Hatcher Pass Public Scoping Meeting

[BLONDZ]

This was the first meeting of this kind that I have ever attended. I am a member of the Anchorage Snowmobile Club, Alaska State Snowmobile Association, SAWS and I support businesses/entities that want to protect our riding areas. I try to be proactive when I can and support our sport. I have submitted my comments to the DNR on previous issues and will voice my opinion online regarding this issue again. I am hoping that the state actually listens to us all and that we as the community that uses this and other areas can peacefully work together to find a middle ground, even though historically the state has chosen to disregard the public comment and make management plans of its own.

The group of people that showed up to the Anchorage meeting seemed to be at least half pro-snowmachine or pro-cohabitation of common areas (we need more). I honestly was appalled to see how much the non-motorized use supporters HATE us. We apparently have a horrible reputation within these groups ~ which I find sad, because I would consider myself a multi-use recreator (yes, I prefer a motor between my legs, but I also go hiking, mountain biking, berry picking, fishing, cross country skiing, sledding, etc). Why can't we all just get along and share nicely? We motorized users do actually have to share, if you think about it... non motorized users can go ANYWHERE we can go... but we cannot go all of the places that they are allowed to go.

The opposition had arguments on motorized use in Hatcher Pass that addressed several topics, here are a few: A. the noise ~ some looking to preserve peace and quiet. B. the reckless endangerment by the occasional rude snowmachiner who highmarks above where a skier is coming down a slope (not cool by the way). C. the potential for a skier to injur themselves on set up trench marks from snowmachiners (hello... I broke my arm because I hit a trench mark and got bucked off my sled ~ ya don't see me wanting to ban snowmachining in Turny). D. their limited areas to recreate (yeah, because the only place in the entire HPMA they aren't allowed to go is on the ONE SnoTrac road that is for the groomer only). E. technology for snowmachines has allowed for us to access areas that we hadn't been able to access when the original management plan was implemented (please be respectful of cabins/huts/monuments if you do go near them)

Some want an inch for inch compromise - if they lose dedicated areas, they want us to lose dedicated areas. On the flip side - if we gain an area, they want an equal amount of area. It was asked that the State factor in the number of motorized users vs non-motorized users and also the economic benefits to the Valley from the number of motorized users that recreate in Hatcher Pass. The opposition then asked not to factor in economic reasons.

I am all for extending the northern boundary of the HPMA and for the enforcement of dedicated use areas, but better boundaries and signage in some areas would help. Putting in specific/dedicated groomed ski trails in Archangel and other shared areas might help as well. I don't mind clearly marked corridors through some areas and I am in support of openning up more access points from Edgerton too. I don't mind increased registration fees on our snowmachines to maintain trails and parking lots, I would even be okay with paying additional parking fees in these areas to support it.

Bottom line ~ get involved ~ voice your opinion ~ keep a positive attitude

Check out this DNR website for more info http://dnr.alaska.gov/mlw/planning/mgtplans/hatcher_2009/

Those of you that were there... please post up points that I missed mentioning and if you weren't there... get to the meeting tomorrow or at least go online and share your comments for them to consider.

Rant over lol G'nite

 

[HYFLYR]

Glad i made the meeting, even though i was there for a limited time it was informative to see how much they really dont like us. Its funny though, they wont come out and say it, oh well that will never change, lol. It was interesting to hear their point of view on some things and their ideas of expansion and/or zoning of projected areas already in use. Obviously i found some things they were saying completely retarded but that goes without saying. I do however want to be a part of this and make my voice heard, therefore will be attending more meetings whenever possible. It takes more than one or two of us and it was good to see a few forum members there to support our sport, now we need to continue our support.

I know they are not trying to completely shut us off from hatchers but with them trying to take a little at a time it is only a matter of time before we lose all our riding areas, placer, 20 mile, then turnagain, and so on are already on the list for revisions in the future.

 

[kev_alaska]

Meeting

Glad to see some new faces last night at the meeting. It always helps to put faces to names. You got to see the division that exists between the user groups. Looking back, there was only one side that advocated for closure and/or separation. Wasn't us.

I went back to the map table at the break and listened to the skiers. Almost to a person, they brought up the fact that if the Borough goes forward with the ski area, it would defacto close a bunch of the government hill unit to them. Not that it would legally close it, they just don't want to share those slopes that currently are closed to everyone except them. It sounded like this may be more of a driving force than the oft cited "conflicts with Snowmobilers".......for the first time in a couple decades, the non-motorized group may lose some area.....

My offer to them to sit down and negotiate was one we have offered and followed through with in the past. We have the advantage of having people well versed in state law and with a lot of legislative history, so having these discussions will not weaken our positions. The comments Bruce made about changing or modifying the "state generally allowed uses" is a big concern to me personally. This land classification gives us the useage and access to all state land all over the state. Changing that would reflect changes everywhere. Tom Irwin will certainly get an immediate challenge to any hint of a change to this state code.

Once again, thanks for coming out. Good luck to the Valley group tonight.

Kevin

 

[Dash]

Blondz, very well written! Here are some of my comments to your text:
A. the noise ~ some looking to preserve peace and quiet. There was a rep from "Anchorage/Alaska concerned citizen group for equal rights" who's agenda is to make sure their rights to quiets are maintained and the areas where they recreate is exactly same as motorized, inch-by-inch, mile-by-mile. I am not writing this to entertain you, I am writing this because it's SERIOUS how some people feel about noise!

C. the potential for a skier to injur themselves on set up trench marks from snowmachiners (hello... I broke my arm because I hit a trench mark and got bucked off my sled ~ ya don't see me wanting to ban snowmachining in Turny).
They also brought up possible av. danger triggered by a rider above skiers. And of course the fact that some riders don't slow down enough when passing skiers on multi-use trails...

D. their limited areas to recreate (yeah, because the only place in the entire HPMA they aren't allowed to go is on the ONE SnoTrac road that is for the groomer only).
There was a question where the money for grooming comes from. Answer: The motorized only trail grooming is paid for from registrating our sleds, the non-motorized trails are groomed (I forgot but I think he said) be Nordic Skiers. Anyway, I had to ask who pays for the multi-use trail grooming, and of course it's us. This (I think) means the trail from lower parking lot uphill to Anchangel, Archangel Rd and over the pass road and beyond....

E. technology for snowmachines has allowed for us to access areas that we hadn't been able to access when the original management plan was implemented (please be respectful of cabins/huts/monuments if you do go near them)
I think this is one of the biggest issues. The Alaska Mountaneering built and maintains 3 huts in the area. 2 of them have never been reached by snowmachines until 2 years ago, which raised their concern. It did not sound like the huts were vandalized, so there really should not be any problem if riders reach them, look around and leave. They are open, and serve as shelters. I think they are built on public (state) lands, so we should be able to use them as well.... (if we have to).
Blondz, I think that AK Mountaneering is pushing to extend the northern boundary so their 2 huts would be included in the Management plan zone, therefore they would be able to regulate it more. This is what I understood. I think they should not be allowed to extent the boundary, it'll give them more leverage later on. They can't even manage properly the east side of Hatchers anyway.
There is not enough rangers, parking spaces, toilets, sings and enforcement of rules as it is now, which is why we have problems.

Please, come to the meeting tonite to Wasilla, I will go again. Also, there was time to allow speakers to come out and say what they have to say, some were citizens, some spoke for organizations. But there was no private citizen who spoke to defend our rights and publicly say what we later discussed over a beer... We all are afraid of public speaking but if there is anybody (especiall from the younger crowd!!!!) who can do it, please come out and speak up tonite. We need to let them know that it's important to keep Hatchers open to snowmobiling, for various reasons (take new girlfriend up there, introduce riding to new riders, kids, out of state family members) and Hatcher Pass is the perfect place to do this.
See you tonight.

 

[pura vida]

thanks for all the info and all most of all for going. i will be at the wasilla one tonight. i'm going to write down some thoughts before i go to try to keep them organized and then take notes at the meeting. if i don't i'll get pissed off and forget to say something. thanks again. call your friends. tell them to come.

pv

 

[highlife]

Blondz has rehashed what has been previously written/discussed and debated. I am glad she has had a revelation after going to her first public meeting. We all need to have that revelation and in order to do so, we need to become ACTIVE. That means if you cant make it to the meetings then go to the web site and write your thoughts, call and talk directly to the folks listed on the website link. Myself and others have been urging all of us to become ACTIVE. If you have never broken out previously on any agenda ... this is the ONE to have your break out moment on. Force yourself to become engaged. This will affect you personally, all your friends, your current family members and future ones.

 

[livinthedream]

did any one really get anything out of the meeting last night? sounds like they don't really have any thing yet, kind of just feeling things out. I was hoping to hear something regarding the new plan coming out, how things were going to change if at all. if they don't have anything yet then public comment might still have some effect. they are giving us until June 5 to send in or post your comments. then check back as they are going to have the public review some time in Sept on the new "plan".

Bruce said they are trying to "capture recreation orientation" but didn't go into detail how exactly they were going to accomplish that.

I was also confused about expanding the boundry to the Kashwitna River. does any one know details about the susitna management plan? specifically is it more favorable to snow gos than the hatcher's or the new hatcher's plan? if so then we really wouldn't want to expand the boundry. from the comments last night sounds like skiers are in favor of expanding which would lead me to be against it. can any one shed some light on that issue? should we as motorized users be in favor of the expansion or not?

 

[TEH HITMAN]

As someone on the inside of this process, I can assure you your comments are going straight into the circular file.

It is going to close 11/15/09. It has to do with an obscure land deal signed by former President Bush.

The public meetings are just an informal obstacle.

I suggest you dig a little deeper to find out what is really going on.

 

[pura vida]

no. we should not be in favor of expanding the line to the kashwitna. it only gives them more control.

pv

 

[Winter Project]

That was the 1st one i've ever been to also. The mountaineers HATE us, all six of them. It basically boils down to a skier vs. sledder scenario. Wayne Devore was quick to point out that motorized recreation users make up 80% of all hatchers pass usage. Too bad we don't show up in those numbers to the meetings - if that were the case we would have nothing to worry about. The rangers and management authority don't track these numbers - so the meetings are our only hope.

Below you will find some of the positive arguments being made for motorized users:

Economic Impact of riders is unmeasureable.
Economic impact of skiers isn't worth measuring.
Riders represent the largest group of users.
We contribute/pay for our own trail grooming through registration fees.
We don't cry when skiers use our areas/ we learned how to share in 1st grade.
The new breed of skiers smartened up, and use sleds to access the good powder and get in 10 times more runs then hikers.
Riders are more than ready to meet up with other groups and work on a plan that will work for everyone.
Riders aren't some alien group, we too pick berries, ride bikes, ski/snowboard, take pictures of Rock Ptarmigan(Andrew), and pay taxes.

I've sent in my feedback via that website.

I'm still in aw HYFLYR took the podium and mentioned taking photos of Rock Ptarmigan, I wonder if his screen name is actually about Ptarmigan... someone should tell him those things don't fly very high....

 

[theultrarider]

Abig thqnks and my hat's off to those of you who made the time to attend this meeting. I say made the time, because none of us has "spare"time. It takes making the time and caring enough about an issue to do so. by not showing, shows those making the decisions that we really just don't care. if you hate politics, but love to ride, now is the time to bite the bullet and attend some meetings that can make a real difference in your life, and that of your kids. I know it sounds lame. but this is for real folks and is how the system works. Stand up and be counted. Thanks agian to those that did.
Theultrarider

 

[cjgodden]

I was at the meeting in wasilla tonight, the parking lot was packed, and there seemed to me to be many more motorized users than non. The general responses during the comment period, altho more than half the crowd left after the presentation and before comments, were non motorized users want the east side closed to motorized in winter and no motoerized at all in summer. motorized users want to keep it the way it is or gain access to currently closed areas.

If you could not attend and make a comment in person, make sure and provide written comments.

 

[AKCAT]

Hey guys,
Maybe it's been done already but if not someone from the Anch snowmobile club should get the word out to the state assoc and then down to the local clubs. I'll brief the pres of the Delta Jct club and pass on the link. Never been down there but it's important all of us riders band together.
Has Blue Ribbon Coalition been contacted on this yet??

 

[wwracer]

Good turn out tonight. You could see in their eyes the contempt the huggers had towards the riding community as we gave comment. Yeah even with names and counts like "friends of Mat Su" (300 members) and "the Silent Majority" (60 members) they are loaded for bear, don't sell em short. There wanting archangel and Marmot Mt. at the least....

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Good turn out tonight. You could see in their eyes the contempt the huggers had towards the riding community as we gave comment. Yeah even with names and counts like "friends of Mat Su" (300 members) and "the Silent Majority" (60 members) they are loaded for bear, don't sell em short. There wanting archangel and Marmot Mt. at the least....

that is so sad how people veiw others...I always try to be respectful to everyone I meet when riding, I understand the noise issue(from their perspective), as well as the smell of a motorized vehicle,and the fear of injury from a collision....unfortunately I missed both meetings due to work, but I have filed on dnr and I have informed all my friends to get involved as well...........

 

[Winter Project]

Hey if you ride and couldn't make it to a meeting... and don't like to type, or don't know what to type...or just hella lazy....

go to the link below, enter your contact information

Hatchers Pass Management Plan Website

- and either edit my text, or copy and paste it as it is.

I would like to please ask that you keep the following in mind while revising the plan:

Economic Impact of riders is unmeasurable.
Motorized users represent the largest group of users.
The majority of skiers use the area you can drive up and drop off - since most of them are younger, i don't see that area being closed to motorized users as a problem.
Motorized users contribute/pay for our own trail grooming through registration fees.
Motorized users don't have a problem sharing areas.
The new breed of skiers smartened up and/or are lazy, and use sleds to access the good powder and get in 10 times more runs then old school hikers.
As a skier I would love to see more areas opened up to share 'our' land and provide 'easier' access - Motorized/non-motorized users are equal, neither are better than the other.
Riders aren't some alien group, we too pick berries, ride mountain bikes, ski/snowboard, take pictures of the amazing landscape/animals/historical sites, and pay taxes.

Direct recommendation for your next plan not pertaining to usage:
Include a HUGE trail sharing etiquette board - maybe a place to initial on the season pass/day pass form saying you've agreed to it.
Huge map with general information - closed/opened designations.
Incorporate an avalanche warning board/advisory information.
Physical trail markings through-out the management area.
Do not extent current boundaries - especially since enforcement way out there is near impossible and will only create more work for your office.

Thanks,
Motorized User (YOUR NAME)

 

[Prayn4snow]

Large crowd tonight. I would have to agree that it was mostly motorized users, but I will say the non motorized users were very well represented. They were very articulate in writing down their comments and were well spoken during the public comment portion. We need to do better as sledders! Dash did an excellent job speaking on our behalf as did Pura Vida (to bad he had 20 minutes worth of notes and 3 minutes to speak).
It was disappointing to see some of the most knowledgeable riders/users of Hatchers Pass leave after the break. I spoke to a couple in the parking lot asking them to come back. Problem is, they, like to many others think they wont make a difference.
The non motorized users tonight came right out and said "on record" that they would like to:
-Close down the east side to motorized users
-Close Archangel and Gold Mint (lower parking lot) to motorized users
-Complained about "noisy, smelly, arrogant snowmobilers" that wont share the trail and have come close to running them over.
-Close Hatchers to summer time ORV's (4 wheelers & buggys) because the ruts and damage they do to the landscape.

Most of the rest has been covered in others comments above.

 

[Nikolai]

I attended the Anchorage meeting. I like the comments about needing to compromise. How is it compromise if only one user group keeps losing? It was great how the skiers don't want the financial aspect brought up since we would put them to shame. Funny group of people, but some of their reasoning is a little scary.

 

[Dash]

Hey Trav, I thought about doing the same (write & copy letter to DNR), maybe we can work on good letter this weekend together (I hope Jen and others will help as well), and we can email that letter to our friends (instead of hoping they would look at this thread and act upon it). It has to be done before June 5th.

And for those who complain about closed areas/multi use trails/ bad behavior etc to their friends, please sit down and type your comments and send it to DNR, just be civil about it. This time it looks like they are really looking for public input and they will (might) act upon it. So if they don't hear from us, they might think that it's OK with us that the whole east side of Hatchers will be closed to snowmobiling!!!!!!!!

RIght now they are revising the 20 year old plan, which includes rules for grazing for example, and they don't even know for sure where the borther is (they have the map but they are not acurate as the border lines are too thick and can represent as much as 1/4 of a mile).

Also interesting was to hear that Marmot Mtn (above Anchangel and the upper parking lot) was originally designed as NON-motorized and somehow it changed to motorized.... They were not able to explain this....

So the revising is obviously necessary, but we can loose (or gain!) something in a process!!!

 

[AkSledHed]

Since I missed out on the meetings, I just sent in my comments to them. I'll get the wife to do the same.