How can I help?

[summitone]

Good post CG.

Unfortunatly, all the training and equipment just isn't enough. Sometimes brains don't think right and sometimes just bad luck. I'd lean towards 75% not using their heads thou.

 

[snojunkee]

respect

we all need to respect the terrain and each other.one thing that has made me think is putting myself in others shoes.after watching the avalanche survivors tell thier story of how they had to dig thier dead buddy out and leave them on the hill,or evacuate the area because it was too unstable while their friend is pleading for them not to leave him there.i don't know about you'all,but i don't want to go through something like that.I LOVE SLEDDING,but i'm afraid something like that would take away the good feeling it gives meas far as i'm concerned,when the avy danger is high i'll stay home and mod something,and if you're my freind i'll suggest you do the same.there will always be tomorrow.thanks for bringing this subject up c.g.ride safe,have fun!

 

[Rock Star]

Thank you. Good post Brandy. You are uniquely qualified to ask the question. You were there when Dave died. Less than a year later you were there when Keith was buried and rescued. Lessons learned that mattered. Keep teaching. every ONE person you get to or we get to is ONE less that can ever fall victim to themselves. One at a time. All that you have reached is already impressive. xo One at a time.

 

[mod03rmk800]

Get and keep the info and training available. The more people that are exposed to something the more they think about it. This is not an overnight fix. It will take a long time for the fact of the matter to be realized by the masses. Look at the seat belt issues. A lot of people are wearing them now many don't.
In reality there will always be avalanche fatalities associated with back country winter use. It always carries some extent of danger.
The best thing that I took away from my avy training was looking for the terrain traps around me and listening to the advisories.
I personally have to look to find avy courses and wish somehow they could be held locally at the start of the season and advertised somehow better.

 

[Spud]

got this off Sunridges profile and about says it all.

 

[H20SKE]

CG---Excellent post.

I am thinking the only way to get this through riders head is for us to pass this along and stress the importance of training and knowledge and PRACTICE.

This I feel is up to those who actually believe or in some of us, Have experianced this (myself,twice in one day). You can not force it on anybody, except those that you ride with.

We can chose who we ride with. I have a quick little meeting before we all mount up to attack the hill for the day about the conditions and what is expected of all riding in our group. If I see conditions changing in a new area during the day--I talk with everyone to make sure we update the rules for the day.
As we all know--stupid is not a excuse nor ignorance. When someone else's actions can get mme killed--it is no longer a option as far as I am concerned. If I see someone riding hills that I feel they should not, I will mention it to them and why. It is not just them, but their freinds as well they are affecting(as earlier stated).

We have to educate from within--self education and pass it along to others.

That is the great thing about the nation we live in---FREEDOM of choice. Trying to make something mandatory with purchase of a sled or registration of a sled is wrong. Great idea in theory, but not right. This has to be voluntary--otherwise it will do no good--they will not obide by what they have been forced to do.

CG--You have tackled a tough idea here --Think back to what it took you to come around to reality about this. We are battleing the biggest falicy out there--IT WONT HAPPEN TO ME!!

Example and be loud and outspoken I feel is the best way--and invite your freinds to these classes when they are going on--in fact go with them.

My .02

Thanks for your efforts CG

H20SKE...

 

[sled.man]

Lets Ride Another Day

brandy
I have lost two very dear to me. One in 2003 was family and in 2004 was a family friend. I started wearing a beacon and shovels back around 97 long before it was fashoinable for most snowmobilers. I helped educate these young lads into wearing beacons, but they didnt have the formal avy education to help them out of the dangerous situations that they got themselves into. Neither was killed on a high or extreme avalanche danger day. They were both killed when the danger was considerable.

Looking backwards, this is the danger level that is most lethal because most sledders get complacent and let their guard down. also the riding companions of both were not prepared for the rescue. Andrew and Dez both had the gear to dig, but the riding partners did not have the proper gear for rescue.
Please wear the proper gear. I dont wear my beacon for me. If i was to come upon an accident scene, I want to be able to save someone. I dont want to think "only if i would have been Prepared".

Snowmobiling is a very fun and safe sport if you pay attention to safety. It is safer than driving the car on the freeway if you follow the safety codes, but very dangerous if you dont follow the rules.

Please check the avy forecast daily and carry proper safety gear including avy gear, maps, fire starters, rescue gear for others and other equipment to spend the night outside.

Mick

PS Watch "A Dozen More Turns" video With Sam Kavanaugh. Look for a "Cat Woman" post to Access the Link to movie

 

[Snowbyrd]

Nothing can Prevent these Avalanches from Killing People in the Backcountry, The only way would be to create sculpted terrain parks on flat ground, and who wants that. The Mountains we all love have Avalanches weather we are there or not. We can only Limit the numbers by education and safety. Some care more about safety than others and I think involving the Government to keep us safe will lead to the closing down of All the areas that could be dangerous.... Just look at how Quickly they shut down I-90 when the Risk of a slide goes from 0 to about 10% and it is a friggen main Highway that is necessary, not a recreational sport.

Certain actions can increase the risk that you will be involved in an avy and for me, Ignorance was a main factor in the avy I was caught in. We all have to make the decision to get more education on the type of terrain we ride in and when the conditions are too bad to venture into those spots. We all need to make the smart decisions, Especially when Temptation makes it almost impossible to do so. (Live to ride another day)

With today's high performance machines and their ability, I would like to see a program from all 4 sled manufactures to make a beacon and a Avy Class (any skill level) standard equipment. It would add very little to the cost and would educate way more people than almost any other method.

In the world where we have a way better chance of dying in a auto accident than being killed in an avalanche, I would rather stop driving than sledding....The cost of living is dying, Everybody Pays! It sure would suck to give up sledding and die doing something mundane!

The answer is simple: Learn the risk and how to avoid them, after that it's up to destiny.

 

[gusto]

I have to say something to the positive side..Because of sites like this there is more awareness for Avvy safety than ever before ... A lot of people do not agree in witch way to deal with the problem, but at least it is being discussed in masses ...Progression,101

 

[ruffryder]

Difficult questions... I think the best answer for lasting effect is to lead by example, which you and many that have posted are already doing. Granted it is a slow process, and takes time. We snowmobilers, as a group, are slowly getting to the point of understanding mountain and snow safety...

 

[Soccerd6]

Maybe work with the FS, sno clubs, etc to provide a sign leaving the sno park that informes people the avy danger for the day. I know I forget to check sometimes but that reminder might be the last bit of info to persuade a rider? Food for thought!

At the Brundrage snopark at McCall the first thing you see is a sign with the phone number for the avy report.... good reminder in the event we forgot to check.

many have suggested requiring training before you can register a sled.... I have 5 sleds, and I'm the one to register them. We have only 2 sledders that live at home - how would I register them?

many have suggested making avy equipment standard when purchasing a sled.... again, w/out training, useless (more than useless - false sense of security is dangerous....)

I think by all of us nagging and nagging and nagging we might get the msg out.... and refusing to ride with folks who are not prepared....

How can the training be made more available? - by that I mean many things, including maybe even lowering the $$.... get clubs to sponsor and subsidize the training - make the training a social event (NW Glacier Cruisers is good on doing this one). Make it so it's all but impossible to pass up. Maybe in order to be considered a snowmobile club, part of your "charter" is to host an avy training - don't do it and you won't be able to be called a "club".... that would require some reulating by the state associations, but it's a thought....

apologize for the random thoughts and not very well organized.... thx Brandy for starting this....

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

Difficult questions... I think the best answer for lasting effect is to lead by example, which you and many that have posted are already doing. Granted it is a slow process, and takes time. We snowmobilers, as a group, are slowly getting to the point of understanding mountain and snow safety...

Exactly.
One thing really bothers me though, and many of you are saying it.

How do you teach folks or give them the good example if you refuse to ride with them because they didn't buy the equipment or take part in training?

I swear, some of the attitudes many here are taking about this WILL be looked upon by those who have not felt the need yet to purchase the equip and training as nothing more than "Holier than thou" or just plain "Too good to ride with them"

Just playing Devil's advocate with those statements but that's how many would perceive it so stop preparing to flame me.

Some people learn new things differently than others.
There is no one way to properly teach all people

How about this for a solution to getting the word out to some of the people who don't have the knowledge or equip yet...

Take them riding with you, explain where you'll be going, teach them a little (introductory) about avy's and rescue, show them your beacon and equipment for rescue, tell them a little about how it's used then go riding with them.

DON'T take them into an unstable area at all and avoid areas that could possibly slide. (No-Brainer)

Point out areas that are possible slide areas as you ride along and if there are no real threats for avy's that day then explain that the conditions are not conducive for a slide that day and you would normally play on that hill there, and how much fun the terrain is at that spot but since they are not prepared you can't in all good conscience, take them to play there.

Don't come across as a sled snob or an elitist because that is how many will perceive you.
Just explain that you are concerned for their (and your) safety and offer to help them find a good deal on a beacon for the next ride.

Some folks will not get the classroom training for various reasons so those of us who have had it MUST try to pass it on and teach it as best we can.

I believe I could do a pretty good job to help pass on the knowledge I have attained from the training I've received.

Sometimes the best lessons are learned from good friends who care.

 

[IceCap]

Thank-you very much Brandy for starting this post. First of all I would like to say regardless of what we do or impose on riders we will never eliminate deaths from avalanches, however we sure could reduce them. Education, responsiblity and enforcement all will work and have to work together.
I do not want and or promote any more government involvment in our lives than there allready is with that said, I do think that sled registration should be mandatory and stiff fines imposed if caught without.
Instead of the the lame registry we have now (In B.C.) they could make it that inorder for the sled to be registered the owner is required to present evidence of a avy course and required safety gear.
I know some have mentioned that they own more than one sled and that someone else will be riding their other sleds and not the owner, well then it is still the owners responsibilty to know who he lets ride his other sleds (education)
Also we ( the northamerican sledding community) could form an association with members from bothsides of the border..... and membership could have it's priveliges.
Like buying groups, discounts, advertisers, our own website.
This group could have a standardized creed and purpose.... bearing a name (decal) on sleds that shows other sledders that you are serious about safety and this sport.
Then all sledders regardless of where you ride or are from are recognized as a safety conscience, properly trained and follow a set of standards.
I know we could be doing a lot with local clubs, I just think that you will never acheive a proper set of standards.
Then when you meet up with some riders in the mountains that have the decal and they want to hook up and ride for the day you will have a better understanding of their comittment to the safety of mountain riding.
Also you will be able to ask a lot of questions to the riders that ( want to hook up and ride for the day) and do not bear the decal.
These are just some of my thoughts.

 

[CatWoman]

Good thread Brandy....and am very glad to see you step up to try to help others like this.

I also got the gear and made sure my family was set up at the beginning of winter in 1997. Having a brother buried later that season by someone who cut up above him, then took off (luckily he lived), and losing a cousin within 2 weeks of that....well that was enough to set me on my crusade to try to do something.

Raising awareness is not an easy task. It does take places like this, and out in everyday life. Just keep talking about it. It does work well to make sure those you ride with have the gear and know how to use it.....and that they take a course. No one wants to be left out of the group, so while not always effective, more times than not it does prompt them to get educated. I've been saying for a long time now that a trench is a great place to check the snow layers. Lunchtime, great time to hide a beacon and take turns finding it, then re-hiding it for the next person, and so on.

There are generational gaps, parents who haven't taught their children (or aren't teaching them), the *older* generation who never had this worry or gave it any thought, those new to the sport, and those coming from the flatlands to ride the mountains.

We have FREE classes here, and yet they are not that well attended. FREE basic classes, and FREE Level 1 courses. Our club does make sure we have at least one avy class each season, and also in conjunction with GCAC, to do some hands on stuff during the monthly Family Day rides.

I joined our local Avy Center, and sit on the Board of Directors. We are looking at the very same thing. One thing we (GCAC), the Forest Service, and some of the schools, are teaming up to do, is to try educating starting at school. Get them when they are young, and more open minded. We are working at tailoring a program that will fit the age group (it may need tweaking here and there, but we have a good model to follow). This will be good for the kids who may never be taught otherwise, and I also believe some of it will filter back to the parents (ie. kids asking their parents if they are being safe, etc.)

It is a tough challenge, and one just wishes that they could reach everyone. It does help to have snowmobilers trying to educate snowmobilers (then it's not looked at as skiers telling those whom ride sleds what to do).

Here is an example of a day last year when the avy danger raised overnight (no new report out). The hubby and I were going to go riding. We offloaded our sleds, and were all geared up. Soon found out there were slides across the groomed trail (have to take that sometimes to get off trail). We chose to stay in the parking lot, and go talk to the people in every vehicle that pulled in. We didn't tell them not to ride, just that the danger was high that day......just gave them the facts. We also asked about gear. About half of the folks left, the others still went. I'll never forget one group of young men. They told us where they were going riding (saying it was safe, when in fact there were many slopes that could have slid). As they were walking away from us, I heard one guy say "I don't want to die". He was riding with 3 other guys who overrode him, and didn't take his concern seriously (they all came in the same truck). I worried about him more than anyone else that day. It was interesting to hear and see the dynamics at work with how groups made the decision to ride, or to bag it and come back on a better day. Probably the best one for me were the guys that drove 4 hours to come ride here (from Spokane), but decided their lives were more important, and turned around and left.

You just keep plugging away.....trying to get more feedback, trying to reach more folks, trying to make a difference. I wish it were easier, but most of the time it's an uphill battle. Pictures and video do help. Whenever it's safe to do so, I take pics of slides. I pass these along to be used in presentations. I think one thing that really helps is for folks to see pics of slides across a groomed trail. Most people associate a groomed trail as being a total safe zone. When they see the groomed trail isn't always safe, it opens their eyes to what's out there in the backcountry, and starts many thinking.

Sorry so long winded here.....this is one of my passions (besides riding). Live to ride another day.....

 

[IceCap]

Forgot to mention a large association (North american) could also have influence on riding areas, snowmobile manufactures as in more safety and design features. IE built in GPS, spot etc..etc.

 

[CoyoteGirl]

if you got this from another post i think my friend said AVOIDABLE

Actually I did mean to say UNAVOIDABLE accident, as that is how people see them. I want to help change that thought process to they are AVOIDABLE. And as the saying goes "if a human is involved in an avalanche a mistake has been made".

CG--You have tackled a tough idea here --Think back to what it took you to come around to reality about this.
H20SKE...

Yup. And because of that I want to help others to not have to follow the same path to start seeking education. I made my mistakes....... hopefully others can learn in a BETTER FASHION! lol I am not perfect, there are chances that I'll be involved in another avalanche in my life. So I am NOT trying to get up on my pedastal and look down on peeps! Not at all! Even if you are a bad example... you can lead by example....


Sledders have a me me me mentality and that is one of the scarier things here. "my destiny my life my choices"

I want expand upon this, because your/ my destiny and choices has a farther reaching impact than just you/me. Yes you have the power to make choices for you, but if you think that you are the only one effected........... ya, no.

2 examples:

Last year I was stuck on a hill at Bear Paw, 2' of new snow, on a hill with a convex aspect. I'm getting myself unstuck and 2 riders decide to hit the hill with me there, stuck. If THEY had triggered a slide, I possibly could have paid for THEIR actions/ choices. Their destiny becoming mine too, possibly. We can pick who we ride with, but there is still a chance that a total stranger can change your life up there.

2nd example. Being involved in Dave and Keith's burials, it might have been THEIR destiny to be buried that day. But both had a HUGE effect up on me and others that were involved. Keith survived, so that is a good ending. However I know some are still effected to this day by his blue face that we unburied. And most know the effect that Dave's destiny had, it left behind a single mother of 3. Among other permanent scars for many people.

So, when saying it could be my destiny, we need to think beyond ourselves. Brent and I discussed this last night. I asked him "do you realize if something happens to me YOU have to call my mom?" And the look on his face was definitely not a good one!

I remember a post a few years ago of someone who died on the hill, don't remember if it was an avalanche or just an accident. They left behind a wife and a young daughter. I remember reading that it took the mom a few days to tell her daughter that dad would never be coming home again. I don't have kids............ but that breaks my heart! But, I'll stop there because this is getting to the line of preaching.

Once again, I'm not saying QUIT riding, quit taking risks, quit anything. HECK NO. I'm not even telling you to stay home on high risk days! I, personally, don't ever want to live life in a bubble, I WANT TO TRULY LIVE LIFE!

I'm not really leaning towards any kind of government involvement in this. HOWEVER, if you ride a motorcycle do you not have to take some sort of class in order to get your endorsement????????????

knmac, as morbid as that sounds... you could be on to something. I know seeing a baby born has stopped me from ever wanting to get pregnant! hehe

Fatrunt, let me know what you come up with. I know it is hard for the families, but as Animal's wife told me after we got Keith out ALIVE, "Dave's death wasn't in vain if it helped you save that young man's life".

And in the end, I'm asking for your help...................

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

One more thing I forgot to mention in my prior post...

No more Government regulation into our sport or our machines...PERIOD

They are screwing things up bad enough with what control they already have.

I would much rather be coached and asked to be careful by a friend or loved one than be told I must be careful by a Government official under penalty for non-compliance.

Keep them the *$@#^ out of it!

 

[Ice Cap]

I find it amazing that people think that once they are wearing a beacon, carrying a shovel and probe that they are now safe in avy country.

I have spent many years riding and believe that I have finally discovered the secret to staying safe from avy danger.
Other than the odd slide that occasionally happens when the avy danger is low, there are just three basic rules to staying alive.

1) Check the avy forecast before each and every ride.
2) Don't for one second think that you are smarter than the people that provide the forecast.
3) When the forecast says that there might be avy's that particular day just stay the he!! away from the hills.

In my opinion I don't think you have to be very smart to follow those rules but I could be wrong.

P.S. That one little poke at the hill you take on the way back out on those days when the forecast is high is usually the one you read about that killed someone!

Edit: Forgot to mention that I have been carrying avy safety gear over 15 years now.

 

[Rock Star]

This dialoge makes people think. That is step one.. thinking.

 

[Pastor]

We all need to share alll the information we possibly can about avalanches and avalanche deaths.

Being able to see with your own eyes the slides, terrain that slid, actually going to the sites that have taken lives has helped me a lot. I used to think that avalache death was just not a real threat in my situation but since have found out I was wrong!!

I have very much appreciated the Avy classes that I have taken. I would really like to see an on the mountain training that trains us how to test the snow and interpret what we are seeing.

Lately I have decided to talk to people on the mountain even if it irritates them. If I KNOW something is dangerous and likely to avalanche I am saying something. I offended some guys the other day, I apologized for offending them but told them I just could not ride away without caring enough about them to warn them. They quickly saw that I had their best interests in mind and thanked me for the warning.