Great thread!!!!!!!.........^^^^^^^Now theres a thought out quality post..lol
Let's Stop The Selfishness!!!!
- Thread starter Bighairybeast
- Start date
Great thread!!!!!!!.........^^^^^^^Now theres a thought out quality post..lol
M
Mcx Nytro
Well-known member
Now that is smart. Carry a picture of your gal,kids,best friend with you to remind you of what you would be giving up for a few moments of risky fun. I am in no way dissing those who have died nor their families. An example of what I am talking about happened in owls head where one guy triggered an avy that killed his friend and none had any avy gear, in fact I think 25-30 of those who came to help also had to stay on the sidelines because on no avy gear.Accidents are one thing but foolishness is another.My condolences to those who have died,accident or not, and to the families left behind
Your goal??
Sometimes I read these types of threads just for something to read. I don't think I've replied to any, but lately there seems to be an overload of people pushing their beliefs and opinions on everyone else. So I'll reply and await the red dots ( whatever those mean).
Just curious what the goal is of the author of this thread and the rest of the bunch spouting off their opinions?
I think the goal is to convince others to live life how they live it. Hmmm.....Seems a bit "selfish" to me. Why is it when some people get married one or both spouses wants to change the way the other one lives? I see nothing wrong with a person changing the way they live because they WANT to. But I know what I'd tell the spouse if she EXPECTED me to change.
I, and the group I ride with, try to hillclimb cautiously. Sometimes we'll say " The person that made that sidehill mark was pretty stupid". But we don't go up to them and force our opinions on them. Don't feel it's our place to do that.
Firecat162..... I agree. Death is part of life. It sucks, and it hurts when someone you love dies. But what should we do? Miss out on a lot of exciting things in life just so we can live old enough to have the younger people change our diapers?? Not Me!
Sometimes I read these types of threads just for something to read. I don't think I've replied to any, but lately there seems to be an overload of people pushing their beliefs and opinions on everyone else. So I'll reply and await the red dots ( whatever those mean).
Just curious what the goal is of the author of this thread and the rest of the bunch spouting off their opinions?
I think the goal is to convince others to live life how they live it. Hmmm.....Seems a bit "selfish" to me. Why is it when some people get married one or both spouses wants to change the way the other one lives? I see nothing wrong with a person changing the way they live because they WANT to. But I know what I'd tell the spouse if she EXPECTED me to change.
I, and the group I ride with, try to hillclimb cautiously. Sometimes we'll say " The person that made that sidehill mark was pretty stupid". But we don't go up to them and force our opinions on them. Don't feel it's our place to do that.
Firecat162..... I agree. Death is part of life. It sucks, and it hurts when someone you love dies. But what should we do? Miss out on a lot of exciting things in life just so we can live old enough to have the younger people change our diapers?? Not Me!
H
HighMark Adventures
Well-known member
Well I fully expect to get seriously flamed on here but here goes. I can`t write as "purdy"as some of you so iI might come off a bit abrasive.
Yes this year has been a bad year for avalanches in the pacific northwest. But you know what avalanches are an issue every year in the back country just not this year alone. Trail riding is not for me and I enjoy riding the steep and deep. Every time I go out I know there is the possibility I could not return. Its not that I take stupid chances, its just part of the sport. I have all of the saftey gear, took the avy course, pay attention all winter long to what the weather has been doing etc etc. I do all I can do to be safe.
About my loved ones and yes I have a wife two kids and a third on the way. I know my sport is dangerous so I have life insurance and other things set up so in the chance something bad happened they would be taken care of. I know its not the same as having me being there but its something. My wife hates the fact that I do this but she also understands that its my only real vice and she would never ask me to stop doing something I truly enjoy. She knows the risk involved.
I feel and its it just my feelings but if you stop doing stuff because your afraid of what impact it will have on others then your dead inside anyway.
If I went out and was told that if you climb that hill its 100% going to avalanche and you will die.Then I obviously would not climb it. But we all know thats not how it works. We can`t control mother nature and she will always win. BAck country snowmobiling, skiing, snowboarding etc is a dangerous sport no two ways about it but I would not give it up on any account.
The comments about people dieing doing what they love. If cought in an avy I doubt they are thier lying thinking to themselves saying I`m dying doing what I love. Thats just dumb, but I do know guys who have been buried in an Avy and it did not stop them from snowmobiling.
My point is none of us would knowingly go climb something we new 100% would avy , we can never be 100% sure what will avy so what do you do? Stay home and live in a bubble? Maybe for some but not for me.
Just my honest feelings on the subject but feel free to flame me for sharing them.
Yes this year has been a bad year for avalanches in the pacific northwest. But you know what avalanches are an issue every year in the back country just not this year alone. Trail riding is not for me and I enjoy riding the steep and deep. Every time I go out I know there is the possibility I could not return. Its not that I take stupid chances, its just part of the sport. I have all of the saftey gear, took the avy course, pay attention all winter long to what the weather has been doing etc etc. I do all I can do to be safe.
About my loved ones and yes I have a wife two kids and a third on the way. I know my sport is dangerous so I have life insurance and other things set up so in the chance something bad happened they would be taken care of. I know its not the same as having me being there but its something. My wife hates the fact that I do this but she also understands that its my only real vice and she would never ask me to stop doing something I truly enjoy. She knows the risk involved.
I feel and its it just my feelings but if you stop doing stuff because your afraid of what impact it will have on others then your dead inside anyway.
If I went out and was told that if you climb that hill its 100% going to avalanche and you will die.Then I obviously would not climb it. But we all know thats not how it works. We can`t control mother nature and she will always win. BAck country snowmobiling, skiing, snowboarding etc is a dangerous sport no two ways about it but I would not give it up on any account.
The comments about people dieing doing what they love. If cought in an avy I doubt they are thier lying thinking to themselves saying I`m dying doing what I love. Thats just dumb, but I do know guys who have been buried in an Avy and it did not stop them from snowmobiling.
My point is none of us would knowingly go climb something we new 100% would avy , we can never be 100% sure what will avy so what do you do? Stay home and live in a bubble? Maybe for some but not for me.
Just my honest feelings on the subject but feel free to flame me for sharing them.
B
Bubba700
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Having been around for a few years and seeing enough of these threads, and especially the ones that are started by OT, I would guess that the intention is to help open some peoples eyes to what they are putting on the line. Most guys don't think about all of the people that are or would be affected if they were to die in an avy. I can tell you from first had experience that the #'s that feel the effects of even one avy death is astounding. From the group that the rider is with, other riders that come to help, S&R, family, friends, co-workers, etc. You start to get the point of the # of people that feel the effects. And all of them feel something negative for years to come due to the desire to prove that you can get ten more feet up a slope, or show that your sled can climb something it shouldn't be on. We always hear guys say, "well its my choice," well ya know if you are that selfish to not see that your choices affect other people you must be pretty damn clueless about life.
The best is to then hear guys also say like ^^^^^^(not at hardkore but the one above) I'm not going to miss out or change my way cause it might kill. Well I call BS. When the roads get bad I would put a benjamin on the fact that you slow down . So why should sledding be any different?
The best is to then hear guys also say like ^^^^^^(not at hardkore but the one above) I'm not going to miss out or change my way cause it might kill. Well I call BS. When the roads get bad I would put a benjamin on the fact that you slow down . So why should sledding be any different?
Fly,
What is my goal? I'm not saying never climb hills and I am by no means telling people not to sled when avy conditions are elevated. I just wonder why people must climb when conditions are this bad. Is your own personal adrenaline rush more important than your family back home? (Remember as I said, being dead is easy. The hard part is dealing with the death of a loved one for many years after) If you think this out and feel that conditions on a given slope are suitable for climbing (based on your own training and the reports by the professionals) by all means climb one at a time with friends parked safely out of the way! This way it is a calculated risk.
From the moment we are born we are dying. Every activity we do involves some level of risk; but life would be pretty stale spent on a couch waiting for cardiovascular disease to kick in. I know most of our families are aware of the risks associated with sledding but I assume most accept them knowing that when we come home we will be grinning from ear to ear! But how hard do you think it is for your family to know that you died either from being lack of training or choosing to ignore the conditions of the day. Some deaths this year resulted from unfortunate situations with a snowpack that is worse and normal and as a result people were caught of guard with areas that slid and the extent of the slides. Others were caused by lack of education and the rest were riders that just couldn't resist putting their toy to the test.
So Fly, why do you feel you are missing out on the exciting things in life by not climbing? I love to climb but some of my best days have been in the trees and meadows. I happen to be able to ride from my door so maybe its easier for me to realize that there will be better days to hit the hills; rather than having to drive for eight hours for a weekend trip only to have conditions hamper my rush.
And Fly, you are not getting red from me. It sounds as if your group analyzes the situation before deciding whether or not to hit the hills. As for me being selfish by pushing my beliefs on others; I disagree. As someone who treats Mother Earth as my higher power (believe in what I see in front of me, not a religion) I think its unfortunate that lives are lost, but they are not the ones suffering. It is the ones left behind that I worry about and I don't see how that can be selfish.
What is my goal? I'm not saying never climb hills and I am by no means telling people not to sled when avy conditions are elevated. I just wonder why people must climb when conditions are this bad. Is your own personal adrenaline rush more important than your family back home? (Remember as I said, being dead is easy. The hard part is dealing with the death of a loved one for many years after) If you think this out and feel that conditions on a given slope are suitable for climbing (based on your own training and the reports by the professionals) by all means climb one at a time with friends parked safely out of the way! This way it is a calculated risk.
From the moment we are born we are dying. Every activity we do involves some level of risk; but life would be pretty stale spent on a couch waiting for cardiovascular disease to kick in. I know most of our families are aware of the risks associated with sledding but I assume most accept them knowing that when we come home we will be grinning from ear to ear! But how hard do you think it is for your family to know that you died either from being lack of training or choosing to ignore the conditions of the day. Some deaths this year resulted from unfortunate situations with a snowpack that is worse and normal and as a result people were caught of guard with areas that slid and the extent of the slides. Others were caused by lack of education and the rest were riders that just couldn't resist putting their toy to the test.
So Fly, why do you feel you are missing out on the exciting things in life by not climbing? I love to climb but some of my best days have been in the trees and meadows. I happen to be able to ride from my door so maybe its easier for me to realize that there will be better days to hit the hills; rather than having to drive for eight hours for a weekend trip only to have conditions hamper my rush.
And Fly, you are not getting red from me. It sounds as if your group analyzes the situation before deciding whether or not to hit the hills. As for me being selfish by pushing my beliefs on others; I disagree. As someone who treats Mother Earth as my higher power (believe in what I see in front of me, not a religion) I think its unfortunate that lives are lost, but they are not the ones suffering. It is the ones left behind that I worry about and I don't see how that can be selfish.
BHB..... I totally agree it's better to take calculated risks than it is to just blindly and ignorantly attempt things. I, as well as the guys I ride with, usually stay away from the hills during elevated avy danger. Like you, we opt for the trees and meadows and have a blast. I think we are on the same page as far as that goes.
I'm just saying that everyone has there own scale of risk/consequences/importance of life etc.. For you to condemn those who want to risk their life in ways that we choose not to is definately your right. But I just don't think it is yours or my place to do that.
Just as an example of how peoples' view on risk differ and how it may affect you:
Let's say that a loved one felt that snowmobiling is too dangerous to do because it is very possible 2 sledders are road racing in your direction when you are innocently and responsibly cruising down a trail. Like the rest of us, you would probably feel that loved one is being overly cautious. And if that loved one called you irresponsible for doing that, it would probably not go over well. ( I'm assuming, this, I may be wrong). It is kind of a bad analogy because the risk factor is way higher with highmarking. I'm just trying to make a point about how people have different views on what is risky and what isn't.
The biggest point I think we dissagree on, though, is consequences. I just want to point out that not everyone feels the need to live their life to accomidate others. My entire life, my mom was quite over protective. Yes, I'm very glad she cared and loved me enough to be protective. However, if I wouldn't have done things anyway, I would have missed out on downhill skiiing, racing BMX bikes, riding motorcycles etc.. I could have died doing any of the exciting things I have enjoyed but it would have been better (for me) than just trying to be safe and not living a fun filled life.
All I'm trying to say is that even though your intentions are good, I think it is up to individuals to decide the risks they take. There's nothing wrong with educating people on the dangers of things. Some people (myself included) need to be hit over the head with reality sometimes. But to tell them they are wrong for not placing the same values on life as you do just seems a bit harsh.
I'm just saying that everyone has there own scale of risk/consequences/importance of life etc.. For you to condemn those who want to risk their life in ways that we choose not to is definately your right. But I just don't think it is yours or my place to do that.
Just as an example of how peoples' view on risk differ and how it may affect you:
Let's say that a loved one felt that snowmobiling is too dangerous to do because it is very possible 2 sledders are road racing in your direction when you are innocently and responsibly cruising down a trail. Like the rest of us, you would probably feel that loved one is being overly cautious. And if that loved one called you irresponsible for doing that, it would probably not go over well. ( I'm assuming, this, I may be wrong). It is kind of a bad analogy because the risk factor is way higher with highmarking. I'm just trying to make a point about how people have different views on what is risky and what isn't.
The biggest point I think we dissagree on, though, is consequences. I just want to point out that not everyone feels the need to live their life to accomidate others. My entire life, my mom was quite over protective. Yes, I'm very glad she cared and loved me enough to be protective. However, if I wouldn't have done things anyway, I would have missed out on downhill skiiing, racing BMX bikes, riding motorcycles etc.. I could have died doing any of the exciting things I have enjoyed but it would have been better (for me) than just trying to be safe and not living a fun filled life.
All I'm trying to say is that even though your intentions are good, I think it is up to individuals to decide the risks they take. There's nothing wrong with educating people on the dangers of things. Some people (myself included) need to be hit over the head with reality sometimes. But to tell them they are wrong for not placing the same values on life as you do just seems a bit harsh.
S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
selfish?.thats just wrong imo.
M
Mcx Nytro
Well-known member
Fly: I think we are not talking about the risks to your own life(altho if you do have a significant other,it is TOTALLY selfish NOT to take into consideration their feelings). It is fine and dandy to enjoy life. You mentioned racing,what do you think of the street racing going on. On the coast(vancouver) innocent people have been mowed down by people just having fun, living life on the edge,to the full...I agree that if you take risks that endanger YOUR life and you end up suffering the consequences, okay. But I think what we are getting at here is the loved ones left behind are the ones who pay, for more than just a moment, it can go on for years. I have lost 2 good friends due to avy's One was because he refused to stop and buy batteries for his beacon, after all we were only going for a half day ride. We tried to get him to stop.......2 minutes...but he didn't. His first pull was his last,as he could not be found for 45 minutes, and all we drove home was a body. I think a REAL friend would speak up and tell his friend...DON'T do it. It has nothing to do with ones right to do as he pleases,it's not harsh to tell them we are scared for their lives. To me it seems like the loving thing to do. Maybe I am a little more sensitive to this because of losing 2 riding buddies, but I do agree it IS selfish to do whatever we want and to he!! with the consequences. Just imagine your riding partners riding home after YOU were killed in an avy, the hours of guilt because they did not INSIST on the sensible course, they were worried but never spoke up. That guilt NEVER goes away and every time this subject comes up it starts all over again . I hope you take this the way it is intended. To die in an accident is one thing, to die because we were stupid...is another thing entirely...Terry
M
MTdream
Well-known member
great thread, and great cross post...
living life to its fullest is NOT the topic at hand...however...too few people think (get ready $.50 word) circumspectly...that is they dont think how their actions impact others...
hitting that hill not only impacts you...
First ones impacted...the buddies who have to dig you out...
Search and Rescue- Who has to come get you out...and risk their lives...
Whomever has to tell your wife/mother etc.
The impact to your wife
The impact to your parents
The impact to your siblings
How is your (if your married) wife going to get along without you?
How are your kids going to deal with not having a father?
Your actions impact others, and unfortunately too few people think how their actions impact others...Most just think they are "living for the moment" "Living in the now"
living life to its fullest is NOT the topic at hand...however...too few people think (get ready $.50 word) circumspectly...that is they dont think how their actions impact others...
hitting that hill not only impacts you...
First ones impacted...the buddies who have to dig you out...
Search and Rescue- Who has to come get you out...and risk their lives...
Whomever has to tell your wife/mother etc.
The impact to your wife
The impact to your parents
The impact to your siblings
How is your (if your married) wife going to get along without you?
How are your kids going to deal with not having a father?
Your actions impact others, and unfortunately too few people think how their actions impact others...Most just think they are "living for the moment" "Living in the now"
Genisus Revolation
There is a begining and a end to everything we see on this earth. What is surtan is that we will all die. When? has already been decided.
I dont know what risk is to big or or to small. What I do believe is we all will have a eternal Life beyond this one. Hell or Heaven. So if you know where you are going, why fear it ?
I have my personal Risk limitations but if I impose those on everyone it is called Socialism. which is coming soon enough.
No Fear
There is a begining and a end to everything we see on this earth. What is surtan is that we will all die. When? has already been decided.
I dont know what risk is to big or or to small. What I do believe is we all will have a eternal Life beyond this one. Hell or Heaven. So if you know where you are going, why fear it ?
I have my personal Risk limitations but if I impose those on everyone it is called Socialism. which is coming soon enough.
No Fear
M
Mcx Nytro
Well-known member
You could put your theory to the test and just walk across a 4 lane highway if your hit and die well it was your time or you could CHOOSE not to and live...predestination is silly....The second group that came to rescue those in sparwood had no CHOICE but to go over and help???Life and the consequences are made up of the CHOICES we make. If we were predestined nothing we would or could do would make any difference...Don't think so..02
B
Bubba700
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Very well put MT, was what I was trying to say but apparently finals has scrambled my brain a bit.
MCX thanks for that, kept me from doing. His argument is so unsound its not even funny.
C
cobbycat
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Now that is smart. Carry a picture of your gal,kids,best friend with you to remind you of what you would be giving up for a few moments of risky fun. I am in no way dissing those who have died nor their families. An example of what I am talking about happened in owls head where one guy triggered an avy that killed his friend and none had any avy gear, in fact I think 25-30 of those who came to help also had to stay on the sidelines because on no avy gear.Accidents are one thing but foolishness is another.My condolences to those who have died,accident or not, and to the families left behind
I was there at the slide at Owlshead, first one even, and I was floored when I finally looked up and saw all the people on the sidelines. at least 25-35 people sitting on the sidelines. I remember that day very clearly, it was high avy conditions, not very many hills had tracks on them, and one group decided (guessed) to hillclimb a hill with no tracks. my group had passed on the hill it happened on not 15 minutes earlier. the people on the sidelines wanted to help but could not due to lack of equipment, most didn't have beacons, much less probes or shovels. even had to send Matts (guy who died, rip) buddy that caused the slide out due to having no gear and the threat of another avy. could you imagine not being able to help your buddy that you burried? even a lot of the guys that had beacons had to share our shovels and probes. this lack of gear and training by almost half of the people there scarred the crap out of me. I would like to thank all who had gear and training for the great effort.
point is these guys had no clue about what they were doing, and Matt paid with his life. Matts wife and child will pay for all time.
why then
where did I say go out and be Stupid? I dont think the intention of those who died this year was to die. They were living that moment in time to there fullest.
Why buy a street bike that go's 200 MPH if your not going to use it to its full potential?
Why buy a pupose built 1000cc Sled if you are not going to use it to its full potential?
Why shouldnt my 3yr old ride a bike?
Why buy a gun not to shoot?
I have my opinions on these questions, but I will not impose them on others.
That would be Socialism. Whats good for me, may be bad for you.
I am not a calvanist. I believe you can chose Heaven or Hell but your birth and Death was decided from the begining of time.
where did I say go out and be Stupid? I dont think the intention of those who died this year was to die. They were living that moment in time to there fullest.
Why buy a street bike that go's 200 MPH if your not going to use it to its full potential?
Why buy a pupose built 1000cc Sled if you are not going to use it to its full potential?
Why shouldnt my 3yr old ride a bike?
Why buy a gun not to shoot?
I have my opinions on these questions, but I will not impose them on others.
That would be Socialism. Whats good for me, may be bad for you.
I am not a calvanist. I believe you can chose Heaven or Hell but your birth and Death was decided from the begining of time.
excellent discussion
There are very valid points from both sides of the discussion. It's good to see it remain civilized
Poacher, I definately don't agree with your view on "when your time is up" theory (just my opinion), but I can see how it is sort of relative to your point. I do think it could take this thread off on a tangent of religion, though, so I won't comment any further on that! lol
McX, Mtdream and the others with the same view, I can see your point. I totally agree that if you are a friend or loved one of someone who dies, (pretty much no matter what the cause is), it hurts extremely bad.
Someone (I can't see the screen name while typing this) asked my view on street racing and how innocent people get killed etc... I'm not going to lie and say I don't do stupid stuff from time to time. But I usually don't condone actions that have a high possibility of killing someone else. The older I get, the more conservative I get. I think it happens to most people.
Anyway, the topic was about people who put themselves at risk while having no regard for the feelings of loved ones left behind.
Can you guys see both sides having valid points? I can. Obviously, I lean towards the idea that 1. death is part of life 2.if someone wants to risk their life doing fun things, it should be their choice.
BUT..... I would have to also say that:
If you have people depending on you financially, it would be responsible of you to get life insurance, have a good handle on your financial situation, etc.
Ask your riding partners if they are ok with you climbing, jumping or whatever. If they know the risk and are ok with it, then great. If they are uncomfortable with it, don't do it. You have choices on who you ride with. If it bothers you that your friends are more conservative than you, I'd suggest finding riders that fit your style. I don't do this everytime I climb and neither do they. But we try to, and I think it is the respectful thing to do.
Ok...enough rambling for me today! Someone elses' turn to type till their fingers fall off
There are very valid points from both sides of the discussion. It's good to see it remain civilized
Poacher, I definately don't agree with your view on "when your time is up" theory (just my opinion), but I can see how it is sort of relative to your point. I do think it could take this thread off on a tangent of religion, though, so I won't comment any further on that! lol
McX, Mtdream and the others with the same view, I can see your point. I totally agree that if you are a friend or loved one of someone who dies, (pretty much no matter what the cause is), it hurts extremely bad.
Someone (I can't see the screen name while typing this) asked my view on street racing and how innocent people get killed etc... I'm not going to lie and say I don't do stupid stuff from time to time. But I usually don't condone actions that have a high possibility of killing someone else. The older I get, the more conservative I get. I think it happens to most people.
Anyway, the topic was about people who put themselves at risk while having no regard for the feelings of loved ones left behind.
Can you guys see both sides having valid points? I can. Obviously, I lean towards the idea that 1. death is part of life 2.if someone wants to risk their life doing fun things, it should be their choice.
BUT..... I would have to also say that:
If you have people depending on you financially, it would be responsible of you to get life insurance, have a good handle on your financial situation, etc.
Ask your riding partners if they are ok with you climbing, jumping or whatever. If they know the risk and are ok with it, then great. If they are uncomfortable with it, don't do it. You have choices on who you ride with. If it bothers you that your friends are more conservative than you, I'd suggest finding riders that fit your style. I don't do this everytime I climb and neither do they. But we try to, and I think it is the respectful thing to do.
Ok...enough rambling for me today! Someone elses' turn to type till their fingers fall off
M
Mcx Nytro
Well-known member
I really agree with your last post. I think if we hesitated for a moment and thought about how our not making it home would affect others we might just have a few less dieing on the hills. The videos of insane climbs don't help...they really get you pumped and sometimes toooo pumped maybe trying to go above your skill level...This has been a great thread, not bashing but being reasonable
Purdy much sums it up dont take the risk unless your prepard to pay the price. But the closer you get to death the more exhilarating the Ride!
Whats more important being remebered for how good you got at somthing that made you feel good, or how much you loved and cared for others.
Whats more important being remebered for how good you got at somthing that made you feel good, or how much you loved and cared for others.
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