Good on you!! You can't be afraid to warn people of dangers you are aware of. Even if it does offend them. You handled that perfectly!!
How can I help?
- Thread starter CoyoteGirl
- Start date
I really like your approach and plan on copying!! I would ride with you any day!!![/I]
CG---Excellent post.
I am thinking the only way to get this through riders head is for us to pass this along and stress the importance of training and knowledge and PRACTICE.
This I feel is up to those who actually believe or in some of us, Have experianced this (myself,twice in one day). You can not force it on anybody, except those that you ride with.
We can chose who we ride with. I have a quick little meeting before we all mount up to attack the hill for the day about the conditions and what is expected of all riding in our group. If I see conditions changing in a new area during the day--I talk with everyone to make sure we update the rules for the day.
As we all know--stupid is not a excuse nor ignorance. When someone else's actions can get mme killed--it is no longer a option as far as I am concerned. If I see someone riding hills that I feel they should not, I will mention it to them and why. It is not just them, but their freinds as well they are affecting(as earlier stated).
We have to educate from within--self education and pass it along to others.
That is the great thing about the nation we live in---FREEDOM of choice. Trying to make something mandatory with purchase of a sled or registration of a sled is wrong. Great idea in theory, but not right. This has to be voluntary--otherwise it will do no good--they will not obide by what they have been forced to do.
CG--You have tackled a tough idea here --Think back to what it took you to come around to reality about this. We are battleing the biggest falicy out there--IT WONT HAPPEN TO ME!!
Example and be loud and outspoken I feel is the best way--and invite your freinds to these classes when they are going on--in fact go with them.
My .02
Thanks for your efforts CG
H20SKE...
I would go as far as to say---I would rather be NAGGED before and after every ride for 1 hour ---than get the government involved!!
Thanks---It works well--I have only offended a few--but they rode with me anyways--somedays I am more of a prick than others.
Look forward to the day we ride together.
H20SKE...
ttt....great great thread
Brandy, these are some really tough questions that many people have been searching for answers for a long time.
I believe all comes down to awareness.
As mentioned by a few others below, I think a HUGE sign in big bold RED letters at every applicable trailhead stating "You are entering Avalanche Terrain" would catch people's attention. There may be liability around accuracy with posting the current avalanche forecast. The phone number for our local forecast service instead would be great.
This isn't a new idea but now here is my twist. Have you seen those signs along the freeway that say how many deer have been hit by a car so far this year (Mazama for Washington locals)? Do the same on these signs but for all avalanche deaths in North America. Also keep a running history of previous years, much like a memorial. I know when I drive by those deer signs my awareness goes through the roof. I think this could really help. It also has to be in huge print and the main focus of the sign.
Avalanche Related Deaths This Year : 13
2007-2008 season : 20
2006-2007 season : 18
Of course in smaller print provide a list of essential survival gear and contact information for training etc. Most hiking trails have simple info like this. There is no reason snowmobile trails shouldn't too.
Another idea: When snowmobile clubs have poker runs etc, add some avalanche awareness and beacon finding tasks into those events. Heck you could even get creative with new events that promote awareness on the mountain and have prizes etc. Kind of like a treasure hunt where people have to ride in their local area and take pictures of different risks and signs that exist (terrain traps, slopes of certain inclination, avalanche debris, trees with missing uphill branches) find beacons and follow it up with a party w/ prizes etc. With enough creative thought around putting a good event together and some good prizes I think you may even attract people that are not currently part of the clubs.
I'll keep thinking, but these are two that come to mind tonight.
I believe all comes down to awareness.
As mentioned by a few others below, I think a HUGE sign in big bold RED letters at every applicable trailhead stating "You are entering Avalanche Terrain" would catch people's attention. There may be liability around accuracy with posting the current avalanche forecast. The phone number for our local forecast service instead would be great.
This isn't a new idea but now here is my twist. Have you seen those signs along the freeway that say how many deer have been hit by a car so far this year (Mazama for Washington locals)? Do the same on these signs but for all avalanche deaths in North America. Also keep a running history of previous years, much like a memorial. I know when I drive by those deer signs my awareness goes through the roof. I think this could really help. It also has to be in huge print and the main focus of the sign.
Avalanche Related Deaths This Year : 13
2007-2008 season : 20
2006-2007 season : 18
Of course in smaller print provide a list of essential survival gear and contact information for training etc. Most hiking trails have simple info like this. There is no reason snowmobile trails shouldn't too.
Another idea: When snowmobile clubs have poker runs etc, add some avalanche awareness and beacon finding tasks into those events. Heck you could even get creative with new events that promote awareness on the mountain and have prizes etc. Kind of like a treasure hunt where people have to ride in their local area and take pictures of different risks and signs that exist (terrain traps, slopes of certain inclination, avalanche debris, trees with missing uphill branches) find beacons and follow it up with a party w/ prizes etc. With enough creative thought around putting a good event together and some good prizes I think you may even attract people that are not currently part of the clubs.
I'll keep thinking, but these are two that come to mind tonight.
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I do think short, approx 1 hour, free classes are a good idea. They would be used kind of like a teaser to get people interested in more advanced training. My wife coordinates the free clinics at the Issaquah REI and tomorrow's free avalanche clinic will be standing room only. It is easy to get people to a free event, tough to have them shell out $$.
Here's another idea, and this is a bit out there so it would need some fine tuning by good minds. It would likely be driven through a snowmobile club and could attract new members.
What if you had a raffle for some good prizes at the end of the season and to get entered into the raffle you need to spread avalanche awareness. The more awareness you spread the more times you get to enter your name in the hat. This could be done with cool awareness stickers on sleds. This way you could see who has already received awareness and who hasn't. Now, if you out riding with somone new, or meet someone on a trail that doesn't have the sticker, you can ask if they are interested in getting into the avalanche awareness raffle. If so, give them a sticker and some info on the raffle. To qualify they need to contact the snowmobile club and register, provide the name or entry number of who gave it to them, and get some of their own stickers and info to spread out. Following registration they could be given some brief yet powerful statistics about avalanches and info on training. People who attend training would get more raffle entries automatically. The raffle fee could be $5 or $10 and how nice the prizes were would certainly depend on the entries. What if it got big enough to fund the raffle of a new sled or a trip to a great sledding destination??
I think it is an interesting idea, and with one raffle fee you can get lots more chances to win if you help spread awareness. The backend registration/tracking process would need to be ironed out and also some thoughts around preventing people from cheating the system through loopholes.
This is a pretty involved idea, but would be fun to do within or between clubs. I think it would also add to comradery in the backcountry when you saw people with stickers for the current year and even past years if it was sucessful.
Once again, this is a new "immature" idea thought of late at night but by putting some good creative minds together it could have some potential in spreading awareness. I think the reward of a nice prize, and perhaps aknowledgment of how everyone did at an end of the season bbq bash, would start to make this process of education more fun and enticing to a broader range of people.
Here's another idea, and this is a bit out there so it would need some fine tuning by good minds. It would likely be driven through a snowmobile club and could attract new members.
What if you had a raffle for some good prizes at the end of the season and to get entered into the raffle you need to spread avalanche awareness. The more awareness you spread the more times you get to enter your name in the hat. This could be done with cool awareness stickers on sleds. This way you could see who has already received awareness and who hasn't. Now, if you out riding with somone new, or meet someone on a trail that doesn't have the sticker, you can ask if they are interested in getting into the avalanche awareness raffle. If so, give them a sticker and some info on the raffle. To qualify they need to contact the snowmobile club and register, provide the name or entry number of who gave it to them, and get some of their own stickers and info to spread out. Following registration they could be given some brief yet powerful statistics about avalanches and info on training. People who attend training would get more raffle entries automatically. The raffle fee could be $5 or $10 and how nice the prizes were would certainly depend on the entries. What if it got big enough to fund the raffle of a new sled or a trip to a great sledding destination??
I think it is an interesting idea, and with one raffle fee you can get lots more chances to win if you help spread awareness. The backend registration/tracking process would need to be ironed out and also some thoughts around preventing people from cheating the system through loopholes.
This is a pretty involved idea, but would be fun to do within or between clubs. I think it would also add to comradery in the backcountry when you saw people with stickers for the current year and even past years if it was sucessful.
Once again, this is a new "immature" idea thought of late at night but by putting some good creative minds together it could have some potential in spreading awareness. I think the reward of a nice prize, and perhaps aknowledgment of how everyone did at an end of the season bbq bash, would start to make this process of education more fun and enticing to a broader range of people.
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S
Soccerd6
Well-known member
no...... say it isn't so!!
Good ideas, folks!!
I still say we should tie club charter to avalanche awareness.... but state associations would need to step up for this one.... heck - state DOT funds from US govt. are tied to minimum drinking age.... As club members, we should hold our clubs accountable to this challenge - association involvement or not - again, I'm lucky - NW Glacier Cruisers understands the importance of avy training....
people say they talk about avy awareness with the group prior to each ride - this is good, but I don't think it happens as often as we intend to or to the degree we should.... we - and I include me in that we - need to be far more dilligent with this....
Steve and I carry an extra beacon in the truck, and we have loaned it out - but we need to take it a step further and make sure that person knows how to use it - and my last class showed me that the few minutes in the parking lot I was taking to educate in those rare cases we've loaned it out to folks who didn't own a beacon was not enough....
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frock
Well-known member
Great Posts All
You started a great thread CG and there are some equally great posts in here, thanks to all.
I've been riding in the mountains for over 40 years, starting in the Yukon Territory where I was born and raised. I've been in 4 avalanches during this time and never completely buried (this was in my earlier, invincible, slow learner time). I've seen many avalanches and assisted in helping rescue a few people and a few bodies. Every time is a terrible experience. If more people experienced this I am certain it would change some attitudes from "I've gotta get the highest mark today" to "Today isn't the day to be anywhere near this hill".
There is a few positives that I have seen over the past 10 to 15 years or so. Beacons, probes and shovels used to be the exception. 15 years ago when I asked someone riding here that I hadn't seen before, where's your safety gear they would go, HUH what's that? Now, most carry it and most that don't, they know what I'm talking about, but choose to be idiots.
I think education is the best way to try to avoid these incidents. I was very fortunate to survive the "school of hard knocks", lots of peeps do not. I don't think it is possible to completely avoid avalanches because we are all human. Some will listen and here that there are people who need you to come home and unfortunately there are some who won't, no matter how loudly you tell them.
To those that will listen, ride safe all and I hope the rest of this season is better than the beginning.
My 2 Cents, Cheers;
Shane
You started a great thread CG and there are some equally great posts in here, thanks to all.
I've been riding in the mountains for over 40 years, starting in the Yukon Territory where I was born and raised. I've been in 4 avalanches during this time and never completely buried (this was in my earlier, invincible, slow learner time). I've seen many avalanches and assisted in helping rescue a few people and a few bodies. Every time is a terrible experience. If more people experienced this I am certain it would change some attitudes from "I've gotta get the highest mark today" to "Today isn't the day to be anywhere near this hill".
There is a few positives that I have seen over the past 10 to 15 years or so. Beacons, probes and shovels used to be the exception. 15 years ago when I asked someone riding here that I hadn't seen before, where's your safety gear they would go, HUH what's that? Now, most carry it and most that don't, they know what I'm talking about, but choose to be idiots.
I think education is the best way to try to avoid these incidents. I was very fortunate to survive the "school of hard knocks", lots of peeps do not. I don't think it is possible to completely avoid avalanches because we are all human. Some will listen and here that there are people who need you to come home and unfortunately there are some who won't, no matter how loudly you tell them.
To those that will listen, ride safe all and I hope the rest of this season is better than the beginning.
My 2 Cents, Cheers;
Shane
Brandy - Great Post.
I have an idea for you. You are good with a camera and it looks like you also know how to set up a web page. What if you used these skills to build a comprehensive on-line avalanche course/info page. One that would be specific to sledders. With all of the time you spend in the field, you could document examples to help people identify risk. Pillows, terrain traps, and real world examples of how to approach an area that is a bad terrrain trap in the safest way. After all, there are several areas that all of us ride through to get where we are going that are dangerous. Real world examples of what we tend to do vs. what we should do.
Just thinking out loud. The great thing is you don't have to put it all together, there is a lot of material out there and it would primarily be a task of organizing the information and adapting some of it for sledders. Add a catchy slogan that all sledders could use to remind each other to ride safe/avalanche aware that was tied to your site and everything you teach and I think you'd have a home run.
Cheers!
Chris
I have an idea for you. You are good with a camera and it looks like you also know how to set up a web page. What if you used these skills to build a comprehensive on-line avalanche course/info page. One that would be specific to sledders. With all of the time you spend in the field, you could document examples to help people identify risk. Pillows, terrain traps, and real world examples of how to approach an area that is a bad terrrain trap in the safest way. After all, there are several areas that all of us ride through to get where we are going that are dangerous. Real world examples of what we tend to do vs. what we should do.
Just thinking out loud. The great thing is you don't have to put it all together, there is a lot of material out there and it would primarily be a task of organizing the information and adapting some of it for sledders. Add a catchy slogan that all sledders could use to remind each other to ride safe/avalanche aware that was tied to your site and everything you teach and I think you'd have a home run.
Cheers!
Chris
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IMO, I think that is a cop out.... There is lots and lots of good info on the web. Reading terrain and identifying risk isn't snowboarder / skier / snowmobiler specific. The snow / terrain / weather is what the focus is on.
IMO, creating a website while good, doesn't solve the issue and problem at hand, which is getting people to give a crap.
NWAC Avalanche Accident Data
A
Adrenaline Revolution
Well-known member
Unfortunately, It takes a tragedy to someone we've talked to or know well, or even just know a little bit to wake some people up to the reality that this DOES happen and the hillside does not know that it will never happen to you...
The hillside doesn't care who you are.
It took a tragic movie to push me over the edge. (Dozen more turns)
I'm sure Dave's death caused MANY more to get educated.
I don't see many snowboarders/skiers sitting at the base of a hill watching to see if their buddy is able to climb out the top. I also do not see many snow boarders riding back up the hill to help dig out their buddy whom is stuck in the middle of the hill......there are differences, of course reading terrain is the same for all of us.
Solving the issue?...... I thought she asked for ideas on how she could help. I don't think anyone here would believe that they could solve this problem.
I'm a little confused about how helping educate people is a cop out......thats really all you can do. I have ridden (just 2 weeks ago) with a group that carries no avy equipment. And they have been riding for 15+ years. One of them was buried in an avalanche 2 years ago and they were lucky enough to find his boot sticking out and dug him up. They still don't carry equipment. And they still bang hills. It's not really that they just don't care, they just don't believe they are going to get killed. Heck, they dug their buddy out and he is fine!
Maybe if someone took the time to dig a pit (or educate them on how to dig a pit) and let them take a look at some of the layers that are down there, they might actually start to believe that there are hidden dangers that they cannot predict or see. Maybe if they understood what a terrain trap is, it might make them nervous when they found themselves in the vicinity of one.
Regardless, it's an idea for Brandy. I never said "I have the best idea" or even a good idea. Just an idea. Brandy asked what she could do to help. I thought about it and that is what I came up with....and I based it on intrests that I know she already has (photography, riding and web page design). Seemed logical anyway.
Cheers!
Chris
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C
CoyoteGirl
Well-known member
Thanks for the input Chris. You actually put some thought into your reply and my question.
BTW, that rider w/o beacon that was buried 2 years ago....... that wasn't JEFF was it? Either way... I'd think being buried would WAKE YOU UP! JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES (but this is also a GREAT example of sledder mentality!)
There is no solving this issue, there are humans involved! I want to help minimize the numbers.
Here's my selfish part. I wanna help SLEDDERS, because this is MY community and with each passing year it is getting smaller (meaning I've met THOUSANDS of you....) and this is the community that I want to expend MY energy on.
And I do think it has to be sledder specific in that we have a WHOLE different mentality than the other winter back country enthusiasts! I also feel we have a whole different mechanism that can get us into trouble SO much faster and easier than say a back country skier..... I catch myself just going and playing enjoying myself and all of a sudden I look at my surroundings and wonder "how did I get here!??" I think with "by foot" type of travel you have so much more time to pay attention to more details of your surroundings.
You actually put some thought into your reply and my question. BTW, that rider w/o beacon that was buried 2 years ago....... that wasn't JEFF was it?
Either way... I'd think being buried would WAKE YOU UP! JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES (but this is also a GREAT example of sledder mentality!)There is no solving this issue, there are humans involved! I want to help minimize the numbers.
Here's my selfish part. I wanna help SLEDDERS, because this is MY community and with each passing year it is getting smaller (meaning I've met THOUSANDS of you....) and this is the community that I want to expend MY energy on.
And I do think it has to be sledder specific in that we have a WHOLE different mentality than the other winter back country enthusiasts! I also feel we have a whole different mechanism that can get us into trouble SO much faster and easier than say a back country skier..... I catch myself just going and playing enjoying myself and all of a sudden I look at my surroundings and wonder "how did I get here!??" I think with "by foot" type of travel you have so much more time to pay attention to more details of your surroundings.
C
CoyoteGirl
Well-known member
MAYBE if peeps saw the aftermath of wives being told their husbands aren't coming home, the kids screaming for their parents who aren't coming home, a best friend's gutteral yell while trying to dig their friend out or other REAL life documentation it would change someone's mind?
I am not really a big fan of this new youtube era where you can see ANYTHING happen, but maybe just maybe if some of these things were caught on helmet cam of other versions and posted AND some of these more stubborn types were to watch..... maybe the shock factor would work?
I remember having to tell someone who refused to wear a beacon that if one of our riding crew died because he didn't care enough to wear and use a beacon to find this person I'd NEVER EVER forgive him. He bought and learned to use a beacon.
Maybe a change can only start small and starts with YOU (me) and then those closest to us (my best and favorite riding partner) and then branching out from there.
I'm kind of starting to see avalanches as suicide. When I was young a friend tried to commit suicide and my mom sat me down for a talk. She told me that (in her eyes) suicide was the most selfish act on earth, it took away from those still alive. That is what these avalanche deaths are doing.... taking away from those left behind. Even if YOU die doing what you love, YOU are taking away from those left behind.
Think about it...........
My rambling for this very sad day.
I am not really a big fan of this new youtube era where you can see ANYTHING happen, but maybe just maybe if some of these things were caught on helmet cam of other versions and posted AND some of these more stubborn types were to watch..... maybe the shock factor would work?
I remember having to tell someone who refused to wear a beacon that if one of our riding crew died because he didn't care enough to wear and use a beacon to find this person I'd NEVER EVER forgive him. He bought and learned to use a beacon.
Maybe a change can only start small and starts with YOU (me) and then those closest to us (my best and favorite riding partner) and then branching out from there.
I'm kind of starting to see avalanches as suicide. When I was young a friend tried to commit suicide and my mom sat me down for a talk. She told me that (in her eyes) suicide was the most selfish act on earth, it took away from those still alive. That is what these avalanche deaths are doing.... taking away from those left behind. Even if YOU die doing what you love, YOU are taking away from those left behind.
Think about it...........
My rambling for this very sad day.
TTT.....You help by staying on the message.
You treat it like those " Meth Commercials" that pound away at society during prime time TV
OT
You treat it like those " Meth Commercials" that pound away at society during prime time TV
OT
R
Rock Star
Well-known member
I am with you 1000%, B. and I agree w/OT. Repitition! one at a time people ARE listening and learning. I have had pm's from people thanking me/us for beating the drum!! Keep it up. This is another sad day and weekend in a terrible year. Yet we rode safe today and savored the beauty and the friendships and we'll ride again, and again, and again!
Rock, we had a safe day and savored it as well. 80 degrees here in Newport Beach.
OT
OT
R
Red-eye
Well-known member
Out for two days this weekend. It was easy to decide the best thing to do this year for sure is to stay away from everything that could slide, trail rides only for me. Everywhere we looked there was an avy and every where we dug was sugar. All avys went down to the rocks. And this is not going to get better all season. I have never seen a year like this in my 36 years on the snow. I guess loosing 6 good friends this year made me think. Sure miss those boys.
Good thread
Good thread
G
girlpowder
Guest
TTT for the shock factor!!
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