How can I help?

[CoyoteGirl]

I have recently gotten involved with avalanche awareness training and my mind is a whirl with all these latest incidents (both avalanche and regular sled related injuries/ deaths) of how to stop this!

Preaching doesn't work.

Deaths don't work.

OT's pot stirring bad boyness doesn't work.

Begging doesn't work.

My question is, HOW CAN WE HELP change some minds and maybe change some lives?

How can we make it cool (instead of “who brought the worry wart?”) to step up and take better responsibility for yourself and your group in the back country?

How can we help you make better decisions?

How can we help you justify spend some money on education and equipment to save you and others lots of heart ache?

How can we help open eyes?

How can I help you see that you can RIDE EVERY DAY, just have to watch the terrain you ride on?

How can we get people excited to take a harder line on overall safety in the mountains?

How can we make it a norm that you have equipment, practice with it and use your brain?

How can we make people quit seeing these is an UNAVOIDABLE accidents?

How do we erase that “it’ll never happen to me” attitude?

How do we get people to realize beacons have 2 purposes, to help find you and to find others?

How do we change the mentality that $300 is to much for a beacon but $10k is ok for a sled?

I am getting involved to try and make a difference. But I need help… I need to figure out how to get through to people!!!

I don’t want to take away the thrill factor of being in the mountains! HECK NO! I like adrenaline! I live for sledding……….. but I also want to live to keep sledding. And I want the same for all of you!

I once was a totally clueless person! I lost Animal in an avy and turned around and was involved in another burial the very next winter. Even after BEING THERE FOR BOTH OF those 2, I don’t think I was really aware! So, I’m not picking on anyone. It has taken me attending 2 avy classes and sitting in (to help) on a 3rd for it to FINALLY start sinking in. I don’t think most people have that kind of time or patience. So, how do we get it done w/o having to go through all of the above??? I want to help!

So, give me some ideas of how to help! And I don’t think free beacons and free education is the key. Accountability has to be a part of this…..

 

[Uller]

Unfortunately, I think the only "way" is to let all the clueless ones get sorted out via the natural selection process. I know it doesn't sound too good but what other options are there?

Only a fraction of all sledders are on the forum so that won't work. Mainstream media won't help (probably make it worse). The only one I can think of is mandatory avy classes as part of the sled registration.

I think the main issue is that this sport allows so much freedom as to where you can go and when. To me, that is the main attraction and why I quit skiing. So, I really don't want "The Man" to enact restrictions to snowmobile travel in the mountains. It would ruin our sport.

I guess I approach BC travel in winter with the mentality that the Avy equipment that I carry really isn't for me. It is so that I can try to save others if they get burried. The only way to ensure (or at least help) that I don't get killed is by making wise decisions as to where I travel during what conditions and how I ride while I am out there. Always know your exits. Analyze the slopes on your way in. PAY ATTENTION.

If you really break it down, I think it all has to do with the snowmobiliers mentality:
- I have a bad azz sled, I have all the safety gear, I have an ABS bag, a chest protector, spot, and on and on and on. I am invincible! I am invincible! I am invincible! I am invincible!
- (The real big one) "I have been riding this area for the last 10 years and I haven't ever seen that hill slide." Yet the particular hill is a perfect bowl that is 39 deg, has absolutely no natural anchors and doesn't have one mature tree at the bottom.

I think if you can change the mentality you can change the sledders.

One of my favorite quotes is, "In seeking wisdom thou art wise, in imagining that thou has attained it thou art a fool".

I think way too many sledders are imagining things. (At times, myself included)

 

[yardsale_oem]

Unfortunately, I think the only "way" is to let all the clueless ones get sorted out via the natural selection process. I know it doesn't sound too good but what other options are there?

Only a fraction of all sledders are on the forum so that won't work. Mainstream media won't help (probably make it worse). The only one I can think of is mandatory avy classes as part of the sled registration.

I think the main issue is that this sport allows so much freedom as to where you can go and when. To me, that is the main attraction and why I quit skiing.

I guess I approach BC travel in winter with the mentality that the Avy equipment that I carry really isn't for me. It is so that I can try to save others if they get burried. The only way to ensure (or at least help) that I don't get killed is by making wise decisions as to where I travel during what conditions and how I ride while I am out there.

Sad But True...............

 

[Ex-Member]

yep, I think everyone has their own reasons. Some people don't see the danger in it and take unnecessary risks because of that.

Don't know if there's anything anyone can do about them.

As uller said, natural selection.

I disagree with mandatory avalanche courses, last thing we need is any government getting more involved in something. There's a lot of people that stick on trails, virtually no avalanche danger to themselves. Again, it's up to the rider to understand the risks and take appropriate action to protect themselves and those they ride with.

 

[Macattack]

Great thread! You sure put some thought into it!

I remember about 10 years ago when I first started riding. I remember saying to an older couple on a Montana ride .... $300 is too much for a beacon and I have to buy a separate radio too? What's that going to cost me? The conversation progressed at my expense of being embarrassed. The "$10k is ok for a sled and 30K for a truck" arguement worked for me. I bought the gear the following week and have been progressively working to be more aware.

I agree that everyone has their own reasons and excusses. We can't change their mind but we can at least provide the info.

Maybe work with the FS, sno clubs, etc to provide a sign leaving the sno park that informes people the avy danger for the day. I know I forget to check sometimes but that reminder might be the last bit of info to persuade a rider? Food for thought!

if all I do is , "bump to the top" so be it.
J

 

[spring snow hero]

CG, I had my best eye opening expierience.........my wife can get a new husband, my baby girl can't get a new dad.

I used to be all about giving up who I love for what I love, but I realize now there is so much more to live for and that hill will still be there in may when it is stable.

life is a gamble, and in this hand every rider is delt a hand of kings, some just have try for the aces......some win, some lose, some take out the whole table.......don't be that guy (or girl)

 

[gmaredd]

I applaud you for giving a crap!! I sure wish I knew how to make people really stop and think - may very well be the question that never goes away. Thank you for caring enough to take the time to write this post. Grant

 

[undergroundrmk]

We can start by helping the people we know and ride with as Steph said don't let people ride with you if they don't have the equipment and the knowledge. I always have a spare beacon if some one in the group needs it I do not have a problem lending it out and showing them how to use it. Alot of the people most I think have not been involved in a avy. rescue believe me if they have they will always be changed by the experience it is not in anyway some thing you can describe but horrible.

 

[Zachcreek]

With some the mentality is as followed.

Take a course.
Buy the beacon, shovel and probe.
Good to go.
Now I know what to look for from my one course, so now I can read the slope.
Jump in, I have been on slopes like this before and they have never slid. Looks Good.

April-Seasons done

Nov- Have all the gear and I took a course last year. I'm good! Batteries look good also. It turns on. AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

Education is continuing, a course is only the beginning. AV 101. then there is the actual science. Weather Cycles, winds, sunshine, loading and all of the things that go along with it that needs to be understood. Be Aware of whats changing daily. I don't think that people want to put that much time into it.

Our group stops and discusses whats out there. Points out scenarios from different aspects. Many times on a ridge during lunch. We kind of play the "Do you see what I see" game.

Bury your sled? Great, you just dug a pit. Run your glove along the slide horizontally. Notice the layers. See the storm cycles? You are now more educated than before. I do this every time I get stuck and when my buds come to help my sorry butt out, I show them what I have found. Involuntary education.

Safety is education, survival is what you do with it.

 

[1Fast68]

I am a college student, Not much extra cash. I ride an old sled because i can't afford to buy a better one. I plan out purchases and have purchased safety gear instead of lightweight seats and better skis etc. Just the way i've set priorities i guess. Living another 50 years sounds like more fun than going another 20 feet up the hill.

Yet I've found the money, saved, looked around for deals etc to buy a beacon, a probe, shovels and a pack to carry it all in.

My brother mind you, An Eagle Scout (be prepared) who isn't in school, works full time making $50k a year rides some old junk like me because he is fairly new to the sport rides around with his backpack on with nothing in it besides his camelback. No probe, no beacon, no first aid kit, no extra gloves, I even bought him some basic survival tools last christmas, they're probably in his bed room. The one thing he has is the Voile shovel I got him. He says he can't afford to buy a beacon or probe. So he just bought a set of $2500 cyclinder heads for his racecar instead.

I get on him occasionally about it, and I guess the riding he usually does isn't very extreme and his priority obviously isn't snowmobiling but still, hopefully it never comes to the point where i am buried, wearing my beacon with all the right tools and knowledge. And he is on the surface with nothing more than a shovel and a whole hillside.

Some people just don't get it, and unless something drastic happens in their life, they probably never will. I Pray i never need my beacon or probe, but i am ready if the situation arises.

 

[Fatrunt]

Great thread C.G. having spent a nearly two decades dealing with death and having recovered a man that did not survive an avalanche I can tell you it is one of the most horrible ways to die.
Part of the problem is that we have way to many experts now. This is what i here around here. Well it rained and up high the snow was wet so it's ok it set up!!!! My AZZ all that did was put a heavy layer of wet snow on five feet of powder. Get a clue guys!!! Listen to the pro's if they say its extreme stay down and stay alive. I see guys banging away at twin lakes and the chutes around granite, scares the he!! out of me that stuff is prime for a slide. We need sun to bind the layers not rain. Pay attention to the forcasts and stay alive.
P.S C.G I have a video of the recovery we were on some years ago near Rock Lake in Valley County. I don't think I could permission to show it publicly because it will take your breath away and I am sure the family would just as soon forget that day. However I will try to gain permission anyway and if that wont shock people into paying attention nothing will. I stay in touch.

 

[TIM]

Some people will never get it. Even when they have to pull bodies out and so forth. One of my favorite people to ride with is this way. You name it he has done it. HE still doesn't think he needs a beacon. Some folks just don't get it and never will. Will this stop me from riding with this guy. No, but that is my choice.


another thread topic should be what to do after the burial and you have a body. Not a fun subject but it does need brought up.

tim

 

[MPS]

Good thread Brandy! I get so sick of preaching to people too! My buddy brought a couple of dumb a$$ kids with us last ride. They had no clue....they laughed at me....pissed me off! They did have beacons, but had no clue how to use them. When I noticed they didn't have shovels or probes I asked what the f*ck they were gonna do if someone gets buried. One kid said he would use his hands to dig someone out! Ignorant dumba$$!

There are more and more people on the mountain....that includes more and more inexperienced people. There are plenty of ignorant experienced sledders out there too.

I think it is about time to petition the legislature to make it law that sledders have to take an avalanche course every 5 years or they can't register their sleds. Then make the penalties much stiffer for unregistered sleds. I have seen bodies come out of the mountain. That isn't something I never want to see again.

Tim, I had a friend that was like that. A couple years ago after he bought a new M7 and a Duramax I said that was it. I told him you buy a beacon or I am done. Riding with him was not worth my kids being fatherless. I hope you aren't a parent! If you are....I think your decision to keep riding with him is a very selfish one.

 

[Ephratafarmer]

A big thanks for getting involved CG. As you know my self and my buds have been involved in some mishaps, and this last one took a great young man, which many of us miss. I`ll give this some real thought, and be in touch. Thanks again my friend.---Lets all think more about the conditions, and please everyone that rides in the back country have the right equipment with ya all the time. Have a blast out there, but make sure you and your buds all come home after each ride, to your family, and to ride again the next time.---Ken

 

[500 CID]

I think another reason people are reluctant to equip/train themselves is because the people (dad, uncle, brother, etc.) that got them started snowmobiling never had any training/equipment. The old "if they didn't need it then why do I?" mentality. My son is 6 yr old, and when he rides with me, I try to share my knowledge (which is limited, but improving) with him and show him how to use the equipment. I may not be able to change other people, but I can raise him to be a more responsible rider. We are attending an avalanche class together Thursday night.

 

[KMMAC]

I think the posting real time of an avalanche in progress as gruesome as that sounds may be the only way... Remember the video's in drivers Ed????? Mad me think. Adding to that,, some on here are right, the only some will learn is to be there.

 

[shortstop20]

I think the best thing to do is just buy a beacon(and the other required equipment), even if nobody else you ride with has one. Even if you can convince one person in your group to get one, then you both have them, hopefully it will "domino effect" down to the others. It is much easier to convince someone to do something when they are in the minority, people want to conform in that case. I think that will encourage people to educate themselves too.

Me and one of my friends were just talking about beacons and safety the other night having a good conversation. Then another guy who doesn't ride with us but I know him fairly well says, "Our group doesn't have beacons but if one of us got buried we could find him." Me and my friend just kind of looked at each other like, "Are you kidding me, did he just say that?" How naive are people? It doesn't make you anymore of a man to not have the proper safety gear and be educated. The people that scoff and laugh at others with safety gear and education willl think twice when they get caught in an avy or are stranded overnight in the woods. Being "macho" won't save you. I'd rather be "too worried" and be alive than be a "tough guy" that dies in an avy.

 

[cobbycat]

I have recently gotten involved with avalanche awareness training and my mind is a whirl with all these latest incidents (both avalanche and regular sled related injuries/ deaths) of how to stop this!

Preaching doesn't work.

Deaths don't work.

OT's pot stirring bad boyness doesn't work.

Begging doesn't work.

My question is, HOW CAN WE HELP change some minds and maybe change some lives?

How can we make it cool (instead of “who brought the worry wart?”) to step up and take better responsibility for yourself and your group in the back country?

How can we help you make better decisions?

How can we help you justify spend some money on education and equipment to save you and others lots of heart ache?

How can we help open eyes?

How can I help you see that you can RIDE EVERY DAY, just have to watch the terrain you ride on?

How can we get people excited to take a harder line on overall safety in the mountains?

How can we make it a norm that you have equipment, practice with it and use your brain?

How can we make people quit seeing these is an UNAVOIDABLE accidents?

How do we erase that “it’ll never happen to me” attitude?

How do we get people to realize beacons have 2 purposes, to help find you and to find others?

How do we change the mentality that $300 is to much for a beacon but $10k is ok for a sled?

I am getting involved to try and make a difference. But I need help… I need to figure out how to get through to people!!!

I don’t want to take away the thrill factor of being in the mountains! HECK NO! I like adrenaline! I live for sledding……….. but I also want to live to keep sledding. And I want the same for all of you!

I once was a totally clueless person! I lost Animal in an avy and turned around and was involved in another burial the very next winter. Even after BEING THERE FOR BOTH OF those 2, I don’t think I was really aware! So, I’m not picking on anyone. It has taken me attending 2 avy classes and sitting in (to help) on a 3rd for it to FINALLY start sinking in. I don’t think most people have that kind of time or patience. So, how do we get it done w/o having to go through all of the above??? I want to help!

So, give me some ideas of how to help! And I don’t think free beacons and free education is the key. Accountability has to be a part of this…..

if you got this from another post i think my friend said AVOIDABLE

 

[dropitp*ssy]

I think all you can do is work to increase awareness and at least encourage those who just don't know the danger to get equipment and education. Maybe with signs posted for avy danger at popular unloading areas, at least people won't be going out uninformed. If they are informed and just don't care then I don't think there's anything you can do about it. You can't mandate these things.

If you have friends or family who refuse education and equipment I would refuse to ride with them. I won't ride with anyone I'm not comfortable with relying on them to save my life. Other people's beacons are for your safety as much as theirs, yours is useless without another.

 

[m8magicandmystery]

wow..excellent post/thread...the real scary part is not really having an answer to help out..actually not a good answer yet to your post..i think you have alot of us thinking hard on this one...should be some good post coming if this thread has legs...