Finally ran it against an Etec!

[Jaynelson]

Intro: my Pro 163" vs Etec 154" (non-X model). Both bone stock under the hood....no clutching, no cans, nothing. Mine has a vent kit, a skidplate and some bags. No gas cans or tunnel bags. Just shy of 600 miles on mine, roughly the same on his.

Snow: ~8" two day old fresh on top of set-up harder snow. Still drier-ish snow...not spring slushy stuff. It was good traction and low avy-conditions....either machine carried tons of speed and would have climbed right into the rocks.

Good sized hill, pretty steep, fresh tracks for each sled.

Pro would hole-shot the Etec a bit (maybe longer track?), then the etec would real back in slowly until they were dead even, then they would stay that way to the top. Couldn't get an edge on either sled...couldn't have been much more even. If I wanted to be a wanker....I weigh about 20lbs more and had my pack on vs lighter dude with no backpack. I doubt this would change the outcome. Not much skill involved....buddy arm-dropped us and we hammered it. Tried a few runs, same deal everytime....got boring quick lol. Etec ran 7900-8000 which is apparently where it should be....mine runs 8100 give or take.

In the conditions, I don't think track size made a difference. Riding the etec, it "feels" a little more powerful, as the skid setup allows it to wheelie more. I suppose you could dial that out, or setup the pro to wheelie more if you wished. But when you line them up....there is little to no difference. If there is a 15hp (or whatever) difference, it's hidden very well!

 

[IDAHO HOT SHOT]

If you compare Sq footprint the 163 x 15 is about the same as the 154 x 16. Scientifically, I've always wondered which is best. I've heard the 16 wide is a slower track, but it is also a heavier track I believe. In the snow, is it fair to compare a 163 x 15 to a 154 x 16? I'm not trying to be an antagonist, I really would like to know.

 

[AndrettiDog]

Interesting. The Pro is a terrible drag sled because the 5.1 doesn't hook up well for hole shots. It normally slides around a bit.

 

[robertyoke]

I can add to this with a drag race against a cat

the snow was so so, could go about anywhere you wanted to go, sort of crusted over powder snow. so why not a little drag race.

lined up in the fresh snow with my pro, all stock 163 vs 2010 m8 with can (dont know which one other then a loud one) 162.
first run dead even all the way across the field, couldnt have been closer
second run, pro came out of the hole a little harder carried the skis in the air and wasnt really wasnt going the right direction, but got a good jump on the cat after correcting direction the cat was gaining ground and the sleds ran side by side. toward the end of the field the cat was pulling away with a higher top speed, maybe the powerclaw, geaing or clutching has more shift out.
but as far as the cat guys claiming 20 more hp.....no way the sleds are really close.

polaris either lied about the hp on this motor or this sled is wasting no power to get the hp to the snow, which could be since every time i would check the temp of the clutches they would be luke warm at best.

 

[Tec]

My Pro 155 with Vohk clutching is dead even with my Buddy's Freeride 154 Etec, Not that either one of us cares! It's a mountain sled, and they both RIP in the deep.

 

[WyoPro]

Man, this **** gets old...

 

[Jaynelson]

Was not across flats... pretty decent slopes we ran on with good hookup

 

[Rick!]

If "snowmobiler" or his grandma were not present during any of the alleged "dead even" drag races, then it's possible that the results are not valid. I also believe that CRFred has to be present to make sure his mod puts the beat down on every sled on the hill.

 

[Slick]

crfred may be fast, but fredw will make him look silly, on either his etec or BB. Neither have ever been beat. If fredw gets a buddy to ride one , then wichever one he rides wins. Its uncanny. Big difference tho, crfred is running BC air fredw southern alberta air.

 

[snowmobiler]

gramma said..wake up your dreaming.you guys are a little short on hp to ride with the big boys

 

[RKT]

One thing to consider and this gets over-looked 99% of the time..

Please keep in mind.. winning a race does not tell you about the HP of the engine!! Honestly, when "racing" the HP is obvious a player but not the main player... I knw it is hard to believe (especially for the riders back east) but HP can not be measured or any "final" result via a race up a hill or on a flat.. To truley test which sled is producing more power, you must have equal tracks and weights, clutched properly, and a MOUNTAIN with some serious deep snow on it.. then the highmark on the hill will tell you which sled is producing he better power.

Think of a diesel chev and a gas chev truck.. Put them onthe hwy in Nebraska and open them up in a race.. Guess what.. they are near equal (not the 150+HP difference you KNOW are there) Now take the same 2 trucks and put 10,000lbs behind them and do the race all over again. MUCH different results.. WHY?? LOADING!!

Same with a sled.. until you fully load the sled (ie deep powder hill pull) you will not see the real difference in power.

Kelsey

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

One thing to consider and this gets over-looked 99% of the time..

Please keep in mind.. winning a race does not tell you about the HP of the engine!! Honestly, when "racing" the HP is obvious a player but not the main player... I knw it is hard to believe (especially for the riders back east) but HP can not be measured or any "final" result via a race up a hill or on a flat.. To truley test which sled is producing more power, you must have equal tracks and weights, clutched properly, and a MOUNTAIN with some serious deep snow on it.. then the highmark on the hill will tell you which sled is producing he better power.

Think of a diesel chev and a gas chev truck.. Put them onthe hwy in Nebraska and open them up in a race.. Guess what.. they are near equal (not the 150+HP difference you KNOW are there) Now take the same 2 trucks and put 10,000lbs behind them and do the race all over again. MUCH different results.. WHY?? LOADING!!

Same with a sled.. until you fully load the sled (ie deep powder hill pull) you will not see the real difference in power.

Kelsey

Well Kelsey, while I agree up to a point, that will only work with everything identical between the two sleds except for motors...to much difference in chassis, skid,track and drivetrain loss, now with that said, I have run a 163 e-tec against my 163 pro on a deep hill(2-3 ft of 2 day old snow on another 3-4 ft base)..the pro went over the top of 2 hills the e-tec could only get 3/4 the way up..and we swapped riders back and forth all day, results always the same..I do beleive the e-tec makes more power, but I think the pro utilizes its power better, and is getting as much if not more to the ground then either the e-tec or the current m-8... as for the truck comparison...gm 8.1 gasser would pull with or better then any same year stock deisel....

 

[RKT]

AK..I should have been more clear.. I am talking abut the 6.0 gasser not the 8.1 which is very similair is HP and torque as the duramax... Point being.. in a flat out HWY drag race, unloaded, the, way, less powered 6.0 or even the 5.3 will run with the Duramax.. Add some "load" and the results change in a hurry..

Having said all that.. In direct response the HP rating of the Pro.. I have dyno results that show the Pro closer 150-152HP which, I believe, to be a more accurate representation of the power output..

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

thats very true, both the 5.3 and the 6 are pretty anemic, I currently drive a 6.2 in a denali..it pulls pretty good though...doubt it would pull a load in the hills as good as a new duramax, we have 5 8.1's and 6 duramaxs at work right now in anything from a 3500 up to 6500's, the 8.1's are the choice for hauling loads across the state....
any luck on your pro mods yet? curious to see what you guys are finding.............

 

[Jaynelson]

Sorry, but the turbo diesel vs gas pot example is not a good one at all.

Those engines have very different torque curves and power characteristics. By design, turbocharged low-rev engines respond much more effectively to increased load than NA engines, and higher-rev NA engines act much differently in an unloaded drag-races. Either is much more "at home" doing what it was intended to do.

Here we have 2 machines with engines that have (for all intensive purposes) VERY similar displacement, torque curves, RPM range, driveline setups, track footprint, weight, etc, etc....doing what they're both built to do. If that's not a fair comparison ??

 

[RKT]

Sorry, but the turbo diesel vs gas pot example is not a good one at all.

Those engines have very different torque curves and power characteristics. By design, turbocharged low-rev engines respond much more effectively to increased load than NA engines, and higher-rev NA engines act much differently in an unloaded drag-races. Either is much more "at home" doing what it was intended to do.

Here we have 2 machines with engines that have (for all intensive purposes) VERY similar displacement, torque curves, RPM range, driveline setups, track footprint, weight, etc, etc....doing what they're both built to do. If that's not a fair comparison ??

Ya, there are surely better comparisons to be had.. But the fact that a underpowered (greatly) truck can run in a flat race with a much higher powered engine does tell you something about the VALIDITY of the whole "race to determine HP" scenario..

Another quick example.

I Was Grass Drag Champ for 7 Years... In a 500ft. drag race I would beat 90% of the other racers by 200ft.. (yes, I really did have more HP than the others.. true comparison) Now, if it rained on us, I would lose to a STOCK sled by 50-100ft.... Same day same track.. So, did that stock sled suddenly gain HP and out -power my sled in the drage RACE? OR did I suddenly lose 40HP?? Answer: NOPE on both... What happened was that the conditions present (slippery track) did not favor my sled and the higher power actually hindered speed.
Point being... again, racing does not define the HP.. Put it to a real test and you will see which sled is producing the better power.

Oh, the torque thing.. Not really relevant... we clutch our sled to peak HP NOT peak torque.. You can not make HP without torque.. HP is a CALCULATED value NOT a MEASURED value.. it is calculated via torque and RPM ONLY.. so, given near same RPMS, you can NOT have more HP without producing more torque... the formula speaks for itself....Remember I already agreed with you that comparing a lower revving diesel against the higher revving gasser was not a great comparision.. but the "determining scenario"(testing method).. ie RACING is..IMO , of course

 

[gman086]

Interesting. The Pro is a terrible drag sled because the 5.1 doesn't hook up well for hole shots. It normally slides around a bit.

That's the opposite of what I've found! My 5.1 hooks up so well that it's WAY out in front in drags with most other sleds for the holeshot. I think the track and short stroke of the Pro's 800 motor is playing a much larger part than peeps realize. I would'nt trade my 5.1 for a PC or CE even here in Cascade concrete! I've also found that the Pro's lack of HP leads to the other comparable sleds eventually slowly catching and passing it. My '07 Summit beats down my '11 Pro but not out of the hole and the '07 isn't exactly stock while the Pro is. I think the Pro has some real potential with a head and pipe (and even then you're still ahead of the Etec on total cost), it just needs more power at full shift.

Have FUN!

G MAN

 

[WyoPro]

The sky is NOT blue...

 

[Jaynelson]

RKT- I hear what you're saying, however, I think comparisons in deeper snow would bring out even more variables.....track design, suspension setup, exact clutching setup (with different clutch systems), exacerbate any differences in rider weight and style, yada yada. I think you end up making HP comparison much more difficult, to be honest.

I think for comparing straight power (at the track) this was a reasonably fair real-world comparo. The only way to accurately compare true engine power (at the crank) is on an engine dyno...otherwise there will always be too many variables.

I thought about drawing a line in the snow and using it as a point for a rolling-start race, to try and take some of the traction variable away....get lined up and cruising along at X speed, then whack it at the line. But that's starting to be a stretch....it is what it is. Either sled could edge the other with minor HP and/or clutch mods I'm sure.

 

[WyoPro]

Either sled could edge the other with minor HP and/or clutch mods I'm sure.

Haha....you girls done arguing yet?