How much would you pay for Tabs? Poll

[Snow Shark]

I do know what I am talking about.

You do not know what you are talking about; I have spoken up in the past. I believe that most of the problem is the good old boys club; our local Snow Advisory member was very aware of the problem at marble mtn and chose to do nothing about it. He lives 20 minutes from Saturday’s meeting but stayed at the hotel which is a complete waste of MY money. I belong to the Tracriders club and have for years. It is discussed at our local club level.


We do not need to pay for enforcement, the same agencies you want to pay to write tickets for snow parks, seem to find the money to go up the same areas and write tickets for the lack of a forest pass during the summer? On top of that the budget shows a bunch of money for vault toilets, which I do like at the snow parks, but once the snow melts, the summer users use the toilets too, so why do WE have to pay for the whole cost?


I would be willing to pay more, but not to a broke system. I think the whole board should step down in lieu of the melt down do to lack of oversight. If the whole board would step down and some new people took over there may be a chance to increase the fees.

I believe our local grooming program is very good was excellent accountability.

It is our snow removal that sucks. Once the forest service quit doing the plowing and bid it out, the system broke and WE all complained about it. I realize this must be personal to you, but it is not to me. I just want the snow removed.


As far as taking responsibility my wife volunteered to be on the committee at the meeting remember? I believe she was shot down, by a laughing James Horan, ring a bell?

 

[Snowsharkette]

Here's the Deal (from the troublemaking Biatch at the meeting)

I am currently on two boards. One is SAWS and the other is our community soccer board. I am on these boards because I have some valuable talents although I do not always use them as wisely as I could.

I was hard on the board and wish I had been meaner. They clearly did not appreciate my forthright manner but they still do not understand what they created. Someone had to stand up and rock the boat. There has been more discussion about the board and the need for change that would never have taken place had I not joined SnoWest and told as many people as I could what the problems were with the current system.

Why SAWS? Because I live to sled. It is the only thing I look forward to every day 365 days a year. I could care less about grooming. I don’t do roads. If I stand by and allow one closure to go by unchallenged I may as well have been the jerk posting the closure signs. If I allow someone to mishandle sledding funds it is as if I have stolen from my playmates. I can’t allow these wrongs to go unchallenged.

We cannot stand by and allow the status quo to continue. Challenge the board about their choices! Challenge your representatives about their failure to get us our gas tax money! Challenge those in our sport who stand by and allow closures! Don’t allow the same ‘ol crap to continue. Join SAWS! Write 20 letters a year and save someone’s favorite sledding area. Just don’t sit by and watch it slip away. Take responsibility and make a change!

 

[CleElum Sledhead]

Email sent to WA SAWS members 2/7/08 regarding this issue

During the 06/07 winter season there were 31,532 sleds registered in WA state. http://www.snowmobile.org/stats_registrations_us.asp

I have not seen a figure posted for winter 07/08 yet, possibly because some people are still registering their sleds. 35,000 may be the average based on x number of years, but I don't really know. Sled registrations go up in good snow years and go down in bad snow years.

Below is the email that was sent to WA SAWS members early this morning (2/7/08) regarding this issue. Good luck to those of you that plan to help address this issue with your time and/or money. I wish you the best of luck, and thank you for your efforts.


WA SAWS members,

Most of you should have received my WA SAWS News email from Last Friday 2/1/08 that indicated there were snow removal problems at several sno-parks in WA state, and that at the time there were many rumors that plowing funds had been used up for plowing of several sno-parks. Although grooming and plowing issues are outside the defined scope for SAWS (we are basically a free snowmobile land use access advocacy organization with no paid positions), I did check with the Washington State Parks Winter Recreation Office and I also contacted several other individuals (SAWS members, WSSA members, and others) that might know more details on this issue. I also left a few phone messages for some of the contractors that plow and/or groom, and I heard back from Tim Foss (Forest Service, Cle Elum Ranger District) and Bob Lind (R&R Grooming).

Turns out the rumors are true folks. At a minimum I have been told that the funds for sno-park snow removal are gone for I-90 corridor (Snoqualmie Pass area), Marble Mountain (St. Helens), Cougar Mountain (St. Helens) and Greenwater. I am sure that most other sno-parks in WA state will be out of plowing funds soon too, if they are not already.

I am not going to get into the politics of who, why, or the extreme weather, as to why the plowing funds are already gone. This email is just an FYI that some of the rumors first heard by myself the last two weeks and that I warned our WA SAWS members of last week, have now been confirmed to be true. Some snowmobilers have suggested that donations for certain sno-parks is the answer for the rest of this year; others want the snowmobile license tab fees increased; others want the gas tax cap removed; others have even indicated they will not pay another penny to this issue until changes are made at WA State Parks; and some have even indicated that no sno-park plowing or grooming is fine by them. I have seen no common theme of agreement among snowmobilers as to what the answer should be, but it seems to me that for future years (will not help us this year), that getting the gas tax cap removed is a a no additional cost method for snowmobilers to get more money on the ground. This is my personal feeling, and not a SAWS voted policy position (again, outside our SAWS scope). Of course if you fall into the group of "no more money to a system you deem as broken", then this idea is probably also not your cup of tea. See the information below this email from WSSA if you are interested in helping to get the bills passed in Olympia to increase the gas tax cap.

I would like to reiterate that this issue is NOT a SAWS issue that we plan to address as an organization. With a full time paid job, a very large amount of my free time volunteering for SAWS dealing with permanent land use closures such as new wilderness bills, Recommended Wilderness Area proposals, Forest Plan Revisions and Travel Plans, and the fact that once again this issue falls outside of our SAWS defined scope, I do not have the time or energy to add this political hot potato to my plate -so I won't.

Emotions are definitely running high. Some people are very upset, and some people are just agitated, but I would strongly encourage those that wish to get involved in resolving this issue to try and deal with just the facts and leave as much emotion as possible behind. The name calling and blame game is getting pretty ugly from where I am sitting. You can start by going to your next Snowmobile Grooming council Meeting. I know that there will be one in Cle Elum on Monday Feb 11 at 7 PM at the Cle Elum Ranger Station.

Dave
Snowmobile Alliance of Western States
_________________________________________________________________

Portion of email from WSSA dated 2/5/08


****Remove the Gas Tax Cap**** Contact your legislators to approve House Bill 1405 & Senate Bill 5023
Likely the most controversial and difficult, these bills modify the fuel tax rate used to determine fuel tax distributions to fund non-highway expenditures. Basically, they lift the gas tax cap (which currently tops out at 23 cents in 2011) applied to snowmobile generated revenue and will allow the full amount of collected tax to be applied to the State's snowmobile program.

We have found out this week that some areas are totally out of funds to plow Sno-Parks. Many more will soon be out of funds. This is an excellent time for the snowmobilers to contact their legislators telling them of their dilemma. Especially the ones in the urban areas, who would rather use the money on their roads, because they are not hearing from their constituents (YOU) in their district. We have a situation that is bad that allows snowmobilers to speak from their heart with passion so we need YOU to contact your elected officials this week!

WSSA has put their eggs in this basket to get more funds for the State's snowmobile program. We must act immediately to get these bills through Olympia. We need to get activated. Membership (YOU) needs to contact officials, because we have nothing else to raise more funds. Roughly lifting the gas tax cap 10 cents amounts to $13.50 per snowmobile. For 35,000 snowmobiles, it amounts to $472,500. This is an amount that will make a difference short term and into the future if we can keep the cap removed. We can't do it alone.

Grooming costs continue to go up as contracts are renewed. We can't let this session slip away. This is the only way we can get more funding for the Winter Recreation Program, i.e., grooming and plowing. The WSSA Board cannot make this happen alone, we need constituents in every corner of Washington State contacting the legislator this week. It's important if we want funding in the future. Do you need help contacting your legislator or need a sample letter to cut and paste in an email, go to http://www.wssa.us/legislatorletter.htm.


Thank you for your support!
WSSA President - Dee Alred delia.alred@wssa.us
WSSA Vice President Jim Kingman jim.kingman@wssa.us

 

[mtbarr64]

and 100$ for a snow park permit? is that for 1,2,3,4 or how many. I have 3 different rigs I use--I am not given $300 for snow park permit's for my rigs.

Sorry--but that is the way I feel--always want more money

H20SKE...

You can use the sno-park permit in any vehicle. It is not attached to one vehicle. You just need to display it on the dash.

On your last point. It is called inflation. All the cost continue to rise. I am sure you want your income to keep pace, so expenses keep pace to.

Anyone who thinks they pay too many taxes should look at the Federal Income tax rates pre Ronald Reagan. That is why we no longer can fund what needs to be covered.

Revenue has not kept pace with inflation.

 

[mtbarr64]

How about all of them skatboard parks around our area? Who paid for them? Ya, I feel we need places for kids to get outside and have a safe place to play. But, how many on here ever use one of these places? I don't want to ***** any more than I just did. have a good weekend and get outside to play! -2zeros

Well that is your PRO-FAMILY crowd that you can thank. Everything for the children while they ignore everyone else.

 

[mtbarr64]

Re-elect Governor Rossi

He lost! Just like Gore did in 2000. At least Dino got his day in court without the Supreme Court stopping his case and declaring a winner "for the good of democracy."

 

[mtbarr64]

Sno-park plow money is now gone for the I-90 stretch. Yep, that is what I have been told.

Why? Lots of snow and maybe some bad management of funds. Who knows for sure, but this year we will all see the affects.

There is a mtg today in Woodland where this issue will be dicussed in depth. The only good outcome for this year would be an emergency amount of funds tranferred into the sno-park plowing fund to keep our sno-parks plowed.

Remember it is a record snowfall year. Budgets NEVER account for this kind of activity or we would be paying 3 times what we are now and in most years there would be HUGE surplus.

Unfortunately in government, if you don't use it you lose it because too many people whine about their tax dollars sitting in government rainy day accounts when it could be in their pockets.

You want "efficient" government, this is what you get. Bottom line service.

 

[mtbarr64]

ey---the money was diverted to plowing everything else because of the snow falling.
H20SKE...

Do you have the records to prove this statement?

 

[mdmead]

You can use the sno-park permit in any vehicle. It is not attached to one vehicle. You just need to display it on the dash.

You are supposed to put the vehicle's license number on your Sno-Park permit, meaning it is only to be used in one vehicle.

 

[bleu bayou]

Yeah, READ the instructions.

 

[mdmead]

There is so much wrong info on this thred I dont know where to start. The state doesnt get ANY OF OUR MONEY, It stays in our program, sure we have administration fee's to distribute it, check on it, have meetings about it, ect ect. Nobody is "robbing" us of our money, Do guys have any idea what it cost to keep 120 snoparks open on a year like this thru out the ENTIRE STATE ? Keep in mind this is a state wide program. Whats it cost to rent a D-8 cat with fuel, transportation, driver, insurance ect.?? Some of you are real idiots. I'm sorry but we only have so much money in the winter rec program to cover evey thing from plowing, grooming, out houses, adding more snoparks, ect. Do you think $35 goes as far as it did 6 years ago, Hell no!!!!!!! We'll we bascially have the same money, for all these years, think about it. the only way to keep the program alive and get back to what we had is to raise license fee's. DONT BE STUPID , we used to pay $2.00 for diesel and thought that was insane, now we pay up to $3.50 a gallon. Do you think your plowing and grooming will go farther now?? Sure the program has a few gliches, but take it from one who's been involved and been to more meetings keeping this thing going than you'll ever know, It runs pretty dang good for what we have. It's one of the best run programs in the western US. You've got to look at it state wide, greenwater, crystal springs and st helens arent the only riding areas in the state, It's a state wide program, and bottom line is we need more money in it. NOBODY'S GETTING PAID OFF YOU IDIOTS, GROW UP AND get involved instead of complaining, you will have different out look on our state program.

I find the survey flawed in that one of the responses should be getting the gas tax cap lifted.

Folks need to read and heed JetJohnso as he is one of the most knowledgable about the state program.

The only place he and I differ on view is a registration increase. Personally, I don't think we should pay a dollar more until we get our full gas tax refund. If we then need more money, a registration increase is warranted.

Now the question is.... all of you complaining.... have you contacted your state legislators to get SB 5023 and HB 1405 passed? These bills have been pushed this session and last and haven't been passed. Why? Because the snowmobilers haven't been making the contacts, asking their Senators and Representatives to pass them.

If the current situation doesn't get you motiviated, what will it take?!?!

 

[NW Redneck]

I have a friend that run a groomer one of the problem is the fuel cost alot more now he said. The frist year he ran $5000.00 in fuel cost. That was nine year ago in fuel. These 2007&08 year $24,571.00 in fuel cost for grooming. The same trails. And part don `t ask he said. It all boils down to these. "Thing are going up we just got to match pace".Yes the State has sume problems. For my self I think we should raise lic. & park permits $100.00 both. You Play You Pay Bottom line

 

[Ridersride]

Tabs hmm what are those???

 

[justadude]

I agree 100 %!! pay more to keep it open and to open up lands. That last part is just my pipe dream!!

I would hate to see our season end too soon (especially during a heavy snow year) I like the idea of a expensive sno-park permit (motorized users only) to help cover the rising costs of Plowing/Grooming

What do you all think?

 

[svensdream]

this is all crap! where I come from the tabs are 15$ and the parking is free!! and the trails are ten times better that the grommer operators ever thought about making them. The highway getting there is awesome, these retarted state plows are the worst operators I have ever seen, back home there is ONE truck per 500 miles as we have 20 trucks per 20 miles and they suck! And as for the spandex wearing grape smuging granola eating click-clicks, get bent, go home. Just cuz your special ed doesn't mean you should pay less than us
thanks washington government for giving us the big one!!!

 

[Mt-Adams]

Think we due need to raise lic and snow park permits. "Just my 2 cents"

 

[polar765]

tabs

maybe they could just groom the roads to the good snow ,thats where most people get off anyway ,I am for one retired on a fixed income ,I don't ride groomed trails and don't like paying $ 35 ,the groomer expense is going up as is gas ,price of machines ,oil ,it needs to stop somewhere ,if you want to pay $100 ,make it a donation ,why should I pay for what I don't use ,so someone can ride the groomed trail ? ,