Hatchers Pass Management Plan meeting!!!! Need Sledders to come to meeting!!!

[cjgodden]

Well said Highlife.

CTX - As to your comment that Hatchers is the only place you can reach. There are other places close by that are allready non-motorized, How about Beyers Peak, the Back side of Lazy mountain, Pioneer peak, most areas of the chugaik forest( if i'm missing anywhere pipe in).

I have lived in the Valley for 30 years, they have been talking about a ski resort in hatchers pass as long as I have been here. Don't get you hopes up cause a resort will not happen anytime soon, if ever.

 

[CTX]

Come on, do you really think that he just all of a sudden decided, "hey I'm going to join a sled forum and try and talk to a bunch of die hard sledders about why I'd like more area set aside for skiers".

Nikolai - Except for the "all of a sudden" part that is correct. Talking to and listening to people with whom one has differences, well, that is a good idea I think.

Edit: Sorry if I'm being rude, but it would be like me going on a tree hugging website and asking which chainsaw works best.

Its OK, its an emotional issue. But I'm not asking you guys what skis I should buy. Downhill skis by the way, although I do have to drag them uphill first.

 

[c-bolt]

CTX...

You referring to seeing sled tracks in the backcountry being a de-facto loss of non-motorized area is TOTAL CRAP. That is like a sledder saying seeing a ski track is a loss of motorized terrain. QUIT TRYING TO TWIST THE FACTS!

Why do you have to hate hearing the sound of people enjoying the outdoors so much? I dont get pissed when I see a skier in the backcountry, I just get mad when they use the pull-outs and don't pay to park. I have to pay to park to use the area, why shouldn't you? The funds go to maintaining all areas of the management area, don't you think every user should pay to use the area?

How many skiers per week use the non-motorized areas? How often do they travel up over to snowbird? Do you think these users far out number the motorized users?

I also appreciate the fact that Hatchers is one of the few areas you can reach most of the time. Why do you not appreciate that Hatchers is one of the few areas many sledders can reach most of the time. Doesn't it seem unfair to close these areas, just because YOU cant seem to get to the other areas for your quiet time?

Many of our riding areas have been closed so non-motorized users can get some nice quiet time. I have seen so many of these non-motorized users being shuttled around the backcountry in a helicopter. Im sure you know how loud a helicopter is. I have no idea why a sled bothers you, but find a helicopter shuttling people up and down the mountains perfectly acceptable? They are much louder than a sled. I know this isn't the issue with Hatchers, but in a few other areas of the state it sure is.

I know you don't like us, but get over it. We will no longer sit down while you skiers try to take more of our areas.

I do feel a compromise is in order, thats the best way to solve the issues. The problem is compromising here gets us nowhere in any of the other areas...so we loose out.

Have fun in your quest to ruffle some feathers, your off to a great start!

 

[deere1]

Why not have the Heli guys go over the next ridge that snowmobilers cant get to. This would eliminate the problem. For that matter, they ARE in a Helicopter...why not fly across the inlet where there are no snowmobilers?! Anyone have a good reason why they want to be in the same bowls that we can get to?

X2. I heard that the heli company would have to spend extra cash on fuel to get over the next ridge where sleds couldn't go. I would be mad if I paid bank to have a helicopter fly me to a remote area, only to find out that you can access the same area by snowmobile.

CTX, welcome to the forum. I commend you for participating in this conversation. I have nothing against skiers. My main concern is that once motorized-use land is turned into non-motorized, it is NEVER considered for motorized-use again. That I have a problem with, public lands that the public cannot use.

 

[CTX]

Well said Highlife.

CTX - As to your comment that Hatchers is the only place you can reach. There are other places close by that are allready non-motorized, How about Beyers Peak, the Back side of Lazy mountain, Pioneer peak, most areas of the chugaik forest( if i'm missing anywhere pipe in).

I have lived in the Valley for 30 years, they have been talking about a ski resort in hatchers pass as long as I have been here. Don't get you hopes up cause a resort will not happen anytime soon, if ever.

I agree, that ski area may never happen. Which is just fine by me, I'm no fan of the idea - you will remember that I have pointed out that development of the ski area will mean a loss of non-motorized terrain. Although I would not oppose it, because some of my neighbors want it a lot.

And as to the back side of Lazy Mt and Pioneer Peak and areas in the Chugiak NF. None of that compares in general accessability and terrain quality to Hatcher (for someone who lives in the valley).

And I hate to admit it (and its a moot point anyway because it really isn't easily accessable ski terrain comparable to Hatch) but I didn't even know the State land on the northside of Lazy was classified non-motorized. Is that a Borough SPUD? I thought the Lazy Mt SPUD was still a work in progress? I didn't think the Susitna Area Plan closed that.

Isn't it OK to ride your sled up towards Pioneer Peak from Knik River Road (where you can find a bit of public land to get off of the road without tresspassing)? I do ski there sometimes, but it is a looong way to get above brushline.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Hatcher is a really fantastic place with which not too much in the neighborhood compares, and a lot of that is due to the great high-elevation road access. Thank you miners.

 

[CTX]

CTX...
You referring to seeing sled tracks in the backcountry being a de-facto loss of non-motorized area

My point was that 20 years ago there were places (for example, the Snowbird) where sleds didn't go. I didn't say it was good or bad, just that that was the case.

Why do you have to hate hearing the sound of people enjoying the outdoors so much?

That is a nice trick, "When did you stop beating your wife," kind of question. Try to look at it this way - you are having a quiet time somewhere really beautiful with your family, and another family shows up and starts playing some music you really dislike. Really loudly. Opera or rap, whatever. But they really like it. Why would you hate the sound of them enjoying their music? I don't hold it against you if you don't like all music. Tastes vary.

How many skiers per week use the non-motorized areas? How often do they travel up over to snowbird? Do you think these users far out number the motorized users?

Those are excellent questions. I don't have numbers for you. Do you know? Don't put words in my keyboard please. I have nowhere written that the Snowbird should be closed to machines. I have simply observed that it used to be a place without machines, and now it isn't.

I also appreciate the fact that Hatchers is one of the few areas you can reach most of the time. Why do you not appreciate that Hatchers is one of the few areas many sledders can reach most of the time.

I do! Thats why I am asking these questions!!!! If the sledders have Archangel, if they have the corridor to the west side, then do they have access equivalent to what the skiers have, if the skiers have the rest of the Little Su? Its a question.

I know you don't like us, but get over it.

I like you just fine. Its the noise (and sometimes it gets kinda stinky too) that I want to have a place to get away from. You really don't have to understand why we don't like the noise - you just have to recognize that we don't - and that sledders force other users to listen to it in shared areas.

Have fun in your quest to ruffle some feathers, your off to a great start!

Thanks - thats really not my quest - and its my feathers starting to ruffle!

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

CTX, thanks for letting us know how you feel, I can understand you..we are much the same..just different hobbies...I am sorry that some sledders run loud exhaust, while it sounds great to a hp junkie..to others it can be annoying...I think we(sledders) as a group are defensive about loss of use in areas is because of how much we have lost(never to be seen again)..yrs ago you could ride sleds, bikes,wheelers right here in anchorage...(just as wasilla is now), eventually our right to do so was reduced to a small play area(connors bog)...and that didn't last long before it was closed as well...yet non motorized use in anchorage has grown with bike trails thru out(which most avid bikers hardly use, instead they ride in the road hampering traffic),skiers have kincaid(once again a motorized users area years ago..now reduced to one small area while nonmotorized use has taken the rest)We as sledders are tired of loosing areas without fairness...personally..I wouldnt mind a compromise that allows alternating seasons for each user..that way everyone has access to all areas(although you may have to wait a season to use it)..I think it will take much compromise and understanding on all users parts to make an agreeable ,workable plan that allows all users access...How do we as snowmachiners earn the respect of non motorized users to stop the loss of our limited riding areas?How do nonmotorized users earn our respect so we dont feel that all you are after is the elimination of our public right of use areas?...we as a group..all outdoor active use public land users need to open our mind/hearts and thoughts to equality /respect , and honor in our dealings with each other to find a common middle ground that allows us to share our public lands equally......thanks again for your post/thoughts....

 

[theultrarider]

CTX once again thanks for taking the time to chat with us. While we will never agree on all points, we do agree on many and that is a great start. It would be nice if both sides can have a civil conversation and debate over how the area is used and how to get the area to where both user groups have access to this area and get along. There is no reason for the sledders to "hang out" in a corridor area and make unessary noise for you guys close to the trucks, when the real riding starts 10-20 miles in somewhere. Zip through the corridors and get away from the skiers. you have to see/listen to each group for a few minutes in the morning on our way back in, and a few minutes on our way out. Typically here in the pennisula where we do have the two groups in the same area, most sledders all leave the parking areas within about an hour of each other. This mean there is about an window in the moring and an hour in the evening just before dark that the two groups see and hear each other. i don't think is too much to ask of the skiers. I can see where you wouldn't them running circles around you all day long.

 

[Puff_N_AK]

Whoo-hoo! The dark side is fun!

Thanks for the replies; here are my thoughts on them.

cgodden – you indicated that riding areas that are practical to reach on a day-trip with a sled are the same now as they were 20 years ago. OK, it doesn’t look like that to me, but I’ll accept it. You are correct that there are millions of acres of non-motorized area in the state, but Hatcher is the only part of those millions I can reach most of the time. And if the Borough ski area ever happens the non-motorized area there will shrink dramatically.

theultrarider – I totally understand your concern about getting cut off from access. Sledders need to have the existing corridor from the east side of the pass over to the west. I don’t think there is the faintest chance that that will be lost. Today while I was skiing in the non-motorized area south of Fishhook Creek I was listening to a lot of brapp brapp of machines in that corridor. Didn’t like it, not my cup of tea while I’m out enjoying the mountains, but hey that’s life, that’s compromise, you guys need that corridor.

AkSummit – I share your concern for safety. But I can easily understand why the skier was outside of the non-motorized area. He probably loves the mountains and likes to experience a lot of different areas. Like you and me. A bear wants to see what is on the other side of the mountain. There are some great runs outside of the Little Su drainage. Would you like to be confined to riding only forever within the current non-motorized area at Hatcher? I think you might find it small after a while.
Is it more dangerous for you to share an area with a skier than it is for you to share an area with another sledder? Maybe the answer is yes. I do have to ask though, if it is not possible to have a similar close call with another sledder. Not trying to contradict you, actually curious.

highlife – I’ve been to the Snowbird on day trips, not often, it is a long haul up to the Lane and over or up Reed Creek and over Snowbird Pass. But you and I agree in a way – sleds today can really get back to areas that have little non-motorized use. I don’t remember snowmobiles on the Snowbird or highmarking the Banana couloir 25 years ago – that’s the sort of de facto loss to which I was referring.
And there is something subtle here. I do not agree with your statement that skiers have never lost anything in Alaska’s playground. You may not agree, but to me it is a loss when I am somewhere great in the mountains and then somebody else shows up with a bunch of huge stereos blasting obnoxious (to me, I know its subjective) music all over the valley.That’s why I think it is fair to have some non-motorized areas.

Nikolai – sorry, I’m not familiar with the winter scene at Johnson Pass. But don’t worry, my vocabulary is OK.

Ever heard of Upper Huffman? Whens that open to Sleds? like once a season for 2 days?
Welcome to AK, lots of people pull in to pull outs rockin out.

 

[2THTOP]

2.1 cents

What has always seemed comical to me is how the word impact is thrown around. This year I had 2 XC skiers on Archangel ski down the middle of the trail, when I stopped to talk to them, No English-they were Euro's,whatever!
They basically gave me their version of the bird, and I returned USA policy. My favorite issue is Skookum/Heli ski moans. Last time I checked CPG uses Bomardier Snowcats and Eurocopter "A-Star" Helicopters. Neither of these run on granola bars, and green tea. It's funny to me that all these people that hate sleds are being chaffeured to the top in basically a Bombi Skidoo Snocat with tracks. As far as the A-star helicopters with twin Alison engines, what's the "impact" of 100LL fumes in the area,similar to race gas maybe,without altitude additives? And they run the piss out of those Helo's. How many Bald eagle nest have been blown out of the trees with these RPM's the helo's are using? I'm just jealous I'd dig hav'n a Helo to drop sleds off in the back country Like they do in Revy. All this is extremely High on the "Elton John" List.

 

[DVarmit]

CTX

I am curious as to what the general consensus is among you and your friends about the fact that we motorized users pay yearly permit fees for use and your group does not. Wouldn't it make sense for everyone to pay a specific fee for use. They groom the trails to the mine at Hatchers and that is not a motorized area. I think the additional funds could be put to good use and it is really not that much considering the amount of time spent to dollars spent.

I for one would like to see a group of motorized and non-motorized users get together and present this as an option. The non-motorized users would/could come up with a list of things their money could be used for to make the idea more viable. Maybe doing something at the top or bottom of the snowboard trail like a warming hut for the kids? We had warming huts back east on the state lands. They were there for motorized and non-motorized users. They had a potbelly wood stove and the state made sure they were stocked with wood. Don't know just a thought. I just think there is a lot of positive things that could be done with fees assessed for non-motorized users.

Oh, and I am not a tax and spend liberal.. I hate taxes..

 

[AkSummit]

AkSummit – I share your concern for safety. But I can easily understand why the skier was outside of the non-motorized area. He probably loves the mountains and likes to experience a lot of different areas. Like you and me. A bear wants to see what is on the other side of the mountain. There are some great runs outside of the Little Su drainage. Would you like to be confined to riding only forever within the current non-motorized area at Hatcher? I think you might find it small after a while.
Is it more dangerous for you to share an area with a skier than it is for you to share an area with another sledder? Maybe the answer is yes. I do have to ask though, if it is not possible to have a similar close call with another sledder Not trying to contradict you, ac.tually curious.

.

Thats MY POINT!

Its already dangerous enough out there for us sledders, now we have to maintain the same situational awareness while looking for skiers, and we cant HEAR you.

Its a disaster waiting to happen.

I enjoy skiing, am pretty damn good to, but I would never ski in a heavy sled area. Its just ignorant.

 

[AkSummit]

CTX

I am curious as to what the general consensus is among you and your friends about the fact that we motorized users pay yearly permit fees for use and your group does not. Wouldn't it make sense for everyone to pay a specific fee for use. They groom the trails to the mine at Hatchers and that is not a motorized area. I think the additional funds could be put to good use and it is really not that much considering the amount of time spent to dollars spent.

I for one would like to see a group of motorized and non-motorized users get together and present this as an option. The non-motorized users would/could come up with a list of things their money could be used for to make the idea more viable. Maybe doing something at the top or bottom of the snowboard trail like a warming hut for the kids? We had warming huts back east on the state lands. They were there for motorized and non-motorized users. They had a potbelly wood stove and the state made sure they were stocked with wood. Don't know just a thought. I just think there is a lot of positive things that could be done with fees assessed for non-motorized users.

Oh, and I am not a tax and spend liberal.. I hate taxes..

Im with you on that one.

Since I registered my sled at the DMV why cant I ride it on the road? OHHH BECAUSE Its the fee I PAY to ride the State lands.

Hmmmm. I think its time that skiers pay their way as well.

 

[AkSummit]

I agree, that ski area may never happen. Which is just fine by me, I'm no fan of the idea - you will remember that I have pointed out that development of the ski area will mean a loss of non-motorized terrain. rs.

Yup- but you will have a pretty lil ski resort and wont have to walk up the hill any more.

 

[highlife]

Bottom line guys is this ..... we need to ORGANIZE and tell all of our friends about this situation at Hatchers and get educated about what is at stake. Please go to the DNR website and call and email our concerns, fill out the questionnaire and attend the meetings. We can not afford to lose any more of our riding areas, its more than just sledding, its politics and government dictating what we can and can not do. Make a commitment to your self to not just voice your opinion here on a website, its more important than that.

 

[Nikolai]

This guy is a tool. There is no questions that he would be happy to see more area classified non-motorized, seeing as he hates the noise and it's clear he doesn't like seeing sledders while out skiing.

The problem I see, is that everyone replying, is posting about thing we need to do in order to make the skiers happy. Who gives a flying fawk, I'm sick of this crap. No matter HOW MUCH we compromise, they will NEVER be satisifed. First it starts with banning the playing of music, then with speed limits, then with closing areas, and next we'll be buying them lunch. You see, there is only one user group that EVER compromises, and that's sledders. If you guys want to try and please this guy go ahead. Maybe buy him dinner and ski with him for the day.

 

[Nikolai]

Of course he doesn't want a ski resort because it would ruin his skiing areas, but it's ok if sledders lose ground so he gets more terrain. This deffinitely would make sense to someone with minimal brain capacity.

 

[AkSummit]

I too think its time we start getting our access expanded. Frankly I dont understand why there isnt any riding area in E.R. other THAN the river.

You have the whole valley that is just sitting there waiting.

Back to Hatchers now-

If folks are going to hatchers to ski in "peace and quiet" how over expectant are you?

There has to be a truck, car, or sled making noise from sun up to sun down.

not the place I would go to get some peace and quiet.

 

[Puff_N_AK]

Of course he doesn't want a ski resort because it would ruin his skiing areas, but it's ok if sledders lose ground so he gets more terrain. This deffinitely would make sense to someone with minimal brain capacity.

I think they don't want the area, because the skier/snowboarder crowd would have to actually start paying their own way, and not be able to ride on the sledders coat tails.

 

[Nikolai]

I too think its time we start getting our access expanded. Frankly I dont understand why there isnt any riding area in E.R. other THAN the river.

You have the whole valley that is just sitting there waiting.

Back to Hatchers now-

If folks are going to hatchers to ski in "peace and quiet" how over expectant are you?

There has to be a truck, car, or sled making noise from sun up to sun down.

not the place I would go to get some peace and quiet.

The ER thing is BS also. The ****in forest service can shove it. The mountains back up SF and ER valley get a stupid amount of snow ever year, PLENTY to sled on. And there's no reason they can't run it like Eklutna and open it to sleds a few days out of the week.