m1000 or m8t

[RKT]

I know plenty of N/A guys that go turbo hunting in Colorado. From what I have seen very few turbo's run to thier potential because guys dont know how to tune them. Every now and then there seems to be one that runs okay.
In my opinion you can truly only compare sled's at places where tuner's bring there A game like fairview or sanctioned drags.

Just seeing a turbo out in the woods and saying I waxed it doesnt mean much if the owner can't tune it or ride.

YUP.. that is the truth.. Same goes for the BB crowd..

Sanctioned events? winning a race does not prove ANYTHING about the HP of the sled.. racing is racing and there are FAR too many players in that game.. The better set-up LOWER HP sled can usually win a drag race against the higher HP, not set up well, sled..

IMO.. Hill pulling, deep powder pulls where you can not get to the top of the hill, will show which engine is producing the most power.. but, you are 100% correct, they BOTH have to be running to their full potential, the tracks must be very close to equal in length and size also because the deeper lugged track and the better designed track will always make a higher mark on the hill when you have two sleds that are close in power..

So, many factors in play in ANY comparisions.. That is why I said MY findings are NOT conclusive.. But, hey, you can only go by what you experience..

Kelsey

 

[PistonBroke]

I am a little confused with the question you are asking..

I think we all know how a turbo compensates.. BOOST.. But, just having the turbo attached to the exhaust does NOT keep it from losing the same power due to elevation..

The ATM pressure is LOWER at elevation so with a turbo you can compensate via boost pressure BUT the starting power of the engine is STILL diminished due to the elevation. so the HP will be DOWN just like it would with the N/A engine... So a 100HP at sea-level may be 70HP at 10K and yes that same 100HP engine is still 70HP at elevation EVEN with a turbo kit installed... at zero boost.. Once spooled.... Power increases... No secret there.

I think there is this "Idea" that as soon as the turbo spools, that you are making power ABOVE and BEYOND the sea level HP of the engine.. This is where the confusion lies.. Yes, as soon as the turbo spools..You are making HP above and beyond the ELEVATION HP of the engine.. NOT the sea-level HP.

Turbos allow you to COMPENSATE for this lower pressure.. but the they do no negate the laws of Physics by automatically removing the losses due to elevation.

Kelsey

What I don't get is why bother talking about a turbo sled that's not making boost? They all make boost, turning the thin air up there into sea level air, then adding gravy on top of that in the form of positive manifold pressure. Yes, it works the exahust pressure a bit harder and it's not purely linear, but who cares? The beauty of the turbo is the freedom from elevation related power loss.

 

[RKT]

What I don't get is why bother talking about a turbo sled that's not making boost?

I apologize for not communicating well with writing..

I will try and answer the question you asked me.

I am not talking about turbos with no boost.. What I am talking about is the reference HP of the turbo sled at elevation .. The claim was made that a M10 at 5psi boost will make 250HP at ELEVATION (I assume 8-10K elevation because that is where the sled resides most of the time...)
That would be more than DOUBLE the actual HP that engine is producing at 10Kft all on 5 PSI.... I just do not feel this is possible.. That's all... Of course, I could be mistaken..

From the people I speak with, there is the conception that the turbo engine does NOT lose HP at elevation.. This is truely a mis-conception. The turbo engine has the ABILITY to regain power lost from elevation.. BUT.. this is ALL relative to the boost pressure. The power gained on boost is not above the sea level HP but, rather the elevation power.. So, there is a difference.

Hope this made some sense

Kelsey

 

[WyoBoy1000]

So are you saying if you have a rkt m1000 puting out 220hp at sea level and then nock of 30%(just as a reference) at 10,000ft = 156hp then you take a tm1000 that without boost is 165hp and at 10,000 ft is 116hp is your starting point. Then you add
boost to bring it up to the 156hp.

 

[FCR112]

I am a little confused with the question you are asking..

I think we all know how a turbo compensates.. BOOST.. But, just having the turbo attached to the exhaust does NOT keep it from losing the same power due to elevation..

The ATM pressure is LOWER at elevation so with a turbo you can compensate via boost pressure BUT the starting power of the engine is STILL diminished due to the elevation. so the HP will be DOWN just like it would with the N/A engine... So a 100HP at sea-level may be 70HP at 10K and yes that same 100HP engine is still 70HP at elevation EVEN with a turbo kit installed... at zero boost.. Once spooled.... Power increases... No secret there.

I think there is this "Idea" that as soon as the turbo spools, that you are making power ABOVE and BEYOND the sea level HP of the engine.. This is where the confusion lies.. Yes, as soon as the turbo spools..You are making HP above and beyond the ELEVATION HP of the engine.. NOT the sea-level HP.

Turbos allow you to COMPENSATE for this lower pressure.. but the they do no negate the laws of Physics by automatically removing the losses due to elevation.

Kelsey

Kelsey,
This is a GREAT explaination and I agree that people get very confused when they hear about a motor making "sea level horse power at elevation with boost." You are spot on and the words above make sense.

This is the exact reason turbo's have been used in aircraft to make greater power at elevation for so many years. They use the turbo trying to get BACK to sea level performance #'s at high altitude. Smashing a bunch of air into the intake side making the motor perform like it's at a lower altitude where the air is thicker. Same deal for sleds...

BTW I rode the MPM/RKT M10 referred to earlier in this thread... One Bad *** machine you guys both did excellent work on it...

 

[gus bohne]

I only want to clarifythis for all.

The ONLY CORRECT method of DYNAMOMETER testing at any altitude to determine what the engine is REALLY making on that day, at that particular altitude is OBSERVED TESTING> No airtemp, barometer humidity or altitude inputs to the computer at all !!!!!

NO nothing ....JUST read the numbers it is putting THROUGH the strain and rpm inputs.

ANY factors will correct to sea level densitys, and thats NOT correct.

ABOVE all else DO NOT input intake air temps as this will drive power output numbers up absurdly wrong !

You will see EXACTLY what the engine makes and that is what you are clutching to.

PS.
The dyno will NOT slip on the crank without WELDING itself to the crank..
If it does slip then your clutchs do the same too..LOL

 

[BIG JOHN]

So are you saying if you have a rkt m1000 puting out 220hp at sea level and then nock of 30%(just as a reference) at 10,000ft = 156hp then you take a tm1000 that without boost is 165hp and at 10,000 ft is 116hp is your starting point. Then you add
boost to bring it up to the 156hp.

In laymens terms...5 psi HP in MN. does not equal 5 psi HP at 9000'...you get 5 psi worth of HP at all elevations (roughly)...but the motor itself LOST 9000' worth of elevation HP to start with...capiche'

I talked to Glenn Hall last winter about turbos and clutching for elevation (since he races low/high elevations)...he said its EASY...LOL...just turn the boost UP so the low elevation clutching works up high!!!-BJ

 

[WyoBoy1000]

In laymens terms...5 psi HP in MN. does not equal 5 psi HP at 9000'...you get 5 psi worth of HP at all elevations (roughly)...but the motor itself LOST 9000' worth of elevation HP to start with...capiche'

I talked to Glenn Hall last winter about turbos and clutching for elevation (since he races low/high elevations)...he said its EASY...LOL...just turn the boost UP so the low elevation clutching works up high!!!-BJ

I get it, but there are some here that aren't making sense of this concept( at least it seems that way) I just put it into different words

 

[BIG JOHN]

I get it, but there are some here that aren't making sense of this concept( at least it seems that way) I just put it into different words

I know you get... I was adding to your post to make it even easier for some to understand...BJ

 

[mod03rmk800]

I was under the assumption that the higher you go in elevation with the turbo as well as an n/a sled that the lower the octane requirements become. So if a pgturbo is running say 7# of boost at say 5000', wouldn't the same sled be able to turn the boost higher at 10000' gaining a higher hp yield at elevation over the n/a sled which may only be able to put a higher compression head and tighter pipes which may take away cylinder volume and possibly limit the amount of thin air and fuel the sled can digest compared to 5000', obtaining much less of a gain?
I have nothing but speculation in these matters, and turboing myself this year.
But with a lot of researching I did on turbos the only way I see a n/a 1000 let alone 860 running with a pg 800/1000turbo at anything above 7000', is the turbo riders/builders either messed up the motor/clutching or forgot to turn up the boost with the rise in altitude. Feel free to educate me with my thinking.

 

[Sparx]

What's the approximate boost you would have to run on a TM8 or TM10 at elevation to make up for losses say @ 6-7000ft? I would just like to know a referrence that I would have to push 10lbs boost at 7000ft to make the same hp at sea level with 5lbs boost.... Or do you simply have to make up the barometric pressure difference and that's it?

I was always under the impression before that 10psi is 10psi wether at elevation or sea level and the only thing that changed was that the rpm of the turbo had to increase to make the same increase in pressure at elevation. So basically if you were making the same boost at either elevation it was the same power. Was I really that far off?

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Its tricky and diff turbo makers make diff power.

 

[BIG JOHN]

What's the approximate boost you would have to run on a TM8 or TM10 at elevation to make up for losses say @ 6-7000ft? I would just like to know a referrence that I would have to push 10lbs boost at 7000ft to make the same hp at sea level with 5lbs boost.... Or do you simply have to make up the barometric pressure difference and that's it?

I was always under the impression before that 10psi is 10psi wether at elevation or sea level and the only thing that changed was that the rpm of the turbo had to increase to make the same increase in pressure at elevation. So basically if you were making the same boost at either elevation it was the same power. Was I really that far off?

re read post #67...BJ

 

[Sparx]

So gathering from that post, as long as you have the octane to run the boost at low elevation, you crank it up at high elevation to make up for the loss and shouldn't have to raise your octane any higher for the same HP, but higher boost levels?

Only problem is, how do you know what PSI of boost to run at elevation to make up for the loss?

Obviously if you run 50/50 at elevation you will definitely need to run close to 100% race at sea level for the same given power?

 

[diamonddave]

Is this the drop in kit?.....if so, you are the sucker for not reading the last 500 threads about this "burn down kit"....if its the BB kit, well i guess it is what it is....im guessing most other BB packagers dont refund much

C,mon Hatch, everyone knows those 500 threads were all lies!!

Back to the topic, im keeping my T8 cuz the T1000 shakes like a jack hammer, yes a pump 1K will hang with the race 8 all day...

Is anyone running a race gas T-1000?? What is/are the reasons that I only hear/see only the pump gas version at this time?

 

[lightening800]

i choose tm1000 on pump fuel as opposed to tm8 on race fuel, both are fun sleds but in the long run the tm1000 will be cheaper to run and if wanted will make more power than a 8 will. i run a 09 tm8 race turbo and the race fuel gets old after a while..lol just my02

 

[product tester]

almost everyone that has bought the m1000 kit has been a race gas kit they ride them on pg and get used to the pull then once they turn it up it stays there. I have had 5 m1000 turbos the last 2 I put 1200 kits on I ran the first 09 I had on pump fuel for 500 miles the sold it the guy I sold it to put another 600 on it and did not touch a thing. all of my race gas kits now come with the ability to run from 4 to 18#s with out changing parts just turn the boost knob and adjusting fuel... sence last aug there are 47 m1000 twisted turbos out there. This next year there will be 2 xs that many.

 

[diamonddave]

almost everyone that has bought the m1000 kit has been a race gas kit they ride them on pg and get used to the pull then once they turn it up it stays there. I have had 5 m1000 turbos the last 2 I put 1200 kits on I ran the first 09 I had on pump fuel for 500 miles the sold it the guy I sold it to put another 600 on it and did not touch a thing. all of my race gas kits now come with the ability to run from 4 to 18#s with out changing parts just turn the boost knob and adjusting fuel... sence last aug there are 47 m1000 twisted turbos out there. This next year there will be 2 xs that many.

Thanks, that makes sense. Someone had told me that there weren't many RGT 1000's, something about the motor not liking higher boost? I guess that was incorrect!!

 

[product tester]

I believe the 1000 is more boost freindly than any thing out there.

 

[BIG JOHN]

I believe the 1000 is more boost freindly than any thing out there.

I believe that is a TRUE statement...

I know I'm a DOO guy...BUT if I ever did a Cat it would be a twisted M1000...the big cylinders need a little help filling the big holes LOL...BJ