I think that the Union and the State are a big part of this. AR, is the $3/hr paycut in S. Carolina the money that was being paid to the Union for dues? Strikes hurt everybody. Including local retailers. Boeing is a large part of this area. Everytime a bit of it leaves I lose income because of the jobs lost. Washington state has been asked to change things also as it was taking too long to get parts from one facility to the next. Our "State" is not business friendly(B&O taxes, etc). Another state wanted Boeing's business more than our elected officials. Every business needs to be competitive. Hopefully the Unions and Wa. State realize this sooner as opposed to later....
Its a done deal....time to chime in
- Thread starter WHEREDAFUGAWEE
- Start date
If the IAM had not gone on strike 4 of the most recent contracts, would this have happened?
Do they really need 2 seperate lines, 3,000 miles apart ( and 2 seperate transportation systems) when they can built the 737 at a MUCH faster pace on 1 line?
Just something to think about.
Do they really need 2 seperate lines, 3,000 miles apart ( and 2 seperate transportation systems) when they can built the 737 at a MUCH faster pace on 1 line?
Just something to think about.
I am a laid off boeing worker. laid off last march. working there opposed to many other places i have worked, i have seen one thing stand out most of all. GREED. not just on one side, but on both. the media portrayes the whole thing to be the unions fault. its not. the last contract we signed was pretty much the same contract from 05. we didnt strike because we were greedy but we didnt want to see all the takeaways from medical. yes there was a general wage increase but that should have happened years ago. it seems like more and more people these days are anti union which i think is absolutely pathetic. unions have influenced most jobs out there. arent you glad for the 40 hour work week and weekends off? when you have to work over 40, arent you glad you get paid more? without unions we would all be working 60 hours a week for kibbles and bits. maybe its not true but its definitely something to think about.
G
Good to Go
Banned
I do think Unions have done good things.. Problem is now, they often don't know when to stop. They seem to have a problem leaving well enough alone.
i.e. picking up a shovel can't be done because it's out of one's job class.. staying on the clock because you're supposed to get 40 hours (WTF...works done, go home). I don't exaggerate... been there, including civil service... can't BS a BS'er.
I think alot of folks do have problems with how far they have pushed things. Often doesn't have much to do with common sense. And ultimately, every worker has the choice about what to put up with, etc, etc. God gave each of us two feet..
I have been a union member in the UFCW working at the grocery store and the IBEW as an electrician who worked a bit at Boeing and very thankful to the unions and the American Labor Movement that made this country at one time a world leader. History speaks loud and clear. What is disturbing tho is how our middle class America is constantly under attack. Many of my friends who work nonunion dont have the benefits of union workers. We would not need national health care if more jobs were union. Now the unions need it to compete with nonunion. Whats even worse is how one country (China) has nearly monopolized the world from ingenuities stolen from others. Or one company dictate laws that affect all other workers within the state. This undercutting has undermined the strife from the original progress the Labor Movement once brought about. All I can say is I hope Boeing keeps the majority of its manufacture on American soil but to go nonunion from a vote of only 300 workers is BS. Still worth a fight. And South Carolina is a Ratt Bag State!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009641252_webboeing11.html?syndication=
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009641252_webboeing11.html?syndication=
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A
Adrenaline Revolution
Well-known member
I hope you realize you are comparing apples to oranges in your comparison.If the IAM had not gone on strike 4 of the most recent contracts, would this have happened?
Do they really need 2 seperate lines, 3,000 miles apart ( and 2 seperate transportation systems) when they can built the 737 at a MUCH faster pace on 1 line?
Just something to think about.
The 737 is a one piece, snap-together model compared to the 787...Or ANY other production line at Boeing for that matter.
No body joins, no customer driven flexibility in the base models other than color scheme, the list goes on and on but you'd have to have built them and worked there to know that.
There's a good reason we can build one 737 every day...consistency and a devoted, skilled workforce.
The Union members have been constantly required to build and conduct ourselves as though it was OUR company and to take a personal interest in every success within the company and when we do take that personal interest in our company by not wanting to see another failed production system as we have with the 787 we get flack and disrespect from the people out there that are completely ignorant to the way we conduct ourselves on a daily basis.
We DO feel it is our company because that has been drummed into our heads for so long and any set back is met with a profound feeling of failure.
Now, throw into the mix a "Leadership" that makes ALL decisions based on short term profit for the immediate shareholders and NOT the security of the company's future as the world's leading aerospace producer and you just might be able to understand why we feel so betrayed by the company over the last decade.
All I can ask is that you actually research just exactly what has happened to Boeing in recent years since McDonald Douglas bought out Boeing with Boeing's money.
The entire very successful and one time innovative, cutting edge engineering and management model has degraded to the exact same failed model that cause McD. to be positioned for bankruptcy...THE EXACT SAME.
Some of you have said "It's their company and they can do with it as they please" but try to understand something.
The Machinists feel ownership and investment just as much as the board of Directors do.
We haven't invested the money but we have invested our very lives in the success of this company and we DO feel we should have some say in decisions regarding the direction our company is headed.
ALL of us are shareholders in this as well.
Another note...
Get your facts straight.
In 2 of the last three strikes, (last one included) the company made offers so ridiculously low so as to force us to walk out because of global parts and critical path shortages. They needed us out for a short time and that is the absolute cheapest way to achieve a planned plant shutdown.
Boeing wants out of Washington and having the Union as a scapegoat makes it incredibly simple for them to do it.
You just have to look a little deeper than the dis-information that the company is leaking to the media which in turn, is spoon feeding it to you.
Unless you are one of those sheep who believes everything the "Honest and unbiased" media tells you.
Someone at the Seattle Times got it right...
Subject: Who's to blame?
Boeing: This is not your parents' innovative, Seattle-centric Boeing. It's been taken over by a McDonnell Douglas do-it-on-the-cheap culture. Engineering and research and development were given a back seat to marketers and bean counters. It has no loyalty to the Puget Sound region.
Reality: Again, sadly true. Boeing is making a big mistake, and not just because of the hurricanes that tend to slam into Charleston. The former Vought plant acquired by Boeing as its Carolina beachhead was one of the worst epicenters of outsourced Dreamliner crackups. Expect a busy pipeline of Puget Sound-area employees flying to North Charleston to try to make this gambit work, and in the process slowly eliminate their own jobs. (Tip: Enjoy the rocking chairs at the Charlotte airport while waiting for your commuter connection).
Boeing's top executives bear the biggest blame for delays on the Dreamliner, the 747-8, the original scandal-sunk tanker contract, and Boeing's tarnished reputation. So far, they have evaded accountability.
Full column at:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jontalton/2010155120_biztaltoncol29.html
P
powder Head
Active member
Boy, good stuff folks. I have also worked at Boeing for 29 years. It's been a great place to work and still is. I have been union and non-union. Being non-union now is kind of scary, but that is part of life. I have supported the union efforts, though I surely don't agree with everything they try to do. In times of resesion, when people are losing jobs, losing benifits and there livelyhood, the union keeps asking for more and not wanting take aways. Again that is part of the life cycle we are in.
I knew the 2nd line was going away. The writing was on the wall. Boeing is a major corporation, the botom line is they have to make money, or their stockholders will not be happy. Shoot if we don't make money I won't make money because our bonuses are based on stock prices.
I know I said a whole loy of nothing, but I like my job, I think Boeing is a great place to work and it has afforded myself and my lovely wife a very stable and satisfying life style.
Let it snow amigos so we can get on to what life is all about.
I knew the 2nd line was going away. The writing was on the wall. Boeing is a major corporation, the botom line is they have to make money, or their stockholders will not be happy. Shoot if we don't make money I won't make money because our bonuses are based on stock prices.
I know I said a whole loy of nothing, but I like my job, I think Boeing is a great place to work and it has afforded myself and my lovely wife a very stable and satisfying life style.
Let it snow amigos so we can get on to what life is all about.
AR....no need to throw stones. I feel I have my facts straight, I go only by what I see.
Are you a shop steward? just curious.
I have worked on both 737 and 757 lines, have worked extensively on just about EVERY aspect of both. I did body join for years, join, drill and fasten. The 787 (which I have also worked on) will have even less labor involved (if all goes as planned) than the 757 did....which was built 95+% in-house and on one line.
My thought is that B will run the 2 lines for 2-3 years and then re-evaluate how the 2 compare.....the 2 lines will allow them to play "catch-up" to avoid some of the late delivery penalties, THEN opens the strong possibility of closing one of them if it is cost effective or if orders dwindle.
It makes no sense (to me) to have 2 seperate parts handling systems (air transport, rail transport, truck etc...) 3,000 miles apart to build the identical product, IF it can be done on one line effectively for less $$.
I'm sure we both want the same thing.....to see Boeing stay HERE and keep our jobs HERE with good pay and benefits.
The question is, does the manner that the IAM and the members conduct themselves at key times encourage that? Or discourage that? If YOU owned the company, how would YOU react to your employees marching around yelling and banging on garbage can lids on YOUR company time, wasting YOUR $$. Would you be more inclined to respect them and keep them employed if they instead worked, were respectful and conducted themselves in a civilized manner? I am truly embarassed to be a IAM member when I see the idiotic displays of mob-mentality on the news and in the factory. It does NOT help us, it hurts us.
And the last 2 initial offers were VERY good. Better in alot of aspects than what we settled for if you break out the calculator. The offloading language we got was meaningless....ask the facilities guys that are no longer here but were guaranteed not to get offloaded
Are you a shop steward? just curious.
I have worked on both 737 and 757 lines, have worked extensively on just about EVERY aspect of both. I did body join for years, join, drill and fasten. The 787 (which I have also worked on) will have even less labor involved (if all goes as planned) than the 757 did....which was built 95+% in-house and on one line.
My thought is that B will run the 2 lines for 2-3 years and then re-evaluate how the 2 compare.....the 2 lines will allow them to play "catch-up" to avoid some of the late delivery penalties, THEN opens the strong possibility of closing one of them if it is cost effective or if orders dwindle.
It makes no sense (to me) to have 2 seperate parts handling systems (air transport, rail transport, truck etc...) 3,000 miles apart to build the identical product, IF it can be done on one line effectively for less $$.
I'm sure we both want the same thing.....to see Boeing stay HERE and keep our jobs HERE with good pay and benefits.
The question is, does the manner that the IAM and the members conduct themselves at key times encourage that? Or discourage that? If YOU owned the company, how would YOU react to your employees marching around yelling and banging on garbage can lids on YOUR company time, wasting YOUR $$. Would you be more inclined to respect them and keep them employed if they instead worked, were respectful and conducted themselves in a civilized manner? I am truly embarassed to be a IAM member when I see the idiotic displays of mob-mentality on the news and in the factory. It does NOT help us, it hurts us.
And the last 2 initial offers were VERY good. Better in alot of aspects than what we settled for if you break out the calculator. The offloading language we got was meaningless....ask the facilities guys that are no longer here but were guaranteed not to get offloaded
A
Adrenaline Revolution
Well-known member
Sorry to come across as throwing stones Brew...not my true intent.AR....no need to throw stones. I feel I have my facts straight, I go only by what I see.
1.) Are you a shop steward? just curious.
I have worked on both 737 and 757 lines, have worked extensively on just about EVERY aspect of both. I did body join for years, join, drill and fasten. The 787 (which I have also worked on) will have even less labor involved (if all goes as planned) than the 757 did....which was built 95+% in-house and on one line.
2.)My thought is that B will run the 2 lines for 2-3 years and then re-evaluate how the 2 compare.....the 2 lines will allow them to play "catch-up" to avoid some of the late delivery penalties, THEN opens the strong possibility of closing one of them if it is cost effective or if orders dwindle.
It makes no sense (to me) to have 2 seperate parts handling systems (air transport, rail transport, truck etc...) 3,000 miles apart to build the identical product, IF it can be done on one line effectively for less $$.
I'm sure we both want the same thing.....to see Boeing stay HERE and keep our jobs HERE with good pay and benefits.
The question is, does the manner that the IAM and the members conduct themselves at key times encourage that? Or discourage that? If YOU owned the company,
3.)how would YOU react to your employees marching around yelling and banging on garbage can lids on YOUR company time, wasting YOUR $$. Would you be more inclined to respect them and keep them employed if they instead worked, were respectful and conducted themselves in a civilized manner? I am truly embarassed to be a IAM member when I see the idiotic displays of mob-mentality on the news and in the factory. It does NOT help us, it hurts us.
4.)And the last 2 initial offers were VERY good. Better in alot of aspects than what we settled for if you break out the calculator. The offloading language we got was meaningless....ask the facilities guys that are no longer here but were guaranteed not to get offloaded
First and foremost...
I'm writing this from my own beliefs and not as a Union Steward.
1.) Yes, I have been a Shop Steward for a long while but I'm definitely NOT your typical 100% IAM Union cheerleader, not even close. I think some of their people's ,NOT ALL, political beliefs are towards socialism and don't even get me started about that!
I disagree almost entirely with every politician they ask us to endorse.
Also, I don't agree with them on quite a few things they seem to stand for but most of that is driven by the International, not our local.
2.) I don't believe there will be a "First" line assembled in Everett as soon as SC is up and running...I give it About 3 years...Contract time.
It will also move to SC...No doubt in my mind really.
3.) I hope you realize when the marches take place it's to show that we are united towards the goal of a fair contract and definitely does have an impact on the company's negotiators.
Generally speaking, the managers in the shop are continually asked to gauge the temperament of the shop floor and because the Union does not employ but a very few lawyers as negotiators it helps the "regular Joe" who is working to get the company's very highly paid contract lawyers to actually sit down and discuss issues rather than just throw down a scribbled offer and walk out. THAT happened during the last talks every day.
Out of each 24 hour period of "Face to face" negotiations last year the company would only show up at the hotel for about 45 minutes and then simply get up and walk out. There was no negotiation.
I know this because some of the Union negotiators (sub-committees) are good friends of mine.
4.) Did you actually read the entire initial offer last year, not just the "Quick guide"?
First, the money portion was NOT the reason for the strike so as far as I'm concerned there is no need for a calculator. It's no secret we are well paid.
It was the things the Company was going to remove from the prior contract. The take-aways were dramatic.
I don't mean this personally about you at all Brew...Hell, I don't even know you
but anyone, after reading the entire initial offer and still thought it was a fair offer, is friggen nuts.It took the Contract Lawyers that the Union had on staff days of pouring over it and then comparing notes to see all the hidden pitfalls and blatant take aways to say nothing of the retiree benefits that would simply vanish that the company stuffed in there.
I have a lot of friends at Everett who are managers and even they realized what the company was trying to do...And they admitted to me that we would have been fools to accept it.
It was NOT about the money aspect of it.
We lose money every time we strike that's a no brainer.
It's for a much larger purpose like securing good local jobs for the future, never losing ground on a chance for a great career for the next generation.
Unfortunately, the company will leave Washington entirely in the next 18 to 20 years.
Yes, it will be much cheaper to operate Boeing somewhere else.
But would you pay top dollar for a Mercedes built in Korea?
Or a BMW built in Taiwan?
As a discriminating customer you pay the big bucks for those kind of high dollar products based on the fact that they are built by a tradition of craftsmanship, not the cheapest paid labor...right?
Remember...the Union members are the ones who voted down the offer by over 85%.
Don't blame Union Officers for that.
Every person who builds the Airplanes is the Union, They made the decision to strike. Not the Hall across the street.
They're only stake in this was to try to negotiate the top responses from all the surveys that went out over the last few years.
I'm sorry about your friend who was laid off as a result of outsourcing.
They did all they could for better language concerning outsourcing our facilities jobs and the company would not even speak to them about the subject.
Were you willing to strike MUCH much longer to get them to discuss it?
That's what it would have taken but then that's what this whole thread is about, Isn't it?
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Its all part of a much bigger problem. Love these Republican states. NOT!
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/10/30/china-technology-to-power-us-wind-farm/
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/10/30/china-technology-to-power-us-wind-farm/
C
Comp 670
Well-known member
One thing I find not right about the union is at thier building in everett right accross the street from boeing they have a statue of adults and kids standing around a burn barell holding strike signs..... What kind of message does that send? You would think they would have a statue of union workers proudly working building great aircraft.But no,they show themselfs on strike...
WTF!!! I just threw up a little...
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Very disturbing!! I guess the Chinese wind farm is going to put more americans to work than the last stimulus plan....
A
Adrenaline Revolution
Well-known member
I couldn't agree more.
That thing is an embarrassment.
G
Good to Go
Banned
OK.... I get the article. I don't get your comment...
Now THAT I get... lmao, stimulus my azz...
Quote from the article:
Sounds like the lib's are pizzed at themselves...
Which brings up another subject: wind farms, but we won't go there today..
The next generation in what state/country exactly? Not trying to be a smart ***, it just seems to me that the Unions constant demand / expectation of higher wages / better benefits has played a large part of Boeings decision to go elsewhere....
No wonder why the job growth in China is so good.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/articl...?Title=Drywall-problems-may-just-be-beginning
Many products in the construction industry over the last 15 years have been made in China. Many union contracts supported the use of only American made products but over the years things have changed at a much higher cost. Most of the drywall industry is done nonunion by illeagals from Mexico. I guess this is what most people want.
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