m1000 or m8t

[Vertical-Extreme]

I'm going to have to call BS on that. I love our turbo M8, & will probably get another one next year (without that silly long 153 on it though), but I also run with a N/A 1000 that will wipe the floor with most turbos & regualarly does so (MPMINC's sled) There is absolutely no way that thing is only 15-20 hp over stock. I'll admit some of the similar sleds I've ridden with have a lot done to them, but they're well beyond the hp that you're stating & dollar amount they're probably still similar or below a turbo.

I have never ridden a TT PG 1000 so I can't say SH** about them & by no means will I say something negative, maybe they're really head & shoulders above what everything out there has going, but from what I've seen Kelsey's statement is correct or very close.
that said I'd LOVE to get on a TT pg1000, sounds like it'd be well worth the $$$. I'd love to not have to run race gas!

If you have an 09 race gas turbo M8 that gets walked on by a N/A M1000 there is something wrong, no matter whose kit it is...they should not even be close if you have your clutching and fuel right

 

[Puddy Tat]

Heck Turbo the 1000 and turbo the 7 and you can have both and use the 7 as the backup sled......

 

[vdog0531]

Heck Turbo the 1000 and turbo the 7 and you can have both and us the 7 as the backup sled......

 

[backcountryislife]

If you have an 09 race gas turbo M8 that gets walked on by a N/A M1000 there is something wrong, no matter whose kit it is...they should not even be close if you have your clutching and fuel right

Maybe the 1000's you're comparing to are the ones not set up right???


We actually haven't run our Tm8 against that particular sled (Brian didn't ride much toward the end of the season, but I have personally seen, as have a number of people on here (who probably have the sense to talk about something else during the summer) that particular M1000 walk on a bunch of them. It wasn't one random incident, he goes looking for them!

This isn't a rant saying that turbos are junk, or that every N/A sled will stomp on them quite the opposite, but more to the point that Kelsey isn't blowing smoke in his statement that a PROPERLY ported M1000 can run with them. Also disagreeing with the idea that the best you will do is 15-20hp over stock with N/A. Everyone who has a living to make on here has a biased view to an extent (Kelsey or Shain) but when the facts get distorted they need to be corrected.

I'm simply saying that it IS true to a limited extent & I HAVE seen it a number of times.

btw, this is at 10,000+ not flat land.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

from what I've seen the right pg m8 isn't going to get beat by a na sled in cooke city, maybe at lower elevation but I doubt it. Never seen a m7 turbo run so I don't know how it would do.

Compare a 09 to an 09, turbo vs NA. the 09 sleds are so much better I think if you had a pg 07 m8 and a heavily modded 09 m1000 the m1000 could take it just because of weight and the track, I'm talking about taking two sleds with the same setup except for the motor.

 

[RKT]

Maybe the 1000's you're comparing to are the ones not set up right???


We actually haven't run our Tm8 against that particular sled (Brian didn't ride much toward the end of the season, but I have personally seen, as have a number of people on here (who probably have the sense to talk about something else during the summer) that particular M1000 walk on a bunch of them. It wasn't one random incident, he goes looking for them!

This isn't a rant saying that turbos are junk, or that every N/A sled will stomp on them quite the opposite, but more to the point that Kelsey isn't blowing smoke in his statement that a PROPERLY ported M1000 can run with them. Also disagreeing with the idea that the best you will do is 15-20hp over stock with N/A. Everyone who has a living to make on here has a biased view to an extent (Kelsey or Shain) but when the facts get distorted they need to be corrected.

I'm simply saying that it IS true to a limited extent & I HAVE seen it a number of times.

btw, this is at 10,000+ not flat land.

Kaleb..

Thanks for posting facts vs. speculation

It is true.. The M10, Kaleb is referencing is the MPM/RKT M10 I am talking about.. This sled is no longer in our possession nor MPM's.. it has been sold! but, it will still be around.. This was a 2007 M10 With RKT/MPM ported cylinders, RKT Head, RKT Clutch kit, MPM case work, many other MPM tweeks, SW single pipe (we tested all the twins on this sled and the single, surprisingly, worked better from 8000ft and higher.. This sled runs on 91 octane and runs like mad!! MPM and RKT have done many like this and they all run similar.. We have tested against PLENTY of PUMP GAS M8/Dragon Turbos and the M10 is ALWAYS out front as is the 860R. This M10 has also been known to handle quite a few TApex's running some good boost...

The PGM10 turbo is a great running machine and at 5PSI boost would be a good match for the M10 N/A.. The 800 class turbo sleds will ALL need race gas or a mix to compete with this M10..

The bottom line is.. ALL turbo sleds lose the SAME HP at elevation as the N/A sleds.. I do not understand why this is so hard to understand.. Think about it.. Unless the turbo is spooled.. it is a N/A sled.. If everybody could just install a turbo on the end of their pipe and not have power loss at elevation, We would all be doing it..

So, UNTIL the boost is coming.. the turbo M10 is at the same or even a bit less power at 10,000ft as the stocker M10.. So, lets assume 165HP on a stock M10.. Let's also assume a 30% loss at 10Kft (I think it is less but we will do 30% because most think that is the case) So 165 x .7 = 115.5HP at 10Kft.. So call it 116HP.

So, BOTH the turbo M10 and the stock M10 are at 116HP at 10kFt.. Now, at 5PSI there have been claims of 250HP so 250-116 = 134HP GAIN.. Hmmmm Is this really possible?? IMO, Not a chance..

So, the idea that ANY TURBO can gain 134HP on 5PSI boost IMO, is not conceivable.. Heck, even 80HP on 5PSI would be a miracle..

But to more than double the HP with 5PSI would be quite a feat.. I THINK the reasoning is that at atmospheric (14.7PSI) boost pressure you can essentially double the HP of the engine.. So, at sea level.. the 165HP at 14.7PSI becomes 330HP.. This is theory , reality could be less or more.

Ya see.. HP per pound of boost is NOT linear.. meaning.. the power increase exponentially not linearly.. So, if you make 100Hp with 10 PSI boost. 1 PSI would NOT be 10HP or even close to it.. it would be closer to 1-2HP (guess).

It takes BIG BOOST to make BIG Power and to run BIG BOOST you need BIG OCTANE... and 91 octane is NOT BIG OCTANE .. Simple as that.. 116 octane IS BIG OCTANE!!

Having said all that.. the M10 at 5PSI is very impressive!! There is some lag but it is a nice set-up.. but what it is NOT is a 250HP or even a 200HP set-up.. more like 160HP. But 160HP compared to 116HP is an absolute A$$ Whoopin!!

M10's at 10PSI would be closer to 200 + HP and would be sick!!

It takes over 9PSI for an M8 to out-run with my 860 at 9000ft and my 860 can not hang with the M10's we build..

I ride with a guy with a Brad Story M8 at 10PSI and he has me covered on my 860. . but , he can not run pump gas..

I am sure there will still be people calling BS on all this. But Physics is Physics and the laws of Physics can not be changed..

Kaleb and Knzee has first hand experience with GREAT running N/A sleds against PG turbos.. And they are in agreement.. In fact, Kaleb owns a race gas turbo.. so, he is not biased in any way shape or form..
I also have similar experiences. I called out quite a few Dragon and M8 PG turbos this year with both my 860 and my M7-M8BB. Got a few takers and faired very well.. And we are NOT doing drag races (the N/A Sled always wins with this) we are doing Deep powder hill pulls.. This is where the turbos really shine!
So, again, the facts are their.. to speculate based on NO EXPERIENCE is not really a valid comparision..

Also, as we all know, ALL turbos do not run the same.. Some run much better than others.. So, it would stand to reason, that the same applies to the big bores.. agreed? So, just because you saw Brand X's BB run do not assume that all run like this.. Same goes for my comparisons against the turbos.. I surely have NOT compared against all of them.. just a few different kits.. So, my findings are not conclusive either..

Hopefully, this thread can stay on topic and the personal attacks and bashing will not prevail.. But, I suspect not..

Kelsey

 

[drinkwyo]

^^^^^

I sit here trying to hold back from saying anything negative about the statement above, but I just changed my mind. I think I have just decided, I feel sorry for this guy RKT, and the reasoning behind my descision is because he has no ****ing clue as to what he is rambling on about. He is truely LOST

Kelsey, are you telling everybody on this forum that owns a pump gas turbo, that they have spent 7-10K on a turbo kit to get 1-2 HP per PSI of boost? Does that mean they spent 7-10K to get 10 to 15 more HP?

My friend, you are digging yourself a GIANT hole with these "KELSEY KNOWS BEST" comments. I tell ya what. I'll race you. Same terms that you threw at Slim. You bring your little 1000 and I will bring my little pump gas 20 hp extra turbo. Fair enough.

OH, and 1 more thing. Better bring the title to my new 1000

 

[JHG]

No bashing intended but we have a mobile dyno here in town that does testing in the canyon(at 8500'+) almost every weekend. Their finding on hp/# of boost are not linear but they are well above 1 or 2 hp for the first few lbs of boost. I have watched great running 1000's do very well but take a n/a and turbo to the crazy's where the hills are looooong pulls and the two are in a dead heat about a third of the way up then the turbo starts pulling away as the n/a sled loses track speed.

The other side of all this and I guess not really related but everyone keeps talking about 91 octane. I understand the desire to run inexpensive fuel but if you are putting thousands in to a sled to make it faster and climb higher, are you really to cheap to spend the extra 10 or 15 bucks a tank on at least run av gas or 50/50 race. I guess I just don't see why you would leave that much power on the table when the cost is that minimal after spending a ton of money on the sled. There are other advantages to a turbo over an N/A sled. Like the ability to turn the boost up after reaching a higher altitude.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I like the pg because its cheap. And the fact that you can buy it any where. I also think I would rarely need more power than a pg m1000.

Actually what I have works so until my riding buddy's get more power or I find new riding buddies I'm having plenty of fun, and the budgets tight right now to. The snow is still a ways off though.

I think Kelsey and Shain both know there chit and doubt they are straight up lying, and when they say one sled beat the other I believe them. I would like to see in person or a video of a rkt m1000 against a TTpg m1000.

Shain a while back you said you got 205hp on 4.5lbs at 4,300ft, has that changed. 250hp?

Kelsey where is the rkt m1000 located now.

 

[mtn_extreme]

Am I thinking wrong here?

A naturally aspired motor uses the natural flow of air to atomize with the fuel where as a forced induction system add more fuel to forced air to be atomized as well as forces it into the cylinder as opposed to a natural flow.

"Unless the turbo is spooled.. it is a N/A sled"

Ok, but the boost on my sled comes on at about 1800 rpm's which is so close to idle speed that I cannot feel any lag on spooling up. When the turbo starts spinning it is no longer a natural flow so is it no longer a naturally aspired process. Seems to me that your going to gain in the fact that you are no longer naturally aspired AND your going to gain from the force pushing into the cylinders.

If this is so, would it not be possible that the forced atomization eliminates the reduction of hp with altitude allowing you maintain hp numbers that you would have at sea level, and the force into the piston attributes to the horsepower increase above that?

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Dano702]

When my sled is at idle , the blow off valve is wide open . I can put my hand next to it and feel air rushing out . Not only does it not have lag but it feels 5 times crisper on the bottom end .


I dont know how a N/A sled would even have a chance . At 12 lbs my old 8 is alot of fun . I cant wait to ride the TM1000 at 12 lbs. I will never ride a N/A sled again , i think they are lame now.

 

[Lucky Lyle]

I like the pg because its cheap. And the fact that you can buy it any where. I also think I would rarely need more power than a pg m1000.

Actually what I have works so until my riding buddy's get more power or I find new riding buddies I'm having plenty of fun, and the budgets tight right now to. The snow is still a ways off though.

I think Kelsey and Shain both know there chit and doubt they are straight up lying, and when they say one sled beat the other I believe them. I would like to see in person or a video of a rkt m1000 against a TTpg m1000.

Shain a while back you said you got 205hp on 4.5lbs at 4,300ft, has that changed. 250hp?

Kelsey where is the rkt m1000 located now.

4.5 #s we gained 85 hp over 119 we started withso ya 204 hp at 4300 ft with no corrections.
if ya do the corrections for sea level you would start with 168 + 85 =253.

kelsey what do you say your 1000 makes at 10000 ft?
on the same dyno session turned it up to 8.5 #s thats were the dyno would slip it read 285 before we slipped it.
Fyi we have had a m1000 on the dyno for almost a year straight.

 

[product tester]

so Kelsey are you telling me that you can get 225 hp out of a na m 1000 but it is impossible for me to get 250.
we sould probably start a new thread and leave this poor guys thread alone

 

[RKT]

so Kelsey are you telling me that you can get 225 hp out of a na m 1000 but it is impossible for me to get 250.
we sould probably start a new thread and leave this poor guys thread alone

ya know, Shain, there is no use TWISTING words around..

the M10 is capable of 220HP +-(5HP) at SEA LEVEL.. That is what we can do..

There is no frekin way anyones na 1000 will climb in powder with anything turbo on pg that I have out there they might hang for 200 ft but after that it is all over. and as far as comparing to m1000 pg turbo there is none.

I have already did this comparision (several times)... and with all due respect.. our finding have been much different.

the pg 1000 will make 250 hp at 4 # of boost no problem..oh thats at elavation.

Why are comparing my sea level numbers to your elevation numbers?? Apples to oranges...

I gave you credit about how the PG M10 runs.. It runs very well.. Nice job..

NOBODY is saying they do not run well.. But the ones I have seen (yes, yours and other kits..) are not at 200HP, let alone 250HP at 9K ft on 4PSI..

At sea level.. I am sure this may be possible.. but that is not what you are claiming.

But the fact is: You have NEVER seen one of my M10's run.. Yet, you seem to have all the "goods" on the the A$$ whoopin you layed on it..

Afterall.. all this is just talk.. Now isn't it??
My set-ups have changed since our last meet and I am sure yours have also.. But a PGM8 (2007-2009) does have its hands full with the 860XP at 9K ft.. This is just the reality of it..

You are right about one thing.. the M10's run WAY better than the M8's on boost..

Keep up the R&D and good work and I will try and do the same.. Like I said, the M10, in question, has been sold.. so, no use comparing it anymore, and it was de-tuned a bit before selling it for the rider's safety.. But you know we ride 3-4 days a week and you know where we ride.. You are always welcome to come on up if you ever want to compare.. Always a good time WHENEVER we are snowmobiling..

Kelsey

 

[PistonBroke]

The bottom line is.. ALL turbo sleds lose the SAME HP at elevation as the N/A sleds.. I do not understand why this is so hard to understand.. Think about it.. Unless the turbo is spooled.. it is a N/A sled.. If everybody could just install a turbo on the end of their pipe and not have power loss at elevation, We would all be doing it..

You wanna try this one again Kelsey? With boost, you can achieve sea level air pressure + boost pressure at elevation, therefore no effective pressure loss. Keep in mind that the best kits these days compensate for elevation...

 

[backcountryislife]

Kelsey, are you telling everybody on this forum that owns a pump gas turbo, that they have spent 7-10K on a turbo kit to get 1-2 HP per PSI of boost? Does that mean they spent 7-10K to get 10 to 15 more HP?

You accuse Kelsey of not being able to do math, but you can't READ!

He explained that--- "HP per pound of boost is NOT linear.. meaning.. the power increase exponentially not linearly.. So, if you make 100Hp with 10 PSI boost. 1 PSI would NOT be 10HP"

A turbo making 1 lb of boost is doing nearly nothing, but obviously as you turn it up it changes everything.

what the F part of that says that a sled with 10 psi makes 10-20 hp? READ.

For god sake, we all went & got turbos & we want to justify that 6000 bucks so we tell ourselves & everyone that will listen that no N/A sled can EVER compare.

I will probably keep buying turbos, they're a blast to ride, but are they the ONLY way to go? F NO! Are they the cheapest way to make power, definatey not.

I love the fact that our cutler RG T kicks *** & doesn't need to be touched, I hear the same thing about Shain's kits, SUPER reliable, but it is possible to compare without them.


btw, Shain he was comparing power at altitude, I don't think anyone ever has said that a N/A sled makes 225 up high, NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

 

[WyoBoy1000]

New thread http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158676

 

[RKT]

You wanna try this one again Kelsey? With boost, you can achieve sea level air pressure + boost pressure at elevation, therefore no effective pressure loss. Keep in mind that the best kits these days compensate for elevation...

I am a little confused with the question you are asking..

I think we all know how a turbo compensates.. BOOST.. But, just having the turbo attached to the exhaust does NOT keep it from losing the same power due to elevation..

The ATM pressure is LOWER at elevation so with a turbo you can compensate via boost pressure BUT the starting power of the engine is STILL diminished due to the elevation. so the HP will be DOWN just like it would with the N/A engine... So a 100HP at sea-level may be 70HP at 10K and yes that same 100HP engine is still 70HP at elevation EVEN with a turbo kit installed... at zero boost.. Once spooled.... Power increases... No secret there.

I think there is this "Idea" that as soon as the turbo spools, that you are making power ABOVE and BEYOND the sea level HP of the engine.. This is where the confusion lies.. Yes, as soon as the turbo spools..You are making HP above and beyond the ELEVATION HP of the engine.. NOT the sea-level HP.

Turbos allow you to COMPENSATE for this lower pressure.. but the they do no negate the laws of Physics by automatically removing the losses due to elevation.

Kelsey

 

[Jimmy]

Maybe the 1000's you're comparing to are the ones not set up right???


We actually haven't run our Tm8 against that particular sled (Brian didn't ride much toward the end of the season, but I have personally seen, as have a number of people on here (who probably have the sense to talk about something else during the summer) that particular M1000 walk on a bunch of them. It wasn't one random incident, he goes looking for them!

This isn't a rant saying that turbos are junk, or that every N/A sled will stomp on them quite the opposite, but more to the point that Kelsey isn't blowing smoke in his statement that a PROPERLY ported M1000 can run with them. Also disagreeing with the idea that the best you will do is 15-20hp over stock with N/A. Everyone who has a living to make on here has a biased view to an extent (Kelsey or Shain) but when the facts get distorted they need to be corrected.

I'm simply saying that it IS true to a limited extent & I HAVE seen it a number of times.

btw, this is at 10,000+ not flat land.

I know plenty of N/A guys that go turbo hunting in Colorado. From what I have seen very few turbo's run to thier potential because guys dont know how to tune them. Every now and then there seems to be one that runs okay.
In my opinion you can truly only compare sled's at places where tuner's bring there A game like fairview or sanctioned drags.

Just seeing a turbo out in the woods and saying I waxed it doesnt mean much if the owner can't tune it or ride.

 

[backcountryislife]

I know plenty of N/A guys that go turbo hunting in Colorado. From what I have seen very few turbo's run to thier potential because guys dont know how to tune them. Every now and then there seems to be one that runs okay.
In my opinion you can truly only compare sled's at places where tuner's bring there A game like fairview or sanctioned drags.

Just seeing a turbo out in the woods and saying I waxed it doesnt mean much if the owner can't tune it or ride.

I can definately see that.
I have said for a while that a PG8 is a joke, but so many people disagree with me, there must beat least two of them that actually run (ok, maybe 5!).

Do you see the turbos being harder to tune than an N/A sled? From my experience it seems to be the other way around. I know with mine being set up by Zollingers, maybe it's set up different, but they usually run it at much lower elevation than where I ride. It seemed much easier to hit the sweet spot than my n/a sleds.

My only point is that how close the sled is to it's potential seems to be a common problem, turbo or not. Many of us no tuner types don't have the patience to squeeze the last 10% from a machine, I know I don't!!!