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Hatchers Pass Management Plan meeting!!!! Need Sledders to come to meeting!!!

I am sorry I missed the meetings. Do not really have good excuse except that I was outa town for the first one and then I did not open the thread till this morning as I was trying to avoid real work....
Thank you for attending and keeping us ignorants posted. I will be going to the meetings in the future if I am in town or the valley...
 
Most of the issues last night seemed to center around nothing more than "the old plan is 20 years old, and it is time to rework it". There were no non-motorized people there, so the topic of conflicts was minimal. Two things in the public notice that concerns me as a participant were:

1) the statement that the revised plan may include additional areas of state land to reflect new use patterns. What new use patterns are they refering to and how did they collect and document the new use patterns?

2) the Note that states is is likely that changes to state regulations governing the Generally Allowed uses on state land will likely be necessary. What changes are they anticipating and what unintended consequences are possible with the changes? The Generally Allowed Uses of State Land is pretty good as it stands. I am skeptical that any changes will benefit us.

As far as conflict goes, the only item that I noted (from my group, I hope the others chime in) is the funneling of snowmobilers into the avalanche chute just prior to going over the pass to Summit Lake. With the Skyscraper on the norther side of the corridor trail, is sketchy for much of the season insofar as avalance danger is concerned. With Hatcher creek the southern boundry of the corridor, a good alternative may be tough to propose.

The Government Peak unit is where the Borough is likely to locate the ski resort. It has traditionally been closed to snowmobilers. A very nebulous idea was discussed that involved opening part of the Government Peak unit to riding in exchange for closing some of the alpine area north of the Reed Lakes unit. This alpine area is currently not in the management unit at all. That was the reason I asked about traditional use of the area east of dogsled and north of Reed lake. I know some riders are dropping over dogsled pass and then heading north towards the Kashwitna drainage. This is again, just outside of the current management area and is subject to the Generally Allowable use of state land.....

In pursuing our long stated goal of no net loss, would it be worthwhile to look at a swap in this area? Would more people use the Government Peak Unit than use the alpine area mentioned above? We would insist on a continued use of the area north and east of dogsled pass for travel towards Kashwitna. Does anyone use the eastern section of that area around Penny Royal glacier or the areas north of Mint glacier?

The issue of skier tags that reflect the registration fees we all are required to obtain did not come up. Non-motorized contributions to the park system will certainly remain on the table. Use of state property costs us registration fees, the same should apply to non-motorized users.

Don't mistake these notes for advocation of any change in current use. I just want to gather as much information as possible so we can be fully informed at the next round of meetings. It was proposed that a motorized/non-motorized group meet in the next round to see where we have conflicted goals.....the DNR reps were very adamant that without a compelling public safey issue, the bar for closing any areas was extremely high and was not likely. If we figure out where the non-motorized groups are coming from, it should give us a better idea of what to address in advance of a draft proposal from the SOA.

Kevin

Thank you Kevin!

IMHO, the Government Peak area is not a good place to ride sleds and should be left to skiing. All areas to the North including Kashwitna and Bartholf drainages are prime riding. Swap or no swap, we need to keep these areas OPEN TO SLEDS! Reed Lakes and Glacier Creek are closed to sleds so that is a mute point.

I agree with Highlife's comment on SnowBird, Bomber Glacier, etc. that the ski use is light due to the location and the time needed to access this area. I am also of the opinion that Archangle and Lane Prospect should remain OPEN to sleds. I have a feeling that this riding area will surface on the "closed list" before this is all over. The Archangel trail has a great deal of user conflict due to its accessible location and popularity with all user groups.

I would not be surprised if the DNR reps even know that we access Bartholf, Snowbird, Bomber, etc. on sleds. Did they mention it?

Thanks again, Chris
 
reply from dnr

Here is a reply I recieved after emailing my input

Hello Jerry.



Thank you for submitting a comment regarding this project. I want to assure you that DNR has not reached any decisions regarding this area and we have certainly not revised the plan. And, no decisions about limiting or expanding any type of recreational use in the Hatcher Pass area have been made; this includes motorized and non-motorized uses.



We have just begun the public scoping phase for this project in order to learn public issues and concerns that we will take into consideration when revising the plan. We will not issue recommendations until we have prepared a draft plan (called the Public Review Draft) which is scheduled to be available in September. During the upcoming months we will have a number of public meetings in both Anchorage and Wasilla, where you will have additional opportunities to comment. A public notice will be issued soon to inform you of the dates and locations.



If you would like to learn additional information about this project, please visit our website. Information regarding the project process, maps of the management plan area, and pdf files for the 1986 and 1989 management plan and amendment are available. The webpage address is: http://dnr.alaska.gov/mlw/planning/mgtplans/hatcher_2009/.



If you have any additional questions or difficulty with the webpage, please let me know. Thank you again for submitting a comment.



Philana Jarvis

Philana Jarvis

Natural Resource Specialist II

Department of Natural Resources

Resource Assessment & Development



Lets Keep Involved!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
This sounds like a very very similar process to what we went through with the feds on the Chugach National Forest re-write. The feds really did listen to what people had to say. I can not stress how important it is to keep attending these meetings as they come up through the summer months while your mind is on other activities. Step up and be heard. Make a difference for your kids and grandkids...It is far easier to keep an area open than to try to get one re-opened!
 
Email list?

As far as sled related land management issues go, what are the chances of someone who is very active in these meetings to keep an "email" current events update list? I missed the anchorage meeting because I didn't look at this particular thread. In the summer months it will be even worse. I believe this approach would increase attendance and knowledge of these meetings. I'm hesitant to ask for a volunteer(s).. and burden someone else with this task, but truthfully I seem to fail at keeping up with these meetings. Everyone here seems to share the same common goal.

Maybe the admins could create a sticky with a thread "Sled land management issues email list" that anyone could edit to add their email??? And I'm not talking about just a normal thread with 300 different posts all with separate emails, I'm talking about 1 single post so all the email addresses are organized and easy to copy/paste. Then, when there is a new meeting/update, the people in that list would get an email, which would further disseminate the word. Again, just throwing that out there, not even sure if that is possible.

Does this request seem feasible to anyone? Or is there such a list that already exists that I'm unaware of??

Thanks, and I would ask that you please excuse my ignorance on this issue.

- Travis
 
Bottom line .... read this thread, tell all your friends who ride or four wheel and then follow the links to the online survey (found in this thread) that DNR has set up and FILL it OUT. Thats a good start.
 
It is interesting for me, a skier who has been using Hatcher for decades, to read this forum.

These are exactly the same things that the quiet-use advocates are saying!

To sum up, the DNR has realized (not the skiers) that modern day sleds can now go into areas that we were unable to reach previously. ...snip... What really needs to happen is to play in harmony with each other... snip... Yes, our modern sleds can now go deep into the park like never before but that is not a bad thing.

The fact that the modern sleds can go more places, and more dependably,...snip... The modern sled lets us run many many miles back up into a valley to reach our true modern playgrounds. These areas are far enough into the backcountry that it is improbable for a skier to even get back in there on an overnighter, let alone a day trip. I am not in favor of this everywhere of course, but this is a good fit in many areas where the skiers can have a lot of terrain close to the trailheads if our morons will leave it alone on their way into the backcountry.

A couple of points and questions:

There is a call for a no-net-loss of riding area on this forum. I have a question for you guys. With the capability of the new machines has there actually been a HUGE net-gain in riding area over the past several years? (I mean riding areas that are practical to reach on a day-trip.)

Something to think about: If the ski area ever happens it will be an immense net-loss of non-motorized terrain for backcountry skiers. The simple increase in machine capability has resulted in a de-facto loss of non-motorized terrain over the years.

Talking to some of my hard-core sled neighbors and buddies, they recognize the asymmetrical impact sledders and skiers have on each other, and support the idea of having some closed-to-motors areas. Is there general agreement with that on this forum? Is the question where to find the balance?

I want my neighbors to continue having fun on their sleds. I want to continue hunting at Hatcher. I want to continue skiing fresh untracked snow without someone screaming in my ears.
 
Quote "There is a call for a no-net-loss of riding area on this forum. I have a question for you guys. With the capability of the new machines has there actually been a HUGE net-gain in riding area over the past several years? (I mean riding areas that are practical to reach on a day-trip.) "

No, the area has always been open, therefore no gain has happened. We are tired off loosing riding area, How about the 2 million more acres of motorized access we just lost in the last federal battle. Every time a new managment plan comes up the "compromise" is motorized user's loosing access. We are done compromising its time to advance instead of retreat. Because non-motorized users will not give up until there are no more motorized areas left.

Quote" I want my neighbors to continue having fun on their sleds. I want to continue hunting at Hatcher. I want to continue skiing fresh untracked snow without someone screaming in my ears. "


These areas currently exist, There are millions of acres of backcountry area that you can use and not have to ever see a motorized vehical. Why is it that you think you need more?
 
No Net Loss

CTX, welcome to the dark side.

In almost every land management forum I have participated in (this covers most likely the same decades you have been skiing Hatchers...) there has traditionally been an us vrs them mentality that is often fostered by the land management folks. We were also heavily involved in the Chugach National Forest management plan as well. What we discovered during much of the resulting findings was that if the skiers and snowmobilers were left to thier own negotiations, we found lots of areas that we were able to cooperate with and proposed several joint options that were ultimately rejected by the forest service.

You aren't going to make much headway with the scenario that we are gaining more use area with the expanded capabilities of newer machines. The fact is and always has been that while there are closed areas to snowmobiling, there are no areas that are closed to skiers. ( I know people will point out the motorized only trail from Goldmint parking lot to the Fishhook parking lot, not enforced) Until the spacial separation ideas are implemented that address the emotional impact snowmobilers have on non-motorized proponents, this isn't going to change.

The no-net loss policy promoted by the organized groups is one that has been in place for a long time. A realistic interpretation could have an area that is closed to snowmobilers offset by either a movement of a traditional boundry line or improved infrastructure to a trail system or a parking area.

One of the best starts we can get with the entire spectrum of issues here is a frank and civil dialog between the groups that are involved. As a pretty crummy skier I am learning more each day that I am involved with both sides. Rather than be dictated to, each side should (and traditionally can) work out areas of cooperation that work for both sides.

Kevin Hite
 
Kevin - Thanks for the welcome. I'm pleased to have a civil discussion and hopefully I'll learn something.

CTX, welcome to the dark side.
The fact is and always has been that while there are closed areas to snowmobiling, there are no areas that are closed to skiers. Until the spacial separation ideas are implemented that address the emotional impact snowmobilers have on non-motorized proponents, this isn't going to change.

What are the currently unimplemented spatial separation ideas you are thinking about?

I can't think of any practical reasons why snowmobilers would want large areas closed to skiers. Is there something I don't understand about how, within a shared open space, skiers adversely affect the fun-quotient for sledders?

A realistic interpretation could have an area that is closed to snowmobilers offset by either a movement of a traditional boundry line or improved infrastructure to a trail system or a parking area.

Thats very interesting. Are there some ideas floating around for improved infrastructure in Hatcher Pass?
 
CTX,
Welcoome to our forum. I think it is great that you have taking the time to see what we are thinking here and I appreciate your attitude. With that, on both side, There is or should be no reason that both user groups should not end up with a plan that works for all. As with every comprimise, nobdy wins and nobody will get everything they want. I hope that more folks on both sides of this issue and sit down and talk with clear and open minds and level heads. The thing that comes to mind 1st and foremost to me, is totally cutting off a riding area to us, rather than giving us access to the back areas behind them that 99% of skiers will never go back into. I think you can agree, in our country here in Alaska, you don't just drive the trailer around the mountian and access it a different way. There just are not any roads to go around or to a different route. It is senseless to lock up thousands of acres of land that will otherwise go unused by either group. I live in Soldotna so I am not very familar with the "trail" system and how the valleys connect there. Like Kevin, I did spend alot of time and effort working on the Chugach plan a few years back when that came about. We also here in our Caribou Hills area have alot of dog mushers that live and train up there. They use our snowmachine trails extensively. The entire Tustemena 200 sled dog race each year is held completely on our groomed trails. Our club takes alot of pride in having those trails in great shape for the mushers for the race. Both of these users group get along very well. Sure, there is a grumbling from time to time, but I have never heard of a serious complaint about the other. A little common courtesy and respect on each side goes a long way. Both group have their bad apples. Please don't judge us by an idiot's actions, and we should not do them same when we encounter a skier that refuses to step off a trail to let us by them. Welcome again, and let's find a way to keep enjoying our winter sports and this great land.
 
Kevin - Thanks for the welcome. I'm pleased to have a civil discussion and hopefully I'll learn something.



What are the currently unimplemented spatial separation ideas you are thinking about?

I can't think of any practical reasons why snowmobilers would want large areas closed to skiers. Is there something I don't understand about how, within a shared open space, skiers adversely affect the fun-quotient for sledders?



Thats very interesting. Are there some ideas floating around for improved infrastructure in Hatcher Pass?


ctx-
welcome to the forum.

As an avid snowmachiner I am not against skiers in any way, my concern is reflected around safety.

I had an encounter this year at Hatchers where I was riding the back bowl behind the mine and while climbing as I came upon a skier who was coming straight down the mountain.

I had to use some quick judgement to avoid them, I thought we both were "lucky" nothing bad happened.

The truth is, if we cannot keep distance there will be skier/sled accidents, and I dont think anyone wants that to happen.

I dont want to close any area for folks to enjoy, but there has to be an understanding for safety sake.

My 1st thought that day was "why ride back here with sleds when you have a lot of non-motorized terrain to rip up, and not put yourself in a safety hazard?"

I was upset that I was put in that situation because of the non-motorized use areas. As a responsible sledder I have enough on my mind considering the danger we face with the terrain, snow, and the other 480 pound sleds in the area.

There is a TON of backcountry, we need to continue sharing the land while ensuring personal safety.
 
"The simple increase in machine capability has resulted in a de-facto loss of non-motorized terrain over the years" .... CTX this statement is simply not true. Skiers have not been able to access the remote stretches of Hatchers on a day trip due to logistics and that will never change. The point is that you cant lose what you never had. Those remote areas were always open to both users and they need to REMAIN that way.

I too have been enjoying Hatchers for decades and my father before me and now my son and daughter and now my grand daughter. We hike, sled, run, hunt, four wheel, snowmachine, raft, fish and berry pic. I am a multi user. I have taken my snowmachine to the remote stretches to ski untracked pow and now my son takes his sled to snowboard untracked pow as well. Living and playing in harmony is the answer not exclusion of one group over the other. Fact is, skiers can ski EVERYWHERE, even in the motorized only areas. That group has never lost or been excluded in Alaskas playground.

I agree with CJgodden .... "We are done compromising its time to advance instead of retreat. Because non-motorized users will not give up until there are no more motorized areas left."

That statement may sound confrontational but to me, its not. I still want to work together and play together... a good lesson in life for all of us.
 
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Lets take Jonhson Pass for example. It's closed to skiing 5 miles back at the divide. I have NEVER seen a skier that far back(most ski right above the parking lot)...EVER, yet it remains closed to sledding. Skiers are selfish and will never be satisfied until all areas are non-motorized. There is no compromise, I'm not even sure they know what the word means. I'm sick of losing riding areas just because someone THINKS that someday they might ski 10 miles back into an area and hear a god damn sled.
 
Lets take Jonhson Pass for example. It's closed to skiing 5 miles back at the divide. I have NEVER seen a skier that far back(most ski right above the parking lot)...EVER, yet it remains closed to sledding.

I was back in Johnson pass the other day on the Avy recovery mission. It was an eye opener when the Forest Ranger that was out there with us said "Wow, this is some awesome snowmobiling areas". I asked him why this wasn't open to snowmobiles because skiers could never make it back this far. He said good point, and wasn't sure why but thought it was because of the Heli skiers. Which still doesn't make any sense because you can access it by snowmobile. Why not have the Heli guys go over the next ridge that snowmobilers cant get to. This would eliminate the problem. For that matter, they ARE in a Helicopter...why not fly across the inlet where there are no snowmobilers?! Anyone have a good reason why they want to be in the same bowls that we can get to?
 
Whoo-hoo! The dark side is fun!

Thanks for the replies; here are my thoughts on them.

cgodden – you indicated that riding areas that are practical to reach on a day-trip with a sled are the same now as they were 20 years ago. OK, it doesn’t look like that to me, but I’ll accept it. You are correct that there are millions of acres of non-motorized area in the state, but Hatcher is the only part of those millions I can reach most of the time. And if the Borough ski area ever happens the non-motorized area there will shrink dramatically.

theultrarider – I totally understand your concern about getting cut off from access. Sledders need to have the existing corridor from the east side of the pass over to the west. I don’t think there is the faintest chance that that will be lost. Today while I was skiing in the non-motorized area south of Fishhook Creek I was listening to a lot of brapp brapp of machines in that corridor. Didn’t like it, not my cup of tea while I’m out enjoying the mountains, but hey that’s life, that’s compromise, you guys need that corridor.

AkSummit – I share your concern for safety. But I can easily understand why the skier was outside of the non-motorized area. He probably loves the mountains and likes to experience a lot of different areas. Like you and me. A bear wants to see what is on the other side of the mountain. There are some great runs outside of the Little Su drainage. Would you like to be confined to riding only forever within the current non-motorized area at Hatcher? I think you might find it small after a while.
Is it more dangerous for you to share an area with a skier than it is for you to share an area with another sledder? Maybe the answer is yes. I do have to ask though, if it is not possible to have a similar close call with another sledder. Not trying to contradict you, actually curious.

highlife – I’ve been to the Snowbird on day trips, not often, it is a long haul up to the Lane and over or up Reed Creek and over Snowbird Pass. But you and I agree in a way – sleds today can really get back to areas that have little non-motorized use. I don’t remember snowmobiles on the Snowbird or highmarking the Banana couloir 25 years ago – that’s the sort of de facto loss to which I was referring.
And there is something subtle here. I do not agree with your statement that skiers have never lost anything in Alaska’s playground. You may not agree, but to me it is a loss when I am somewhere great in the mountains and then somebody else shows up with a bunch of huge stereos blasting obnoxious (to me, I know its subjective) music all over the valley. That’s why I think it is fair to have some non-motorized areas.

Nikolai – sorry, I’m not familiar with the winter scene at Johnson Pass. But don’t worry, my vocabulary is OK.
 
If you don't like it then get off the website. You are trying to justify yourself which is pointless on here. All we want are the current motorized areas to stay open to motorized use. Why is that so difficult for skiers for comprehend? Why do you feel that you are supperior and should have more area to enjoy than sledders?

It's obvious you're on here just to stir the pot and have no real desire to discuss land closures or combined use. So stir away. You should visit this thread lmao...http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146291


BTW, for my sledding friends, I have no issues with snowboarders or DH skiers for the most part. It's just the XC ones that piss and moan. You're like your own breed.
 
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If you don't like it then get off the website. You are trying to justify yourself which is pointless on here. All we want are the current motorized areas to stay open to motorized use. Why is that so difficult for skiers for comprehend? Why do you feel that you are supperior and should have more area to enjoy than sledders?

It's obvious you're on here just to stir the pot and have no real desire to discuss land closures or combined use. So stir away. You should visit this thread lmao...http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146291


BTW, for my sledding friends, I have no issues with snowboarders or DH skiers for the most part. It's mostly just the XC ones that piss and moan.

I didn't take his posts like that at all but maybe I am missing something? :confused:
 
Come on, do you really think that he just all of a sudden decided, "hey I'm going to join a sled forum and try and talk to a bunch of die hard sledders about why I'd like more area set aside for skiers".

Edit: Sorry if I'm being rude, but it would be like me going on a tree hugging website and asking which chainsaw works best.
 
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CTX ... you and I are cut from the same rug. I feel your pain about a sense of loss. I really do. At times I feel the same thing when other sledders and or skiers show up to one of my (I use "my" with a wry smile) secret honey holes. I get the same feeling of loss with fishing and hunting areas when others come to play in "my" spots. Truth is, I got down on a few folks here at this site for calling out an area by name because of similiar feelings of loss. BUT, the truth is, a controlled use PARK like Hatchers is all of ours, not mine nor yours to have to ourselves even though we would like it to remain that way. With or with out noise. Fact is, noise to you is music to many others, especially on this site. What bothers me more than ski tracks or sled tracks in far away places is the "Bomber Hut" like the one the ski club built out in the middle of pristine wilderness, a manmade object that remains long after the tracks from both sledders and skiers melt away! Yuk.
 
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