Give me an opinion on low RPM

[Jaynelson]

We ride in deep dry snow all year and never had that problem between 5 pros

As far as I know, neither have I. But something has more the performance drop off, and this seems worth looking in to, as well as other items mentioned

And I'm not bitching....this sled has been everywhere for nearly 3 seasons with super basic maintenence. If it needs a little love in an area or 2 I am definitely not surprised.

 

[assault11]

I would check your y pipe where the donut sits. We've had three break. And have you tried a new belt?

 

[Jaynelson]

You eliminated clutch maintenance/drive train issues so where to next.
A dealer had me look at an 800 yesterday with just over 400 miles on it. Rings were junk, flaked on the intake side to the transfer ports.
Flaking generally starts on the intake side. Pulling your ex. valves to check your rings will give you a false reading. This old guy needs a good light to check them.
I stopped in numerous shops on my way to Denver a couple weeks ago. Their comment when asked about the flaking,"Haven't seen it". So we would head to the shop to look at down motors, guess what, all had major flaking. They are now watching for the ring issue. I stressed a leak down test for customers having running issues. It does't take long to eliminate or confirm this known problem early. IMO ring flaking starts the process that ends in cylinder skirt failure.

TRS - As I am sans leakdown tester and currently too cheap to purchase one, and given I haven't seen exactly what "ring flaking" looks like. Would the next best way to check be pulling the head to have a look? Would it be obvious from that vantage? I still have powertrain warranty on this sled, so if that is my issue, it is an easy/cheap fix.

 

[TRS]

TRS - As I am sans leakdown tester and currently too cheap to purchase one, and given I haven't seen exactly what "ring flaking" looks like. Would the next best way to check be pulling the head to have a look? Would it be obvious from that vantage? I still have powertrain warranty on this sled, so if that is my issue, it is an easy/cheap fix.

You cannot see it with the head removed. You have the 2 year powertrain. Take it to your dealer and have him test it. If your dealer doesn't have a leak down tester......., you can figure that one out. There are pictures on the forum of flaked rings search for "not pulling rpm anymore" and go to post # 26. You can buy a leak down tester from Harbor Freight for less than $50. You spend more than that to replace your clutch springs.

 

[TRS]

Here are a couple sets from last week.

 

[800poodragon]

I was under the impression that the flaking was caused from the fuel washing the oil from the piston in that spot...that is where the premixing would help.... to a point. I am not an expert tho...

 

[TRS]

Here are a few more.
AKSNOWRIDER,
I must respectfully disagree with the snow issue. I've talked to folks in Minnesota and to one of the largest Polaris snowmobile dealers in Northern Wisconsin. The trail sleds are now getting mileage on them and they are witnessing the ring flaking.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

TRS..obviously many things can be causing it..I suspect moisture due to what we saw with our big race motors in mud(big HP nitrous and blower motors) and from many previous sleds(there was a point where I was putting 5-7000 miles on a season sled wise)..yeah other things can do it as well and maybe the cause here..but normally when you are seeing it right on the intake side..its either moisture or fuel in my experience...best bet is to check both..on our pro's we have run oil in the fuel since day one..none of our sleds have displayed any flaking..but I also made sure our intakes were well sealed as well..my dragon did show flaking....on 1 set of rings..and just so happened to have injested snow on a couple of rides due to the airbox seam splitting..only time it ever showed flaking in 3 sets of pistons too....have you seen any after market ring kits showing flaking on a PRO?..I haven't so far but have only seen a couple fix-it kitted sleds so far....

 

[TRS]

TRS..obviously many things can be causing it..I suspect moisture due to what we saw with our big race motors in mud(big HP nitrous and blower motors) and from many previous sleds(there was a point where I was putting 5-7000 miles on a season sled wise)..yeah other things can do it as well and maybe the cause here..but normally when you are seeing it right on the intake side..its either moisture or fuel in my experience...best bet is to check both..on our pro's we have run oil in the fuel since day one..none of our sleds have displayed any flaking..but I also made sure our intakes were well sealed as well..my dragon did show flaking....on 1 set of rings..and just so happened to have injested snow on a couple of rides due to the airbox seam splitting..only time it ever showed flaking in 3 sets of pistons too....have you seen any after market ring kits showing flaking on a PRO?..I haven't so far but have only seen a couple fix-it kitted sleds so far....

AKSNOWRIDER,
The Dragons were horrendous with snow ingestion. It was evident in piston scuffing. I understand the moisture problems. Maybe we are seeing more of this with the use of ethanol fuel. Transfer ports(intake) take up most of the bore. Why does it start close to the locating pins and the boost port? Loss of heat transfer, ring flutter, soft det.?
Ski-doo had a similar problem with rings and handled it with a change in supplier and ring composition. PI needs to do the same. What ever the cause they need to get it fixed. In my travels, I have talked with or have been in shops from Montana to Colorado and Wisconsin to California and this issue is wide spread.
My personal sleds have not passed the 1450 mark without ring or engine failure. Use non-ethanol and oil pump cranked. Maintenance is not neglected.
My past riding also racked up 4-5000 mi. per year, sounds like we both get snowpox often. The cough just started again.
The local dealer had a customer fail a leak down test at 390 miles, and he was running 100/1 in his fuel.
I know of only two fix kits in my local and they don't have many miles on them. Sorry guys, I get long winded.

 

[savagecanuck]

Jay have you replaced your fuel filter? I have similar issues 12 pulling 8050-8150 on trail but only 7800-7900 on the hill in the pow. Sled is a 12 with 1375 miles.Tech says its prob filter.Someone else's problem now I dumped it off and await my 14 163le
?

 

[Matte Murder]

FYI, when my mag side injector went it was dramatic. Not a few hundred RPM. Quickly it went to the point the sled was really impossible to ride in the steep OR deep. Fixed now, runs awesome.

 

[Jaynelson]

Jay have you replaced your fuel filter? I have similar issues 12 pulling 8050-8150 on trail but only 7800-7900 on the hill in the pow. Sled is a 12 with 1375 miles.Tech says its prob filter.Someone else's problem now I dumped it off and await my 14 163le
?

Hmmm, it's a thought....but not sure I see a fuel filter doing that with my logic. If the filter was restricted to the point where it was impacting WOT performance, I would imagine the thing would be waaay lean and would have burned down by now....

 

[Reg2view]

One thing with fuel, if you have to run a load of ethanol fuel, even once, after running non-ethanol for a year or two, the solvent capability of ethanol sure loosen's up the crap and ruins a perfectly good filter like bam. Fuel pressure just drops, exhaust temps rise, timing slides back, all before hard det. I hate ethanol, but I don't farm corn and I'm not a politician. An evil perpetrated on us by government rubes. Rant off.

 

[rocket]

AKSNOWRIDER,
The Dragons were horrendous with snow ingestion. It was evident in piston scuffing. I understand the moisture problems. Maybe we are seeing more of this with the use of ethanol fuel. Transfer ports(intake) take up most of the bore. Why does it start close to the locating pins and the boost port? Loss of heat transfer, ring flutter, soft det.?
Ski-doo had a similar problem with rings and handled it with a change in supplier and ring composition. PI needs to do the same. What ever the cause they need to get it fixed. In my travels, I have talked with or have been in shops from Montana to Colorado and Wisconsin to California and this issue is wide spread.
My personal sleds have not passed the 1450 mark without ring or engine failure. Use non-ethanol and oil pump cranked. Maintenance is not neglected.
My past riding also racked up 4-5000 mi. per year, sounds like we both get snowpox often. The cough just started again.
The local dealer had a customer fail a leak down test at 390 miles, and he was running 100/1 in his fuel.
I know of only two fix kits in my local and they don't have many miles on them. Sorry guys, I get long winded.

I'm curious what if any symptoms were seen with these ring problems aside from "weak performance". My '12 was new this season - was somewhat disappointing from day 1, but with some clutching it seemed to run OK for about 1000 miles mid-season, then seemed to get "lazy" toward the end of the season. Was honestly thinking my motor was headed south. Compression was ok when checked, pistons looked ok both exhaust and intake side (though seemed loose). I was a bit unhappy to see a couple light "scratch lines" on the intake side of the cylinders, but nothing scary. The only thing I saw that didn't make any sense was the little bit of metal "sparkles" I flushed out of the reeds when I cleaned them up. After reading this, I'm wondering if perhaps the rings could be the origin for the metal. Of course, that makes me wonder about the crank as well, as that stuff won't do the bearings any good. How many hours on a motor before ring issues start to show up? I'm a flatlander, so hours seem more appropriate comparison than miles. My own dealer, while helpful, doesn't have any long-term experience with the CFI-2 800s. My sled probably has the most miles of any Pro he has sold, so I'm sort of the "guinea pig". Any information would be appreciated.

 

[geo]

Lot's of good points here. Ring flaking may be there too but It may or may not be the cause of the problem you are describing Jay. This thread has sort of turned to two topics.

I'm a believer that snow injestion causes the flaking. I was on Doo's when they had issues and cured my sleds ring flaking with air intake sealing. Worked good until the pistons started breaking skirts or rods seizing but that's another story lol.
The Pro air box leaks at the split, the joint between the hood and box leaks and the plenum in the hood leaks (just like every other sled I've had lol). These leaks let in belt dust, brake dust and snow (which turns to water droplets that carry the dirt into the engine and explode when contacting the hot engine parts and pressures in the motor).
If you have slight scoring on your pistons or bore you have been sucking in dirty air. If you have ring flaking early in life (pre 2000 miles) you've been sucking in water. Just IMO.

As to the rpm drop you have Jay, MO is it is just clutching. First year on the Poo's for me this year and I've been around the block with 4 different wieght types. IMO even if you only have 90 ponies left in your motor you should still be able to clutch it to be more consistant than a 300 rpm swing. If your dropping down to the torque peak and no lower your motor is still making the power but your primary is too heavy.
IMO the added linear travel in the P85 is it's claim to fame. It allows a light wieght to squeeze the he** out of the belt. Some of the heavy after market weights give a noticable improvement but you have to add heavier primary and secondary springs to help them backshift. This has to add wear so that means quicker maintainance intervals. 200 miles and your past the point you need to clean things up.

So Jay, you guys got a good dump this week. Try the old Pro out with stock clutching again and report back. I know next season I'm going back to Lightening or stock Poo weights and will work the secondary to get the upshift I want.

 

[RKT]

Jay, you MAY have ring/piston issues if you are running the stock pistons or a few aftermarket pistons. Surely a possibility since the stock pistons surely have been plagued with issues since Polaris switched from the Elko Piston.

IMO, the ring flaking is not from snow injestion, it is from an impregnated ring material design.

However; we have also found with our sleds (2011-2013) that there exists a strange anomaly that seems to "sneak" in around 800-1000 miles with these Pros that "steal" rpm.

We have not isolated the exact cause of this anomaly (and may never do so) but have just found means to treat it and get the sled back running to its potential.

So, I would suggest getting some better pistons and making 100% sure that your exhaust valves are free from leaking (somewhat common)

Hope this helps

Kelsey

 

[Jaynelson]

Thanks for all the great help/suggestions/ideas everyone....really good points from a lot of knowledgeable people! I gotta find some time to tinker with it now!

 

[trikerider]

Check out this thread, doesn't seem to be the same (under load) problem but it could help.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345760&highlight=clean+ves