Is Arctic Cat about to put out a youth snowmobile?

[Escmanaze]

This is great news. I wish I was a kid again...!!

Happy as all heck that its a 2-stroke. Polaris Evo resale just went in the toilet.

Curious to see what it weighs, no weight listed yet.

Agree overall. Disagree that evo resale just went in toilet. For starters, it's $2k cheaper. That means a lot to a lot of folks. Second, there is definitely some value in putting a kid on a fan cooled sled that he won't - basically can't overheat. Third, Burandt just paved the way for folks to throw a couple mods at it and make it a worthy mountain machine for kids. With a $2k head start, you can definitely pay for a few of your favorite mods to get that thing up to snuff.

This definitely puts a dent in it though. This is clearly the superior sled straight out of the box.

 

[Trashy]

Some info I am eagerly awaiting:

-track width (I know its a 146 x 2)

-overall dimensions (the 11 gallon fuel tank tells me it’s close to a full size sled)

-dry weight

 

[Escmanaze]

So I think Cat has the most to gain on making a great kids sled. Here's why: The alpha rides so much different than traditional sleds and the other two brands right now. If you can start a kid at 10 years old getting the feel of the alpha, and he rides alpha until the age of 14 because it is so clearly superior to anything else out there for that age group, that's 4 years of him getting accustomed to the alpha riding style. So then at the age of 15, he tries all three brands of adult sleds and guess which one he likes the most? The alpha!! That's what he has grown up riding so far for 4 years, so that is what feels most comfortable to him. He doesn't get on a full size alpha like the rest of us old guys and think "oh wow, this is kinda wild, I'll have to get used to it. I hope I like it after I spend a season or so getting used to it." He hops on and thinks "yup, feels just right - I'm ready to rip!!"

 

[Trashy]

Agree overall. Disagree that evo resale just went in toilet. For starters, it's $2k cheaper. That means a lot to a lot of folks. Second, there is definitely some value in putting a kid on a fan cooled sled that he won't - basically can't overheat. Third, Burandt just paved the way for folks to throw a couple mods at it and make it a worthy mountain machine for kids. With a $2k head start, you can definitely pay for a few of your favorite mods to get that thing up to snuff.

This definitely puts a dent in it though. This is clearly the superior sled straight out of the box.

Just the fact that it’s not a carbed fanner is worth the $2k to me

there’s lots of choices for folks that are concerned about overheating. This sled is all about a kid taking that next step to mountain riding in my opinion, and I don’t doubt for a second that Cat has their sights on some other recipients for this engine.

Im a Doo guy but they have nothing to offer for my kid. He’s on a 2020 ZR 200 this year, pretty sure I know what sled is coming next.

 

[Escmanaze]

Some info I am eagerly awaiting:

-track width (I know its a 146 x 2)

-overall dimensions (the 11 gallon fuel tank tells me it’s close to a full size sled)

-dry weight

The website shows the track width as 15 for the m and the LT. It shows the track width as 14 for the zr.

The website also has the overall dimensions. That's where you find out that cat is lying to us calling it a "true midsize sled". Everything about it is full size. Tunnel, bulkhead, gas tank, A-arms, skis, & skid. The only thing that is small is the engine and the plastics.

I EAGERLY await finding out what the actual weight is.

 

[Bushwacker1]

Cat took a huge leap to develop and certify this engine. I agree, they must have some other things in the works (snow bike) where they will use this engine to recover the costs of certifying it. The many conversations with people from Polaris I have had over the years indicated that developing and producing engines that would not have a high volume was held back by the cost to certify them. Cat seems to realize that offering an entry level sled will help grow the sport down the road as young riders will someday purchase sleds for themselves. Polaris made a renewed effort at this with the Evo (since the Indy lite retirement) and has hit the mark with the trail sled with pricing and fit to a smaller young rider. The Rmk Evo hits the price point, but in my opinion falls short in the weight category, and rider position, especially when they have most the parts available to make a 375 pound sled with the rider forward position. If the new cat comes in around 400 lbs it will take the wind right out of Evo Rmk sales as true off trail riding family's will chose the Cat M. Now that there is more than one Mfg willing to address this low volume entry level market, the competition to capture it has just ramped up a notch or two. It will be interesting to see if Polaris will finally pull out the stops and release a true pro Rmk Evo to compete with the new Cat M. Cat just gave them a heads up with much more time to respond than in the past. Let the games begin.

 

[Idcatman3]

Shoot, I was pretty darn close.

As predicted, it is a full size sled pretending to be a small sled.

I'm super pumped that I was wrong about that engine. How cool is this single cylinder liquid cooled EFI thing? That is pure awesome. I suddenly have high hopes that it might weigh less than the evo RMK even if it does still weigh more than my axys pro-rmk. I would love to have been wrong about it weighing more than the evo RMK. Hopefully that comes true.

Super bummed that they used the 37-39 arms for the mountain version when they had the 35-37 arms just sitting there from the adult sled.

Man I just love the thought of what that engine could do for the industry as a whole. So freaking awesome.

Overall, this thing seems to be better than the evo rmk in almost every single way. The only thing I see that the evo did better is the lower seat and the smaller gas tank.

I'm super pumped about this sled, but I guess now I gotta figure out whether or not I hate this whole alpha rail thingey.

This is supposed to have a lower seat, and I want to see a frame picture to see if there's anything really different there. But if you look at a Pro-climb front frame, there's not much there already. Not a ton of places to save much weight.
You can always just not fill the tank up, and put the 36" arms on yourself. It's no worse than what has to be done to the Evo to make it decent.

I do agree that at least the mountain version should have been 36" from the start.

I would have liked to see something narrower, but I'll hold judgement on that a little bit until I actually see one.

 

[edgey]

If it's 400# dry it's going to be a turd!!! I like the engine but they missed on the chassis. A poo 800 rmk is 406 dry.

 

[bnorth]

If it's 400# dry it's going to be a turd!!! I like the engine but they missed on the chassis. A poo 800 rmk is 406 dry.

buy your 10 year old an 800 rmk then.

 

[Bushwacker1]

Quote
If it's 400# dry it's going to be a turd!!! I like the engine but they missed on the chassis. A poo 800 rmk is 406 dry.
Click to expand...
buy your 10 year old an 800 rmk then.

Reply
I think the point trying to be made is that (at least) Polaris has found a way to make an 800 come in at 408 pounds and yet we continue to see beginner sleds offered that are much heavier. New ridders are usually young and do not have the upper body strength or body weight to counter act the weight of a heavy sled in the powder. I cringe when thinking of putting a new and or young rider on even a 120 hp 600. The lower power is good for a beginner so they do not get in over their head but the power to weight ratio also will affect a new riders ability to ride the sled in deep powder. Weight on a trail sled does not have as much of an effect although lighter is still better for new riders. All the MFG offer 4 wheelers in reduced scale sizes to fit all body sizes, age, and skill levels. I think it is reasonable to assume that the smallest model would not weigh more than a full size model, or to expect a smaller rider to be able control/ handle the extra weight when trying to learn. A Polaris 800 engine weighs around 100 pounds and this new 400 engine weighs around 50 lbs so it is not that big of a stretch to think a 360 pound powder sled is within reach with a single cylinder engine (at least in a Polaris chassis). I am a Polaris guy and I have spoke to anyone I can at that company over the last several years asking for a true beginner mountain sled built with existing parts in their inventory. They now have an EVO RMK and I understand they have most likely left out the light weight parts in an effort to hit the price point but still continue to ask why they do not offer snow check options to build one with the light weight parts. I take issue with the argument that these are super high cost parts when the R and D as well as the tooling costs have long been paid for by the volume already produced. I don't know Cat very well but it looks like they have included many premium parts including their new skid from their top of the line powder sled. I would be willing to guess the new Cat Blast M final weight can be calculated by deducting the weight difference of an 800 engine and the 400 engine from an 800M, a few pounds for the shorter track and a half gallon of coolant (around 55 pounds lighter than the 800) . I think their price point seems to reflect the cost of a new water cooled engine and most of the goodies from the full size sled. If my weight estimate is correct it would be hard to see how they could reduce the weight much more if the new sled is built from a full size sled platform that is already heavier than the competition. I do agree power to weight is very important in a powder sled.

 

[couch]

Quote
If it's 400# dry it's going to be a turd!!! I like the engine but they missed on the chassis. A poo 800 rmk is 406 dry.
Click to expand...
buy your 10 year old an 800 rmk then.

Reply
I think the point trying to be made is that (at least) Polaris has found a way to make an 800 come in at 408 pounds and yet we continue to see beginner sleds offered that are much heavier. New ridders are usually young and do not have the upper body strength or body weight to counter act the weight of a heavy sled in the powder. I cringe when thinking of putting a new and or young rider on even a 120 hp 600. The lower power is good for a beginner so they do not get in over their head but the power to weight ratio also will affect a new riders ability to ride the sled in deep powder. Weight on a trail sled does not have as much of an effect although lighter is still better for new riders. All the MFG offer 4 wheelers in reduced scale sizes to fit all body sizes, age, and skill levels. I think it is reasonable to assume that the smallest model would not weigh more than a full size model, or to expect a smaller rider to be able control/ handle the extra weight when trying to learn. A Polaris 800 engine weighs around 100 pounds and this new 400 engine weighs around 50 lbs so it is not that big of a stretch to think a 360 pound powder sled is within reach with a single cylinder engine (at least in a Polaris chassis). I am a Polaris guy and I have spoke to anyone I can at that company over the last several years asking for a true beginner mountain sled built with existing parts in their inventory. They now have an EVO RMK and I understand they have most likely left out the light weight parts in an effort to hit the price point but still continue to ask why they do not offer snow check options to build one with the light weight parts. I take issue with the argument that these are super high cost parts when the R and D as well as the tooling costs have long been paid for by the volume already produced. I don't know Cat very well but it looks like they have included many premium parts including their new skid from their top of the line powder sled. I would be willing to guess the new Cat Blast M final weight can be calculated by deducting the weight difference of an 800 engine and the 400 engine from an 800M, a few pounds for the shorter track and a half gallon of coolant (around 55 pounds lighter than the 800) . I think their price point seems to reflect the cost of a new water cooled engine and most of the goodies from the full size sled. If my weight estimate is correct it would be hard to see how they could reduce the weight much more if the new sled is built from a full size sled platform that is already heavier than the competition. I do agree power to weight is very important in a powder sled.

Problem is that if they offer all the goodies on a youth sled at 1/2 the cost of an adult sled then its very difficult to justify the much higher price point of the adult sled ....

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

 

[Big10inch]

154 Alpha is 446 lbs. If the engine alone is a 50 lb savings and the track is shorter with shorter lugs and just a couple of other parts like the seat bars etc lose a little, it should come in well under 400 dry. Yes, you can buy a 408 lb 800RMK but the Cat in my experience is a much more durable machine, and with the Alpha rail it is a better ride. The whole point of the kids sled is to keep the danger level down by limiting the power. I bet it still runs 50-60 mph on the trail, and with a sub 100 lb kid on it it should perform just fine. My kids are grown and on big sleds but man, I would have been a customer had they offered it back in the day. My kids had to fight a 2002 700 RMK, great in its day, but the Blast M is a gift!

 

[thedude306]

As I've got kids rocking modified 120s I say this sled is still too big. and well expensive. I was really hoping the EVO would be the stop gap but it isn't and I had high hopes for this sled that have fallen short. I was expecting a XR200 size sled with a 300-400 2 stroke and proper clutch and longer track options that would support full size front end parts.

For my kids, it isn't a power issue. At 5 and 8 they both weigh 55lbs... it's a size issue. They both have excellent throttle control. They both understand about shifting their weight on a sled (as much as you can on a 120 ) but they are not going to throw around a 400lbs sled regardless of their riding ability.

Is there room in the market for the sled I'm after, prob not. With the 120s and the 200 I don't think they could support another "small" sled. I think they could lose the 120s though and really make the 200s more of a "modifiable" sled that starts out pretty slow but has greater potential...

 

[edgey]

buy your 10 year old an 800 rmk then.

My 10yr old rode a 2012 600 rmk with electric start untill last yr when he turned 13 and I bought him a 18 pro rmk 163 with out electric start he weighed 120#. He loves it hardly ever got stuck last yr.

My point is if the AC 400 weighs the same or close to a pro 800 and I bought his carry over 163 for $8799 compared to $8000 for the little cat. I know which one I would buy.

 

[boondocker97]

My 10yr old rode a 2012 600 rmk with electric start untill last yr when he turned 13 and I bought him a 18 pro rmk 163 with out electric start he weighed 120#. He loves it hardly ever got stuck last yr.

My point is if the AC 400 weighs the same or close to a pro 800 and I bought his carry over 163 for $8799 compared to $8000 for the little cat. I know which one I would buy.

163 Pro RMK is 413lb dry. If the 400 Cat is 400lb with electric start. Historically cat's electric start systems are good for a 20lb loss if removed. Pull that off and it's a 30-35lb lighter machine. Probably be tough to find a carryover for $7k in the first year though. apples-apples.

 

[edgey]

163 Pro RMK is 413lb dry. If the 400 Cat is 400lb with electric start. Historically cat's electric start systems are good for a 20lb loss if removed. Pull that off and it's a 30-35lb lighter machine. Probably be tough to find a carryover for $7k in the first year though. apples-apples.

So do think a 10yr old will be able to pull start it? And this is assuming it's 400 dry. U can make up all the scenarios u want. If u like it buy it, but I would have like to seen AC put the 400 in the 200 chassis with a 146 track then u would have a true 10 yr old's mountain sled imo

 

[boondocker97]

Looks to have a decent sized recoil assembly, single cylinder 2 stroke, and mild compression (65hp) it's possible a 10yo could start it.

IMO by the time you put a 146 on the 200 chassis you would end up building the 400 chassis to make it work correctly.

 

[Bushwacker1]

Problem is that if they offer all the goodies on a youth sled at 1/2 the cost of an adult sled then its very difficult to justify the much higher price point of the adult sled ....

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

A beginner sled does not need all the goodies just the parts that make it fit the intended rider and perform to a new riders skill set and be light enough for them to handle it. All the Mfgs have shown the ability to manage a snow check program quite well and could offer things like premium shocks and a high tech gauge so the folks that are willing to pay for it can have it. They could even offer a light weight package as a snow check option only and still have a price point model that is heavier. Accessory packages for these upgrades are also another way to be able to offer a bare bone price point sled and allow for upgrades. I look back to the original Indy Lites that were price point sleds. They had cable operated brakes, no stabilizer bar, and the star lite did not even have a speedometer. Hand warmers were an accessory. They even had a steel bulkhead and somehow managed to be lighter than the full size Indy sleds. They sold a ton of these at a price point. These price point sleds got people on the snow and it wasn't long before they were buying the next model up, usually from the same MFG. These were close to full size sleds and were designed as an entry level sled with only a handful of parts pulled from the existing parts bin. Somehow they found a way to sell enough to pay for the design, and tooling and most likely make a profit. Yet motorcycles and four wheelers still come in all sizes. They don't just take a full size motorcycle and put smaller wheels and engine on it and say here ya go. They design engines and chassis to fit the intended rider size and skill level. They even offer high performance smaller bikes that come with a premium price. We all want them to build a true beginner sled in .75 scale but due to the small market it seems it will not be in the cards anytime soon. If we acknowledge the smaller snowmobile market will not support design and tooling of smaller scale models all we can hope for is for a Mfg to make use of existing parts on the shelf to limit development and tooling costs and still be able to offer product into these smaller markets. Polaris did just that with their EVO but in my opinion stopped short of what they could have done with the RMK Evo. I don't know enough about the new Cat offering to say they have purpose designed /built their new sled, if it is a true .75 scale, or if they used mostly shared parts from full size sleds but they did take the next step on the engine which says they are serious about this market. The full size sleds should cost more. They are marketed as top of the line full performance sleds. Entry level sleds have always had low profit margins, they should fit the intended rider, and perform as functional and not as high performance. Performance sleds should have the highest profit margins. Justifying that higher cost to paying for the higher performance seems reasonable to me.

 

[summ8rmk]

163 Pro RMK is 413lb dry. If the 400 Cat is 400lb with electric start. Historically cat's electric start systems are good for a 20lb loss if removed. Pull that off and it's a 30-35lb lighter machine. Probably be tough to find a carryover for $7k in the first year though. apples-apples.

Probably no carryover with them being snowcheck only?

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