Every one that has *****ed on this forum(me included) chip in $25 !!
Get your **** together wa.
- Thread starter badapple
- Start date
Get the facts first you guys
I have asked for and received an accounting from the state on the sled lic fees etc in the past, the math didnt work for me at the time and I didnt have time to run it past someone I trusted to explain it to me. I am at fault for that and we all should take the time to understand the issues. I am nearly certain the sport grew for the last 10 years, the numbers that were on the report appeared a bunch of money just went missing in the early 90's and maybe later. They started down the road saying much money had been spent on snow park enlargment but my guess is most of that was donated time, fuel and equip. they may have just figured what is should have cost and used that number to move some funds to the state general fund.....just a hunch.
Now before this ruins my entire evening I urge anyone interested to get the info first then ask questions. If you would like I can send the contact I have to anyone interested. (email me as the info is at work). butch@bbauto.org.
And have a nice day!
I have asked for and received an accounting from the state on the sled lic fees etc in the past, the math didnt work for me at the time and I didnt have time to run it past someone I trusted to explain it to me. I am at fault for that and we all should take the time to understand the issues. I am nearly certain the sport grew for the last 10 years, the numbers that were on the report appeared a bunch of money just went missing in the early 90's and maybe later. They started down the road saying much money had been spent on snow park enlargment but my guess is most of that was donated time, fuel and equip. they may have just figured what is should have cost and used that number to move some funds to the state general fund.....just a hunch.
Now before this ruins my entire evening I urge anyone interested to get the info first then ask questions. If you would like I can send the contact I have to anyone interested. (email me as the info is at work). butch@bbauto.org.
And have a nice day!
I think for licensing it should just be a flat $50-$60 bucks for a sled, it's a fair price I think, I only pay $35 a sled now. Same should go for cars and pickups, maybe a flat $100 as well. I also think that the grooming should have been cut in half during the crappy snow weeks to maybe once a week instead of twice, would have saved a little for now. Baker sucked today. If we can get a fund going I will pitch in.
Jetjohnson, Did you read what I said?
I don't think our sport is getting smaller, do you? I was totally guessing on the facts, OK, maybe THIS year registration is down. But, I dont think registration is down compared to 5 or even 10 years ago. (There I go guessing again). I feel our system is not working and I think we need to adapt a new one. I would gladly pay $5-10/ ride. I think it would actually cost me more per year, as compared to just raising our licencing fees to $50. I also think it would be more proffitable for the groomer. It might be just me, but I like the idea of paying to park in a snopark that I choose to use. Not giving money to the state to distribute how they see fit. I'll bet the person (here I go guessing again) that makes the decision about who gets what and how much doesn't even ride snomobiles. If we take a look at a system that works, and try to adapt their ideas, might be better than just raising the cost of our system. Ultimatly, it will cost all of us more. I understand that! I always feel the people that use the program should fund it. But our liberal state doesn't do things that way. Maybe someone could get the facts on how Montana, Colorado, Wyoming ect. fund their grooming. Anyways good luck figuring this one out, I am done bashing our elected officials in Olympia. -00's
I don't think our sport is getting smaller, do you? I was totally guessing on the facts, OK, maybe THIS year registration is down. But, I dont think registration is down compared to 5 or even 10 years ago. (There I go guessing again). I feel our system is not working and I think we need to adapt a new one. I would gladly pay $5-10/ ride. I think it would actually cost me more per year, as compared to just raising our licencing fees to $50. I also think it would be more proffitable for the groomer. It might be just me, but I like the idea of paying to park in a snopark that I choose to use. Not giving money to the state to distribute how they see fit. I'll bet the person (here I go guessing again) that makes the decision about who gets what and how much doesn't even ride snomobiles. If we take a look at a system that works, and try to adapt their ideas, might be better than just raising the cost of our system. Ultimatly, it will cost all of us more. I understand that! I always feel the people that use the program should fund it. But our liberal state doesn't do things that way. Maybe someone could get the facts on how Montana, Colorado, Wyoming ect. fund their grooming. Anyways good luck figuring this one out, I am done bashing our elected officials in Olympia. -00's
grooming
35,000 sleds X $35 = $1,225,000
35,000 sleds X $55 = $1,925,000
$700,000 increase----Would that help? Does it need to be more?
$20 bucks a year increase per sled seems like a sensible amount to me.
35,000 sleds X $35 = $1,225,000
35,000 sleds X $55 = $1,925,000
$700,000 increase----Would that help? Does it need to be more?
$20 bucks a year increase per sled seems like a sensible amount to me.
U
Ultralord
Well-known member
I think the Idea of a little hut at the base of stampede collecting 15 per sled per day would solve it and it would keep the state out of it wssa could run it and staff it an use a % of collections to cover cost. we just need someone to spearhead this and make it happen. I would gladly spend my time to help just dont know where to start.
Well it will help out. But we have one foot in the whole now, next year cuts coming again and bigger so two feet in the whole, year 3&4 the arms. It ruffly takes three year to get the increase in to the budget to start with.Also facture in sled lost to the increase of the raise. Also the gas tax to loss. If i remember write win it was $20 X 41,000 to 45,000 sleds = $900,000 think the gas tax was 0.14 cents at the time. So you may not get as much money in the raise as you may think. Just food for thought
2zero's... make sure you are not confusing the amount of sleds out there riding with registration numbers... they are not the same, nor I would bet are they close. I have heard stories about an officer in Cle-Elem / Roslyn area that was stopping people on the trail checking. He appearently was astounded by the amount of people that were unregistered. Just some thoughts...
More sleds + less sleds registering every year = problems!
B
badapple
Well-known member
Good news!! I got some hard numbers related to grooming cost. It looks like 150$$ an hour to get the groomer back out on the hill
I know it sound a little daunting for a grass roots campaign. So what id like to do is get the powers that be(whom ever admin is) to create a sticky thread above the Wa. forum. Those committed to donating can post their donation on that thread. Assuming we get a good response from riders we can then get the ball rolling. What im trying to achieve is a large number of riders willing to donate anything they can. By posting your donation ill assume your committed to the donation and will then be sending PM's to each donor to request their donations be mailed in check,certified check, or money order to the NW glacier cruisers. First however i would like to get an idea of who's on board and how much $$ could be raised. Please dont post UNLESS YOU ARE COMPLETELY COMMITTED TO DONATING
I know it sound a little daunting for a grass roots campaign. So what id like to do is get the powers that be(whom ever admin is) to create a sticky thread above the Wa. forum. Those committed to donating can post their donation on that thread. Assuming we get a good response from riders we can then get the ball rolling. What im trying to achieve is a large number of riders willing to donate anything they can. By posting your donation ill assume your committed to the donation and will then be sending PM's to each donor to request their donations be mailed in check,certified check, or money order to the NW glacier cruisers. First however i would like to get an idea of who's on board and how much $$ could be raised. Please dont post UNLESS YOU ARE COMPLETELY COMMITTED TO DONATINGRegistration numbers?
Well, if that is the case maybe we need to get the local po-po's out and enforce registration we have now. I assumed we are all following the rules, there will always be people who don't. It would entice me to chance it if the tabs cost more. I don't know of anyone who doesn't buy atleast one registration per year. Remember, Click it or ticket! -00's
Well, if that is the case maybe we need to get the local po-po's out and enforce registration we have now. I assumed we are all following the rules, there will always be people who don't. It would entice me to chance it if the tabs cost more. I don't know of anyone who doesn't buy atleast one registration per year. Remember, Click it or ticket! -00's
I'm all for "pay to Play" but how can you trust our state? I wish people would really think before they vote but it's not going to happpen. I really don't think anyone has a problem raising the "user fee" but how do we do that? Let's quit bit(hing every year and get it done! Who's in charge?
One more thing that might help a little is a "non-resident fee" like Idaho, it's $25. I know the number of visitors in Washington is pretty small but they should pay just like we do when we ride out of state.
If you haven't payed for your tabs and you continue to ride you should be ashamed and your friends should refuse to ride with you. I won't!
One more thing that might help a little is a "non-resident fee" like Idaho, it's $25. I know the number of visitors in Washington is pretty small but they should pay just like we do when we ride out of state.
If you haven't payed for your tabs and you continue to ride you should be ashamed and your friends should refuse to ride with you. I won't!
Gettum Dan you tell it like is is ...And give them people a Reality CHECK
D
deepdiver
Well-known member
Eric makes some very good points. I also am not a friend of the socialist welfare mentality. Charge me for what I use. As Eric put it "pay to Play"
I spoke with Cary Condotta(state Rep.) a couple of years ago about either having recprocating privledges with adjoining states or charging non-residents similar to how Idaho runs their program.
His response was that it had been discussed and the States(WA) concensus was that we dont get enough out of state visitors to justify the expense of that type of regulation. Oregon and Idaho do except your snowpark pass but Idaho still has you spend some money on registration but at least you can pick what area you want the money to go to, so you can help the grooming fund for your fav. area.
Canada on the other hand has the pay as you play system which I think is one of the better ways...pay a small fee as you enter the parking lot..then the person that has a snowmobile that he uses a few times a year on private property or his ranch or orchard doesnt have to subsidize my need to have a recreational play area. All snowmobiles are not used as toys!
I dont want someone elses handout nor is it fair for me to benifit from someone else that doesnt even use a trail system at all.
Another way is to join the local snowmobile club that does the gromming if that is the case for the area in which one rides. I know that the club scene is not for everyone but you can still send them a membership fee and donate to the grooming fund anything additional if you choose. In some cases a donation to a club may be tax deductable if the club is a registered "not for profit" club.
It takes a lot of volunteer work to keep trails in shape..there is more to it than just grooming also.
Some areas are NOT done by private groups/clubs but done directly by the Forest Service.
Editorial: I heard on many occasion riders (some friends) beitching how they shouldnt have to pay a dime and that they already paid for the grooming thru their registration. The state pays contractors by the mile groomed.
In an area like Baker their are not that many miles of grooming but many riders due to the large population in the area, so I would guess that their isnt much income from the state contract yet groomers still need tons of maintenance that has to come out of club monies along with the help of a volunteer mechanic in many cases.
Many grooming programs are very self sufficient and some pay for theirselves quite well. There are others that struggle for other reasons.
Example: In Wenatchee the Apple Valley Snowmobile Club grooms about 85 miles of trails in the Clockum area. I cant recall one time while I was on the board that the grooming fund was broke. It is possible that their have been years that were tougher than others I am sure due to un budgeted maintence but you have to average that in too the years that you made money.
So I think it comes down to the more miles you groom the more you make. Also is the groomer operator at Baker a paid employee or is it done by Volunteers..that makes a difference a little bit. The type of groomer that is used will eat your contract cost up very well. We spent in excess of 10 thousand dollars a year on maintenance alone with the Tucker! Is the groomer depreciated and then sold while it is still marketable and before the maintenance costs go thru the roof? Does the club or whoever does the grooming seperate funds from other club monies specifically for grooming and invest them in secured investments for later use.
Its basically like running a business but you also need some help with bailouts..there are just too many what ifs to understand the why part of the Baker deal.
As far as the snopark goes, in Chelan county the county plows the "registered" sno parks so that may be a different deal county to county.
There needs to be a better system in place for grooming other than emergency bailouts. Something that will get through the season..it would be interesting to know how Montana and Colorado get things done???
These are just some thoughts...I have no idea what the answer should be, but for one of the highest taxed states in the Nation we should be able to keep our recreational areas open somehow. Maybe a length tax on the towing rig! After all they do take up more space in the snopark. Now that I sold my trailer and have a sled deck I can offer that idea
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Just so everyone knows
Not that I'm any kind of and expert but I am pretty knowledgable on the grooming program. In our winter rec program, (motorized) we do have an entire panel of people on it the decide for the entire state where the money should be spent. There are some very dedicated and loyal snowmobilers on that panel that have to fight with non motorized, DNR, county and state people to figure out where the money goes. They try their hardest to get it on the snow but there are a lot of expendatures that go with the grooming. IE, sanitation, plowing, maintance, sheds, miles of paper work, maps, signs, snowpark repairs and lots lots more. It's watched and followed by "real snowmobilers" on a volenteer basis, they dont get paid one dime for all their work. Yes we have people watching out for our spending, it just cost a lot of money to play now adays. AND REMEMBER, THE STATE GETS NONE OF OUR MONEY, WE PAY TO PLAY with our license money and gas tas money.
Not that I'm any kind of and expert but I am pretty knowledgable on the grooming program. In our winter rec program, (motorized) we do have an entire panel of people on it the decide for the entire state where the money should be spent. There are some very dedicated and loyal snowmobilers on that panel that have to fight with non motorized, DNR, county and state people to figure out where the money goes. They try their hardest to get it on the snow but there are a lot of expendatures that go with the grooming. IE, sanitation, plowing, maintance, sheds, miles of paper work, maps, signs, snowpark repairs and lots lots more. It's watched and followed by "real snowmobilers" on a volenteer basis, they dont get paid one dime for all their work. Yes we have people watching out for our spending, it just cost a lot of money to play now adays. AND REMEMBER, THE STATE GETS NONE OF OUR MONEY, WE PAY TO PLAY with our license money and gas tas money.
C
Comp 670
Well-known member
I think the best solution is to try to make it like revy.Pay at the trailhead each ride.That way the money you pay is used to groom the trail YOU ride.If the greenies want thier trails groomed they can buy a groomer and do thier own....
I would gladly keep paying the money we pay now for sled reg and then pay a trailhead fee.As long as it went directly into the care,grooming and upkeep of that snowpark/trail system.
I think we all seem to agree more money is needed.Time to decide how to make it happen.
I would gladly keep paying the money we pay now for sled reg and then pay a trailhead fee.As long as it went directly into the care,grooming and upkeep of that snowpark/trail system.
I think we all seem to agree more money is needed.Time to decide how to make it happen.
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