Gear up Alpha

[nolanbedard]

I like this one KaneDog! I will join you outside the box. I’m on a NA 165” Alpha with a Specialty/C3 belt drive, what’s your recommendation for a starting point?

22/75 will get me 59.74MPH @ full shift on a 3.40 Ratio is that a good starting point or would you recommend to go lower yet? Will that combo fit? What about belt length? Did you have to go to a longer belt drive belt?


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Where are you getting the gears for belts drives that low? Specialty only shows gearing up to 2.63 for the alpha... Custom gears?

 

[kanedog]

Pfeifer

Where are you getting the gears for belts drives that low? Specialty only shows gearing up to 2.63 for the alpha... Custom gears?

Pfeifer Engineering. They have a fixture that holds the pulley for cutting the teeth and broaching the splines in one shot. It’s more perfecter this way.

 

[kanedog]

So you’re saying that gearing down reduces trenching?? Never heard that before.

With the correct clutches and calibration, yes. Most don’t spend the time though. They get close, it feels good so that’s as far as it goes.
Or peeps try it with incorrect components, get crappy results so they give up and poopoo the idea.
The key is to think outside the box. 95% can’t. Haha

 

[nolanbedard]

With the correct clutches and calibration, yes. Most don’t spend the time though. They get close, it feels good so that’s as far as it goes.
Or peeps try it with incorrect components, get crappy results so they give up and poopoo the idea.
The key is to think outside the box. 95% can’t. Haha

I’m intrigued by your gear down philosophy kanedog. I’ve gear down old sleds in the past but never that far. I see so many guys gearing up the alphas now too, but my 2020 leaves a lot of primary left unused, and your logic makes sense. Gear down to give the motor more leverage and use the full range of the clutches capacity. I don’t have belt drive yet, but if I did, I’d be seriously thinking about gearing the way you have.

its seems like you have spent a lot of time and money mastering clutching on numerous sleds... do you think gains can be had with belt driven gear down and stock clutches (not Necessarily stock clutching) On an alpha 165? I believe you said previously you have custom clutches...or atleast highly modified.

if you would cough it up, I’d be interest to know your full mod specs on a alpha 165... motor mods, clutching, clutches, gearing via belt drive.

 

[kanedog]

I’m intrigued by your gear down philosophy kanedog. I’ve gear down old sleds in the past but never that far. I see so many guys gearing up the alphas now too, but my 2020 leaves a lot of primary left unused, and your logic makes sense. Gear down to give the motor more leverage and use the full range of the clutches capacity. I don’t have belt drive yet, but if I did, I’d be seriously thinking about gearing the way you have.

its seems like you have spent a lot of time and money mastering clutching on numerous sleds... do you think gains can be had with belt driven gear down and stock clutches (not Necessarily stock clutching) On an alpha 165? I believe you said previously you have custom clutches...or atleast highly modified.

if you would cough it up, I’d be interest to know your full mod specs on a alpha 165... motor mods, clutching, clutches, gearing via belt drive.

On a Alpha 165” I’d say there are some stock clutching gains to be had but nothing too groundbreaking. The sled works pretty good out of the box but the clutches wear pretty quick and then performance drops off. Keep an eye on the clutches and maintain them yourself. Clean them every 300-500mount and get to know them. When they wear out, replace them. I have found by just maintaining clutches, it is a huge advantage as most don’t have the time or don’t care.
If doing any gearing on any sled, keep going lower until the primary comes within 5/8” of the top of primary. There’s not a lot of lower ratios available currently. Although, you can put in a 52 king cat bottom gear and that will help a bit.(stock is 50 tooth). I go a bunch lower but it takes custom pulleys, fab, messing around and tuning. Keep checking my posts and you can see what I am up to. I’m an open book.

My sled is 2019 Alpha changed to a 154” twin rail. Pipe, y pipe, two degree timing key, Polaris p85 primary, Paragon 6 pack secondary, 22/74 gearing, coupled suspension. I don’t have any riding time on it yet.

Cheers!

 

[Mentzel]

Not an Alpha but it’s 8000rpm. It’s almost there. Just a tad higher on the sheave and she be good.
View attachment 335420

This is really good shift out on primary. I would call it good unless you are super anal. Maybe work on upshift and back shift now. You can nearly double your up shift speed now. Thats when you will really notice the sled pull harder. So change helix angle in secondary for faster upshift. [emoji1303]

And hang on tight!

 

[kanedog]

Love your post! Finally someone gets it!!!!!!
Yes, I’m super anal. Always looking for the holy grail! Currently running a 52/42 and I have a 56/51 so I will give it a try! Thx

 

[Mentzel]

Love your post! Finally someone gets it!!!!!!
Yes, I’m super anal. Always looking for the holy grail! Currently running a 52/42 and I have a 56/51 so I will give it a try! Thx

I’ve been building mod sleds a long time. Clutching / gearing basics have not changed much over the years. The OEM calibrations on new sleds has been weird though. Why they now gear a mountain sled for 82 mph then only use half the clutches for shifting is baffling.

For best performance use the whole clutch then upshift/backshift as fast as engine power curve allows. [emoji1303]

Now that your gearing is correct and you have full shift out, adjusting the upshift/back shift speed is where you will really feel gains.

If you pin sled from a stop or rolling start in deep snow it should start to lug at 7800 then pull to 8100. Best to load engine as much as possible but still get to the peak power point.

If it over revs then pulls back (8300 slides to 8100) increase the helix angle. Up shift it faster!

If you change power output of the engine.. start all over with gearing then clutching. The fun never ends!

 

[Mentzel]

Love your post! Finally someone gets it!!!!!!
Yes, I’m super anal. Always looking for the holy grail! Currently running a 52/42 and I have a 56/51 so I will give it a try! Thx

Also the 56/51 may drag down Rs on top a little. But I would try it for sure.

So steeper helix on bottom then similar on top would be best
Try 56/42 helix which would up shift faster but maintain peak RPM

or 56/40 helix would upshift faster and lift revs slightly on top if needed.

Take close notes on shifting patterns and peak RPMs now.

 

[kanedog]

Everything you shared relates to my sitcheashun!
I had the engine “grunting” and pulling good when I was doubling my wife(Yea, I was crazy hill climbing with my wife riding squirrel, heehee). Riding solo, I changed to a lower gear ratio and I wasn’t able to get the “grunt” back. The rpm’s went up and it was hard to keep them at 7950(800 Etec). It still went good but not like before.
I was kinda lost so I am looking forward to trying the steeper helix. I tried 56/51 before and it definitely pulled harder.
I will take notes. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[richardderkevorkian]

I’m intrigued by your gear down philosophy kanedog. I’ve gear down old sleds in the past but never that far. I see so many guys gearing up the alphas now too, but my 2020 leaves a lot of primary left unused, and your logic makes sense. Gear down to give the motor more leverage and use the full range of the clutches capacity. I don’t have belt drive yet, but if I did, I’d be seriously thinking about gearing the way you have.

its seems like you have spent a lot of time and money mastering clutching on numerous sleds... do you think gains can be had with belt driven gear down and stock clutches (not Necessarily stock clutching) On an alpha 165? I believe you said previously you have custom clutches...or atleast highly modified.

if you would cough it up, I’d be interest to know your full mod specs on a alpha 165... motor mods, clutching, clutches, gearing via belt drive.

The hub on the secondary is too big for the belt to shift all the way out in the primary. it's been like this since they switched to the boss secondary... Mark both clutches with a sharpie then go 70 across a field and check your marks. the secondary mark will be gone & the center hub will be black from the belt rubbing and there's going to be a 3/4'' black mark left on the primary because the belt isn't long enough to shift out.

 

[nolanbedard]

The hub on the secondary is too big for the belt to shift all the way out in the primary. it's been like this since they switched to the boss secondary... Mark both clutches with a sharpie then go 70 across a field and check your marks. the secondary mark will be gone & the center hub will be black from the belt rubbing and there's going to be a 3/4'' black mark left on the primary because the belt isn't long enough to shift out.

I did actually notice that as well. I’ve read on this forum about guys using longer belts but no statement of which one. They may have had aftermarket secondaries too..

that’s gotta be hard on belts when they get stretched like that...

 

[kanedog]

I did actually notice that as well. I’ve read on this forum about guys using longer belts but no statement of which one. They may have had aftermarket secondaries too..

that’s gotta be hard on belts when they get stretched like that...

Holy cow! The stock clutching and gearing on an Alpha leaves tuners at a dead end. Engineering at its finest. So lame.

 

[nolanbedard]

 

[nolanbedard]

 

[E-Zmoke 4:20]

The hub on the secondary is too big for the belt to shift all the way out in the primary. it's been like this since they switched to the boss secondary... Mark both clutches with a sharpie then go 70 across a field and check your marks. the secondary mark will be gone & the center hub will be black from the belt rubbing and there's going to be a 3/4'' black mark left on the primary because the belt isn't long enough to shift out.

What is your recommendation to fix this issue Richard?


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[Mentzel]

Gee whiz on that Cat secondary issue. I would dump the stocker and get a Team Tied secondary. That hub size issue is limiting for sure. The Team Tied is not that expensive. Calibrating it will take patience though.

A longer belt won’t fix anything.

That must feel like an old 2 speed power-glide transmission. Why even use a CVT transmission if that is all the shifting you get?

 

[kiliki]

team is making the cat secondary and primary. Gear change will make a bit of a difference.

 

[Mentzel]

team is making the cat secondary and primary. Gear change will make a bit of a difference.

A gear change won’t fix that.. The Team BOSS is definitely not the Team “Tied” version. It has a much smaller hub and axial sheave movement.

 

[Mentzel]

I think you would need to change jackshaft bearings and sprockets to use the Tied clutch though. The Team BOSS secondary clutch has a special jackshaft integral to the secondary design.

CAT really F-d the football on this WOW.

I would change it all though. uggg