Hybrid Cars

[khaddon2110]

I am curious as to how electric vehicles are going to effect emergency responders when the vehicles get into accidents. They will probably need some sort of device that shorts or discharges the batter pack (lots of energy) when the vehicle gets hit.

They will probably need testing gear like linemen to see if a car is hot or not, as would happen if the vehicle.

Thinking about this further, I am not sure if it would happen. You would need to have the grounds to the battery disconnect from the frame/chassis and go to the road surface/or another car, with the positive lead going to the frame.... I guess it is more likely to get into a short situation in the car itself. Might be a means of causing car fires...

I guess if they put the batteries in the back of the car, and had a rear electric drive system, you could completely isolate the system from passengers with a rear firewall or something similar.

I'll give you a little credit in your ability to hold a debate on political issues as it does seem you have a little knowledge about world and social events... even though your point of view is in the definate minority on here..... Credit due for the effort.
Lineman tools? whatever dude. We are talking about batteries here... worst case scenario is fire, but good luck with the electrocution argument.

 

[Ollie]

Snowizard.
If they are using the same tech they use for, say, my battery operated drill.
Arn't those very bad if they get busted or leak?
How do they mitigate the damage to the batteries from, say, a head on crash, or being re-ended?
How do they keep the batteries in one piece?

 

[ruffryder]

OK *** munch....... I'll give you a little credit in your ability to hold a debate on political issues as it does seem you have a little knowledge about world and social events... even though your point of view is in the definate minority on here..... Credit due for the effort. but now your just way over your head...

Lineman tools? whatever dude. We are talking about batteries here... worst case scenario is fire, but good luck with the electrocution argument.

Well how do you expect to get the energy to run long distances? P=V*I, much easier to get a large P with a high voltage, then it is to get a large P with a large current. I think they are at 500 Volt battery packs, maybe eventually they will go to 1kV, 2kV, 3kV?

Linemen have snubbers or whatever that they wave near energized systems that will beep if they are hot/live, figured it would be an easy means of verifying the electrical potential of a car.

If you actually read all of my post, it stated that it would actually be unlikely for the car to become energized. But if you want to repeat the conclusion I came up with, fine.

I don't appreciate you stating that I don't know what I am talking about. If you truly think that, why don't you show me and correct me with reasoning, I do have a fairly open mind, or I at least try to have one.

 

[ruffryder]

Interesting article on servicing hybrid cars

hybrid servicing

Interesting they recommend 1kV gloves, and full face shield.

 

[Dogmeat]

The only thing I don't like about hybrid cars are the bull**** liberal elitist attitudes their idiot owners have.

There's a very large potential for hybrid vehicles to become viable, especially for heavy-duty trucks believe it or not.

I just can't stand the idiot attitudes of most of these new-wave hybrid owners, they think they're saving the damned planet and saving money by paying $6,000 more for a vehicle that gets at MOST %15 better gas miledge than a similar econobox ride .... it's the same stupid mentality that somone who buys a diesel truck usees to tow two jet-skis to the lake claiming they're getting better fuel economy when it cost them 6 grand more to buy

But yeah, hybrid owners are idiots ... there was more "environmental imact" during the manufacturing process of the lead-iodide or whatever batteries they use than an entire years worth of Co2 emissions would have been ... but hey, it's the hip new thing ..

On the flip side ..

Electric motors technically produce peak torque at zero RPM ... think your diesel produces power down low huh?

Think about it ... You all know those 90,250,320-ton mining trucks with tires that are like 4 feet wide and 12 feet tall? .... Those technically are hybrids. They're diesel-electric .... they have diesel motors generating electricity and then wheels are driven by electric motors

So, you can see where there might be a large potential for this in the consumer "heavy duty light truck" market

it's all about effeciency and balance ... it's possible though.

 

[ruffryder]

Info on the Tesla roadster batter pack. Only operates at 375 volts, storing 53 kW-hrs of energy, max power of 200kW.

Tesla Roadster batter pack info

 

[ruffryder]

Think about it ... You all know those 90,250,320-ton mining trucks with tires that are like 4 feet wide and 12 feet tall? .... Those technically are hybrids. They're diesel-electric .... they have diesel motors generating electricity and then wheels are driven by electric motors

Yah, series hybrid, kind of like trains. I heard that they brake electrically too? I was really surprised to hear that, but I guess they weigh so much that mechanical brakes wouldn't work?

Funny how advanced the big machines really are as compared to the smaller stuff.

 

[khaddon2110]

Well how do you expect to get the energy to run long distances? P=V*I, much easier to get a large P with a high voltage, then it is to get a large P with a large current. I think they are at 500 Volt battery packs, maybe eventually they will go to 1kV, 2kV, 3kV?
Prius batteries are in the 230-260V DC range. Not going to get hurt by those batteries other than fire or explosion.

Linemen have snubbers or whatever that they wave near energized systems that will beep if they are hot/live, figured it would be an easy means of verifying the electrical potential of a car. Those are for AC. They pick up the 60 cycle radiation emitted from the energized line.

If you actually read all of my post, it stated that it would actually be unlikely for the car to become energized. But if you want to repeat the conclusion I came up with, fine. I did go back and see where you did say probably won't happen... OK

I don't appreciate you stating that I don't know what I am talking about. If you truly think that, why don't you show me and correct me with reasoning, I do have a fairly open mind, or I at least try to have one.

OK.... Sorry about the *** Munch comment...

I did say you usually put forth a pretty good argument even though I hardly ever agree

 

[Dogmeat]

Yah, series hybrid, kind of like trains. I heard that they brake electrically too? I was really surprised to hear that, but I guess they weigh so much that mechanical brakes wouldn't work?

Funny how advanced the big machines really are as compared to the smaller stuff.

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the electrical braking effect comes either reducing current through the magnets on the motors or alternating it in a different direction so as to produce electromotive force in the opposite direction hence braking..

I'm not an electrical guy, Mule might be better to answer that question

 

[ruffryder]

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the electrical braking effect comes either reducing current through the magnets on the motors or alternating it in a different direction so as to produce electromotive force in the opposite direction hence braking..

I'm not an electrical guy, Mule might be better to answer that question

They change the direction of current. Voltage changes rotational direction (forward/reverse), current changes torque (accelerate/decelerate). To stop you want negative torque (with positive defined as a force to accelerate the vehicle).

 

[ruffryder]

OK.... Sorry about the *** Munch comment...

I did say you usually put forth a pretty good argument even though I hardly ever agree

No problem. Good point on the whole AC thing, where is the head banging on the wall icon when I need one? Those tools use the varying electrical field created to give the go/no-go signal right?

Is there anyway to check voltage of a DC system without having a measuring device physically connected? No varying electric field makes me say no.

I am curious why you say ~200 -300 Volt DC won't hurt you. I would assume if you grabbed them with your bare hands you would still get shocked. Care to explain in more detail?

 

[Snowizard]

Here's a "paper" on NiMH battery theory. More than we need to know, but well done and easy to follow.
Note, its a 2MB PDF file.
http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/tutorial/inside_nimh_battery_technology.pdf

 

[Jeff C]

Snowizard.
If they are using the same tech they use for, say, my battery operated drill.
Arn't those very bad if they get busted or leak?
How do they mitigate the damage to the batteries from, say, a head on crash, or being re-ended?
How do they keep the batteries in one piece?

Ollie:

They will mitigate the damage about the same way they have mitigated the damage on existing gasoline vehicles, that is frame rails, and construction methods to protect the tank from puncturing.

In a catastrophic collision, I would rather deal with a leaking battery than 20 gallons of gas leaking out and causing an explosion while you are still pinned in the vehicle.

Using your logic, we should not be driving our existing vehicles cause the tanks might leak in a severe collision.....

I don't get your logic.......

 

[khaddon2110]

I am curious why you say ~200 -300 Volt DC won't hurt you. I would assume if you grabbed them with your bare hands you would still get shocked. Care to explain in more detail?

In a wreck scenario, the chances of being shocked by the battery are next to nothing....

I suppose it could happen, but the only way would be between the contacts...No possible way for the car to become electrified..

That was my point, even though it may not have been clear...

 

[sky7051]

"No possible way for the car to become electrified.. "


Ok so I've read through here and now I'm really curious why you're saying no way for the vehicle to be electrified. I know its been 8 years now since I was fully certified and an operating firefighter, but when I was getting out we were starting to get upgraded training manuals regarding hybrid vehicles and extrication. Now its been so long I'm not sure on all the reasoning but I do remember caution points for cutting at "a" posts because of charged cables.

 

[Ollie]

Ollie:

They will mitigate the damage about the same way they have mitigated the damage on existing gasoline vehicles, that is frame rails, and construction methods to protect the tank from puncturing.

In a catastrophic collision, I would rather deal with a leaking battery than 20 gallons of gas leaking out and causing an explosion while you are still pinned in the vehicle.

Using your logic, we should not be driving our existing vehicles cause the tanks might leak in a severe collision.....

I don't get your logic.......

um.............I was asking a serious question.
no logic involved, just looking for info.
I would rather be doused in gas then covered in acid.

 

[Jeff C]

No acid..........

You are thinking these new batteries are wet cell.........No

 

[XC700116]

Yah, series hybrid, kind of like trains. I heard that they brake electrically too? I was really surprised to hear that, but I guess they weigh so much that mechanical brakes wouldn't work?

Funny how advanced the big machines really are as compared to the smaller stuff.

Actually trains use both dynamic (electrical generation braking) and air operated mechanical brakes. It takes a lot to stop the friggen things thats for sure. To accomplish dynamic braking you induce a current into the rotor of the electric motor and connect the field leads to a load on a locomotive ( a grid of high power handling resistors) or battery charging unit in the case of hybrids which turns it from a motor into a generator thus putting an electromagnetic load on the motor turned generator.

 

[khaddon2110]

"No possible way for the car to become electrified.. "


Ok so I've read through here and now I'm really curious why you're saying no way for the vehicle to be electrified. I know its been 8 years now since I was fully certified and an operating firefighter, but when I was getting out we were starting to get upgraded training manuals regarding hybrid vehicles and extrication. Now its been so long I'm not sure on all the reasoning but I do remember caution points for cutting at "a" posts because of charged cables.

Ok... how can I best explain this.. lets take your scenario of cutting through a post.. Worst case, your blade cuts throught a hot cable and at that point shorts the cable to frame ground... does that electrify the car to a point where someone can get shocked? NO, ... Possibly a lot of sparks

what you may get is a tripped breaker from the high current surge created by the short ... I can't believe these batteries are not idiot proofed to a point to protect for just that.

 

[ruffryder]

what you may get is a tripped breaker from the high current surge created by the short ... I can't believe these batteries are not idiot proofed to a point to protect for just that.

If you read the tesla link, it talks about the protection on each individual battery cell. Check it out.