felt they were safe(and did not deploy their ABS packs), but at the last moment when the avalanche slowed down they got sucked under(this is when your weight takes over and you sink into the snow). Check out the ABS dvd, it's very good and accurate.
If an avalanche airbag pack is deployed you have about a 98% chance of being on the surface or having the bags visible. These statistics are from actual avalanche accidents.
The idea of "Ditch the gear if skiing, get away from the sled", is not always true. Sometimes if you get caught on skis and your head is downhill, you can swing your skis around to a downhill position and get back on your feet. If you are caught in an avalanche with nonreleasable bindings, you tend to get buried deeper and sustain greater leg injuries. I would suggest staying on the snowmobile for as long as you can. The newer sleds have the flotation and power to stay on top of an avalanche and get out to the side. Use the power and flotation to your advantage to try to escape.
Your idea of "Only way to be safe is to check the snowpack, if any doubts stay off". I wish it were that easy. If you do a stability test and then do another one 20' away, you can get very different results. This is due to spatial variability in the snowpack. Avalanches are not 100% predictable. How many times has it happened this year where a ski area bombed a slope, determined it was stable and then opened it up to skiing only to have it avalanche? I recommend stability tests, but also treat any slope as if it would slide. Around 80% of the fatalities happen at the rating of considerable and below. Everyone has different levels of risk they are willing to take, not everyone is willing to wait until the danger level is low to ride. 90% of the accidents are "people problems" not stability analysis problems. I wish everyone would alter their riding according to the danger. Avalanche education is changing all the time as more is learned about avalanches. If you have any questions, please email me and I'll try to answer them. Mike Duffy

Thanks point taken,
there is lots of opinions on "what to do". All circumstances are different and need to be dealt with in whatever way is best at that time. I will stick with the advice I've been given.

The problem I see is riders not taking the advice of the pros. All snow reports are identifying many weak layers this year, and people are still pushing the limit with all the new heavy snow on top.

I guess it's human nature to disregard official info. It happens with Fires and floods when people are told to get out but they figure they can "ride it out"
next thing ya know... they're calling for help risking the search and rescue people.

 

[Rye23]

i was also in an avalanch a few weeks ago. I didn't have a pack on and got flung off the sled 3/4 ways up the mountain by a wall of snow that came over a rock ledge. I was tossed clear from the sled and started tumbling. I didn't have a pack at the time, and i know i would have had enough time to pull the corde because i was actually thinking it while tumbling. There is a lot of things going through your mind let me tell ya! its like time stands still for a moment. I experience the exact same as what was described in the above post. I was tumbled around ontop of the slide but as soon as i started slowing down i began to get pulled under. You know its kinda hard for me to imagine that an ABS bag would keep me up with the suction that i felt! but i got one anyways and should have had one. I think of it as more of a big red flag that your group can clearly see part of so they can get to you quick.

Just my experience anyways

 

[RGM]

WTF does time have to do with anything? could be the first guy who cuts the slab, could be the tenth nobody knows. To say it takes an hr of riding to cause a slide is out there.

A slab is like water when it's running, heavy items sink. I'm not sure where ABS gets their info from but the courses I've been in say ditch the gear if skiing, get away from the sled. The reason the bags stay up is air volume creates bouyancy.

The only way to be safe is to check the snow pack, if any doubts stay off. Live to ride another day. Words told by the guides I know.

Mike knows his stuff and I would agree with everything he said in his last post

 

[articCatz]

actually no - the reason airbags work is due to the gradient theory. Shake a bag of chips - the small ones end up at the bottom, big ones at the top. Density doesn't play into it (too much anyways). Similar to the reason why a lot of the time a sled is on the surface while the rider is below.

 

[ZRman31]

awesome man! glad to see you are still here!

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I find it amazing guys will drop 10-12k on a sled, a few thousands on mods and gear, but then figure the abs bags are too expensive.....sure they are not cheap but neither is your life.....If you play in the mountains, buy an abs bag, if not for you then for your family.....and if you never have to use it, then life is good......

 

[rmk-rider]

I find it amazing guys will drop 10-12k on a sled, a few thousands on mods and gear, but then figure the abs bags are too expensive.....sure they are not cheap but neither is your life.....If you play in the mountains, buy an abs bag, if not for you then for your family.....and if you never have to use it, then life is good......

X^2 for that statement. I second that for sure.

 

[frntflp]

It is very discouraging to see guys who have responded to this thread in a manner that says they either don't truely understand how an avalanche works, or how an air bag can increase your odds of survival.

I was caught in an avalanche two years ago east of Togwotee Mtn Lodge. I triggered the avalanche, was caught in the slide and so was a very good friend of mine. We did not own ABS bags at that time. His beacon was at home on the work bench. Thankfully, we both have and continue to ride to see another day. I am not proud or pleased with the choices I made that day, but very thankful to learn from it and help others to learn in the hopes that less and less people will ever get caught. My responses below are based on knowing what it really feels like -

There are questions above about how the ABS bags work and what happens - when you pull the cord and the bags deploy, they make you (your body, your gear and the bags) one of the largest "things' tumbling down the hill. The larger you are, the better the chance that you will stay at the top and come out on top at the bottom. MIke Duffy stated that it may help to hang onto the sled - it makes you bigger yet. But you also risk getting hit by it.

I understand the idea that an ABS bag makes you "float" like in the water but that is misleading as snow is not a liquid. Bouyancy (sp?) doesn't apply when there isn't water in liquid form.

Bright orange color is a big flag, making you easier to find when the dust settles.

Do you have time to pull the cord ? YES !! I had plenty of time to realize that I was moving, but not under my own power (i.e. my feet were still realtive to the snow pack). I had time to think "most people get hurt when they hit solid objects, and I'm heading for the trees" I tumbled for quite some time after that. More than enough time to pull that trigger 10 times over. Plenty concious during the whole slide.

When I stopped with the top of my helmet and one arm out of the snow - more snow kept coming down, but not enough to bury me. Somewhere I smashed my knuckle against something, but that was the extent of it - a sore hand.

Up to this point, I managed nothing more than a wild ride. That's when the real horror starts. While stuck in the snow, but very aware of what was going on around me - I had to listen to my buddies father, brothers and freinds call out his name, unable to see where he went. He was buried. Fortunately, a local guide was close buy and came to help. But after he foudn out that my buddy didn't have a beacon, he asked how many had probes ? 3 out of 8 had them. I was one, but still stuck in the snow and my sled 1/4 mile away (not in the slide). The guide found my buddy with his probe within 20 feet of his sled (one ski was sticking out of the snow) He was buried 2 feet down, under an 8 in diameter tree that the slide took out. He went unconcious just before he was uncovered. He regained conciousness quickly and had a cracked collar bone and a gash on the back of his head. That's it.

Many lessons learned but here are the most important with regards to equipment that all should think about -

Beacons, probes, shovels & ABS packs. Know how to use them. Never go out without them. Pack them in the right places (read on).

When I sell ABS packs at snow shows, I see people ask about and watch as they put their shovel in the ABS pack. I ask if they have a second shovel on the sled - "no, it's right here in the ABS pack". Think about it, when you get stuck on the side of a hill, to get the shovel, you remove the pack - that pack can't help you survive if it isn't attached to you correctly. So keep your shovel on your sled. Same for the probe. Don't ever take off the pack until you are on ground that won't slide and you aren't below a slide area (in the run out path).

Want to go all out? Bring a second probe and shovel for someone in the group who didn't think to bring theirs. Then you don't have to listed to the expert ask "who has probes", knowing they will help find your buddy - but no one has them.

"Here's to having the right gear and knowing how to use it". Don't wait until you are caught in a slide to be convinced like I was. You may not get a second chance.

For those that have been caught - we don't have anything cool to talk about - but we do have a story that can be used to scare/encourage others into making better decisions. Thanks for listening/sharing.

Finally - I intentionally left out snow conditions in order to maintain focus on the equipment side.

 

[hymark860]

Glad you made it. I was in a avalanche last Sunday. Scary shyt.

 

[cowboysedge]

frntflp, great info. I only have a question. Say you have your shovel and probe on you sled. An avy hits you and your riding partner. Your avy pack does its job and you are ok but your friend, his sled, and your sled is buried. How do you get your partner dug out?

I was talking to Mike Duffy today about the tunnel bags made for carring your shovels and probes. We were talking about this and the concerns for not having the gear on your person.

I told Mike that I wanted one of the tunnel bags so that I could carry a shovel and probe on the sled as well as a shovel and probe in my pack.

Just a thought. Jeff

 

[snowww1]

Clear up a few things

Let me clear up a few things:

Pano-dude: I agree all situations are different. Many times it's a judgment call in a split second. There are a lot of opinions on what to do if caught. I look at what has worked for those who have survived. Much has to do with what part of the avalanche you are caught in. A heli- ski guide in Canada has spent quite a bit of time researching guides who have been caught and what has worked for them to survive. Many posts on this forum have expressed what has worked and we can all learn from other rider's experiences. I agree with you that many people are not checking the avalanche reports and not altering their riding according to the danger. How many riders actually carry all the gear and have taken an avalanche class? Beacons are used by about 50% of riders and I would guess only about 25%-30% of riders have taken a class.

frntflip: My stating to hang onto the sled, was not to be bigger, but to power out of the avalanche if possible while you are on top of it. It's a judgment call based on many different factors and all situations are different. You'll see plenty of videos on this sight where riders have sidehilled out of slides or driven over the top of a moving slide. It's worth a try depending on where you are and what the circumstances are. Once you are caught up in it, get away from the sled. One of the reasons is that you don't want to get caught between the sled and a tree. As far as the snow being liquid, they have measured the temperatures in some avalanches at over 100 degrees due to the friction. The snow almost turns into a liquid state in some avalanches and many times will act very close to a liquid. This explains how it filters into everything, even water proof switches on sleds.

How ABS works,Directly from the ABS dvd.

"Each avalanche consists of individual rotating snow crystals. Smaller crystals creep below the larger crystals forcing them upwards, so it's the avalanche itself that repeatedly forces the skier upwards, but as the avalanche slows down and comes to a standstill the buoyancy force drops. Due to their greater density the skier cannot remain on the surface and sinks back down."
"Density of the skier is much higher than the density of powder snow." To be able to float on the snow, the skier needs half as much volume again. For a 250 pound person another 150 liters of volume is needed to float or reduce burial depth.


Yes, the only time you should have a shovel and probe on your sled is when you have an abs pack and already have a shovel and probe in the abs pack. Don't take off the abs pack in avalanche terrain or in runout areas to get at the shovel and probe.. You still want a shovel and probe in your abs pack in case your sled gets buried. I understood your post as this is what you tell people at shows.

I've looked through over 150 ABS avalanche reports and have looked at the statistics. They work. 98% chance of being on the surface or having the bags visible on the surface when they are deployed. About 5% of the people will not deploy the pack. About 25% of all people killed in avalanches die from trauma. Some studies have showed that a lower percentage snowmobilers die from trauma in one state than skiers or snowboarders. Is it because of better helmets and that many of us wear chest protectors?? Digging takes the longest time in an avalanche rescue. If someone is buried 3' under, you need to move on average about 1500-2000 pounds of snow. Most people carry too small of a shovel. Most people only practice with their beacon one hour a year.

Don't take more risk just because you have an avalanche airbag pack. You still do not want to get caught in an avalanche.

Hope this helps clear up a few of my statements. Mike Duffy

 

[pano-dude]

Mike knows his stuff and I would agree with everything he said in his last post

I did some research.... you are correct

I made the arguement because of info I was given by the instructor at my last course.

Thanks for the info, lesson learned.

 

[tundra twin track]

MIke Duffy stated that it may help to hang onto the sled - it makes you bigger yet. But you also risk getting hit by it.

I was knocked out when my face got slammed into the bars and my foot was injured hitting the sled in the slide last spring,would have been better off bailing off the sled the second after I deployed my ABS but I was very happy with end result that the bag kept me from being buried.Very good point on having a second shovel & prope on the sled!


Have a safe WINTER!