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Fighting Wilderness Designation…Ideas?

Fighting Wilderness Designation…Ideas?

I know that this general Idea has been discussed before, but I will try and go more in depth.

“When an action has a disproportionate effect on some group (racial, ethnic, gender, whatever), it can be challenged as illegal discrimination--even if there was no discriminatory intent.”

This is not law but, the framing many groups or individuals use to sue. It should not surprise you that this idea has been used to block or render illegal all sorts of stuff. Think employee rights, National ID card, public transit. This brings me to the root of our problems; The Wilderness Act, specifically this little section:

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES

(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

There are currently 107,436,608 acres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_Act) designated wilderness in this country. This is a huge track of land virtually inaccessible to large numbers of people. The two main groups I am thinking of are, some disabled and Low income people. They pay taxes to maintain lands that that is in essence fenced off to them. Not to cut on disabled people but it’s fairly obvious why accessing wilderness would be tough for them, I will expand on low income.

Low income family X Dad remembers when he was a kid driving to see some cool stuff in some recently designated wilderness area. Family X gets to the park only to see gates where the road once existed. Family X finds out it’s a 6 day hike in and out to see the cool stuff over some pretty gnarly terrain. They would all need backcountry gear, a guide, more time off work, and the stamina to complete the journey. That adds up to some serious $$$. Just to get a glimpse of their, and every other tax paying citizens land.

My point is; whether or not you get to see what lays within these sacred wilderness areas greatly deepens on your situation in life and how much money you have. The cost to visit a wilderness area on foot safely is much greater than if there were mechanical access. This difference in price will most definitely limit or stop some people from accessing their land. It is public land that’s only open to a privileged few. Just imagine the outrage if the US government started to charge for tours of the US capital. You would hear the same argument I just laid out.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 12898

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1-1. IMPLEMENTATION.

1-101. Agency Responsibilities. To the greatest extent practicable and permitted by law, and consistent with the principles set forth In the report on the National Performance Review, each Federal agency shall make achieving environmental justice part of its mission by identifying and addressing, as appropriate, disproportionately high and adverse human health or environmental effects of its programs, policies, and activities on minority populations and low-income populations in the United States and its territories and possessions, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the Commonwealth of the Marian islands.

I think I could make a strong argument that the wilderness act and this executive order are contradictory. E.G. the best 107,436,608 acres in this country are off limits to me, that negatively affects my health, mental or otherwise. I don’t know what the hell “environmental effects” means exactly, seems like kind of a catch all old slick Willie snuck in there. I don’t think this order would be effective in fighting wilderness designation but I do think it’s interesting. Especially since liberals cant live with the ideal of policy having a disparate negative impact levied on minorities, or the poor by anyone.

The open access community could sue under these guidelines. All they would need is a group or individual who thinks wilderness designation unfairly targets them. Even if it didn’t work it would slow them down. I am guessing that some lawyer at BRC or somewhere else thought of this already and could tell me why it wouldn’t work. I am interested to hear what people think and other ideas to stop this Wilderness nonsense.
 
I think we need to hit them where it hurts and create Wilderness areas in the middle of D.C. and New York City. This needs to be sponsored by represnetatives in states that are far far away. Make sure that these areas wipe out big areas that are used by people and cause grid lock everywhere else trying to drive around these areas. We can find some "endangered species" in those areas and use that for justification.
 
I think we need to hit them where it hurts and create Wilderness areas in the middle of D.C. and New York City. This needs to be sponsored by represnetatives in states that are far far away. Make sure that these areas wipe out big areas that are used by people and cause grid lock everywhere else trying to drive around these areas. We can find some "endangered species" in those areas and use that for justification.

White males that are registered citizens who pay taxes?
 
WOW somesones been doing some homework. Good on you man, thanks for at least trying.
I think you might be on to something and I doubt BRC or the likes have tried or even thought of this just because they have LIMITED funds and all their time and money goes into fighting any upcoming closures...which means they are BUSY.
It might be worth our time to look into this.
Is anyone on here a lawyer or can find us one that could help us out?

I had a thought about starting a Wilderness Awarness campaign were all we do is inform the general public what Wilderness Areas are and what Wilderness Orgs true intentions are because I know for a fact the majority of the public doesn't know.
The rest just think motorized users can go where ever the dang please and need to be shut out of a few areas.
 
I'm with you flatland. My biggest issue with Wilderness (other than taking away my snowmobile riding) is that that land effectively becomes off-limits for anybody but the rich, able-bodied who have time on their hands. To take advantage of those areas you have to have enough money to buy the equipment to visit them safely, you need to be physically in good shape so that you can walk to your destination and back out and you have to have enough time to be able to walk a ways into these areas and back out. In my mind this pretty much limits these areas to the rich and young who don't have to work for a living. That eliminates an awful lot of people who will ever get to see or enjoy the land their taxes are paying for. Essentially they are just taking this land away from the majority of the nation.

My $.02
 
is it possible to designate "non-wilderness" areas or "Power Recreation" areas

pass a law that as of this moment that all national forest lands not designated wilderness are now "Power Recreation" areas forever
 
Preserve Recreation Act of 2009
Power Recreation is defined as activities directly utilizing power not produced by the participant; snowmobiling, dirt bike riding, street bike riding, race car driving, etc... Recreation such as skiing or hiking are not Power Recreation.

All lands designated as Power Recreation areas are for that purpose. Other recreation activities may be allowed per Power Recreation Administration decision board. For safety, under no circumstances is cross-country skiing or road biking allowed in a Power Recreation area.

Furthermore, overweight persons or generally unattractive persons shall not wear spandex or other tight fitting garments where there is the slightest chance someone else may see you.
 
Lots of Non-Wilderness areas are closed for other reasons. Wildlife area close lots of trails/areas, elk/moose/deer winter areas, lynx, wolverine, spotted owl, etc..... Stream polluting and erosion control closes a lot. Like I've said, I have yet to find one square inch of public land, some lunatic isn't willing to through themselves in front of a bulldozer for. And, I have yet to find many people willing to go to jail, to prove the opposite point. Heck, even loggers and miners seemingly lost their jobs over this krap, and didn't really do anything about it.

I think the low income people, and families have a good point; of claiming discrimination. I think there's a battle a brewing over not only disabled, but real access for the disabled. It wouldn't surprise me if you see disabled people on ATV's enjoying a little wilderness one day. I think the definition of disabled, is pretty broad, since most american's can't hike 20 miles anymore.

Here pretty soon, we'll be able to claim discrimination.

Oh BTW, there's 109.5 million acres of wilderness. This represents an area 52 times larger than Yellowstone National Park. You have to imagine their are regions of some wildernesses, that never get visited anymore.
 
Also, amend the Wilderness Act such that any new wilderness declarations will have a 5 year wait period once passed (there will be no more since remaining forest land will be Power Recreation areas) AND something to the effect that all government employees must relocate out of the new wilderness area (a lot of wilderness supporters work for BLM, FS, etc... and may be designating it for personal use / reasons).

.
 
I know that this general Idea has been discussed before, but I will try and go more in depth.

“When an action has a disproportionate effect on some group (racial, ethnic, gender, whatever), it can be challenged as illegal discrimination--even if there was no discriminatory intent.”

This is not law but, the framing many groups or individuals use to sue. It should not surprise you that this idea has been used to block or render illegal all sorts of stuff. Think employee rights, National ID card, public transit. This brings me to the root of our problems; The Wilderness Act, specifically this little section:

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES

(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

There are currently 107,436,608 acres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_Act) designated wilderness in this country. This is a huge track of land virtually inaccessible to large numbers of people. The two main groups I am thinking of are, some disabled and Low income people. They pay taxes to maintain lands that that is in essence fenced off to them. Not to cut on disabled people but it’s fairly obvious why accessing wilderness would be tough for them, I will expand on low income.

Low income family X Dad remembers when he was a kid driving to see some cool stuff in some recently designated wilderness area. Family X gets to the park only to see gates where the road once existed. Family X finds out it’s a 6 day hike in and out to see the cool stuff over some pretty gnarly terrain. They would all need backcountry gear, a guide, more time off work, and the stamina to complete the journey. That adds up to some serious $$$. Just to get a glimpse of their, and every other tax paying citizens land.

My point is; whether or not you get to see what lays within these sacred wilderness areas greatly deepens on your situation in life and how much money you have. The cost to visit a wilderness area on foot safely is much greater than if there were mechanical access. This difference in price will most definitely limit or stop some people from accessing their land. It is public land that’s only open to a privileged few. Just imagine the outrage if the US government started to charge for tours of the US capital. You would hear the same argument I just laid out.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 12898

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1-1. IMPLEMENTATION.

1-101. Agency Responsibilities. To the greatest extent practicable and permitted by law, and consistent with the principles set forth In the report on the National Performance Review, each Federal agency shall make achieving environmental justice part of its mission by identifying and addressing, as appropriate, disproportionately high and adverse human health or environmental effects of its programs, policies, and activities on minority populations and low-income populations in the United States and its territories and possessions, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the Commonwealth of the Marian islands.

I think I could make a strong argument that the wilderness act and this executive order are contradictory. E.G. the best 107,436,608 acres in this country are off limits to me, that negatively affects my health, mental or otherwise. I don’t know what the hell “environmental effects” means exactly, seems like kind of a catch all old slick Willie snuck in there. I don’t think this order would be effective in fighting wilderness designation but I do think it’s interesting. Especially since liberals cant live with the ideal of policy having a disparate negative impact levied on minorities, or the poor by anyone.

The open access community could sue under these guidelines. All they would need is a group or individual who thinks wilderness designation unfairly targets them. Even if it didn’t work it would slow them down. I am guessing that some lawyer at BRC or somewhere else thought of this already and could tell me why it wouldn’t work. I am interested to hear what people think and other ideas to stop this Wilderness nonsense.

YES, I have thought about the ADA piece of this a few years ago. I had a customer who frequented my retail store in a wheel chair. He was also an avid skier. It entered my mind to try to get him involved in the sport (snowmobiling), but I fought the thought of feeling like I was exploiting him along with his disability and never pursued it. I think we need an "organization" involved, rather than "individuals". :confused:
 
I think you have a good idea there. You can learn about the "coordination" process and requirements at Stewards of the Range and I think you should even give Fred Grant a call and see if he has ever explored your angle.

I am working an angle right now where i am approaching all local businesses and asking them to commit their typical community donation/sponsorship funds to a newly created legal fund working to preserve shared motorized use on State and Federal public lands.

My hope is that when the Little League coach comes asking for new uniforms, he and the parents will be fired up to find out that all donated funds are now going to help keep public lands open for the very generation that he is coaching.

I think most people will see that having a place for our youth to recreate is far more important than a new jersey or a weekend at camp. I will then encourage the coach and parents to contact the Forest Supervisor to find out why local funds are not available for local organizations, but instead, must be spent to fight policy and closure.

I hope this creates a well funded legal effort and also a grass roots opposition that will get the people who have as of yet remained silent into the game. Maybe when little Johnny has to wear an old jersey or can't sell his pig at the fair people will get a little pizzed off and get involved. We'll see. Keep us posted. Good luck. EW
 
I think your idea is good Eric but I just hope it doesn't backfire and those parents get pizzed at the companies giving the money for supporting public lands...not the FS or the likes.

I had a thought about making pamphlets about what Wilderness Areas do and what the Wildnerss Orgs only intentions are. I think most people supporting these Orgs are thinking their actually protecting the forest and not just roping it off like their doing.
I know of a couple families that have snowmobiles AND Wilderness plates??? Pretty sure they don't know what they're supporting.
MT would be easier to do since we have designation plates and could just slip the flyer under any wiper blade that had these plates, other states would be a little tuffer.

We need to get the word out because these little forums aren't going to stop it, he11 everyone on these forums isn't even a supporter.
 
You should see the fights the mountain bike community gets in, over wilderness. Some meetings have just about went to punches.

On one hand, they hate wilderness. On the other, they support it. What they really want, is to change the laws to allow mountain bikes in wilderness. But, even they have learned the hard way; wilderness environmentalist are crazy, and will never let that happen. It's a religious thing to them.
 
I've been involved with proposed wilderness changes for the last few years. It's amazing what is going on. Liberal groups work hard in big numbers to "pinch" off more and more every year. While there are a ton of a motorized mostly conservative people out there, we don't do much as a group to prevent this. I do believe that the closures are very one track minded for those that would like the wilderness to be their play ground. They use wildlife and environmental positions to justify their movement. But the biggest thing they have going for them is numbers and money.

We have so few people on this 4M that are part of clubs. I tell people to join not to get their money, but to make the group bigger and stronger (strength in numbers). People have multiple machines worth thousands and can't bother to drop $35 on membership. You don't have to do anything, you don't have to go to meetings, rides or anything else. But the movement has to grow so that we have money for attorny's and other methods to fight back.

In a bigger group we could expose their BS claims on some of the wildlife claims. We could also expose the same groups for their dedication to large ski resorts that have a MUCH larger impact on the backcountry than we do (what a f'n contradiction by those people).

The summer plan is much worse (for closures). With the closures, wildlife, sound and emmission rules we are playing in their world.

Keep complaining or do something about it!
 
Good stuff, it’s nice to know people care, not too many off trail riders in WI. It would just be nice to be able to go on the offensive. All of our resources go to fighting closures, and their resources go towards more closures. Open access groups are forced into a perpetual defensive position, and that’s no way to win a fight. It would be nice to divert some of the enviro-freaks resources to fight opening up land instead of vice versa. SnowSnob you are 100% correct about the term “wilderness area.” People don’t understand what it means, and like most thinks in D.C. its name is misleading. Rebranding “wilderness areas” as something bad could help. We should come up with something catchy/bumper sticker worthy.
 
Good stuff, it’s nice to know people care, not too many off trail riders in WI. It would just be nice to be able to go on the offensive. All of our resources go to fighting closures, and their resources go towards more closures. Open access groups are forced into a perpetual defensive position, and that’s no way to win a fight. It would be nice to divert some of the enviro-freaks resources to fight opening up land instead of vice versa. SnowSnob you are 100% correct about the term “wilderness area.” People don’t understand what it means, and like most thinks in D.C. its name is misleading. Rebranding “wilderness areas” as something bad could help. We should come up with something catchy/bumper sticker worthy.

Wilderness, the land of NO USE.

Off the top of my head:

It is illegal too:
bicycle
hang glide
parachute
snowmobile, motorcycle, atv, 4x4, ect.
wheel barrow
chain saw
helicopter
airplane
game cart
horse drawn wagon
snowboard kiting
base jump
climbing bolts
group get together without a permit
No group of 12 heartbeats or more. (most wildernesses)
no horses tethered closer than 200 feet to lakes.
 
I think the overarching point to all of this is to change the burden of proof or rather require one. When the goverment takes criminal action against a person, takes thier liberty, property, etc they carry the burden of proving thier case.

In the case of wilderness, they are taking property from the people. While not from a individual, I feel thier abillity to prove a activity(s) causes damage or impact has not been met. Often is the case if you pay the right like minded researcher enough they will tell you what you want to here.

I am one for conservation. There should be a balence based on the amount of users, area avilable, Etc.

I for one feel like my liberty, my rights are slowly being taken away without due process of law. I dont feel these decisions should be left to one man. This is in many ways a great example of taxation without representation!

As to how to change it...................I wish I knew.........

I'm pretty sure it involves more $ then most recreational users can muster

Good thread
 
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One thing happening in California is pollution fron the Wilderness.

What ... nature pollutes.

Yes it does ... but how?

Lightning strikes the granite rock and ignites natural dead growth on the ground.

Then it burns and the smoke and ash leaves the forest and go into the areas where humans live.

Now the water is polluted outside the forest as well as the air.

People with breathing conditions suffer, and water purification costs more plus life downstream dies from the black water.

So can you notify the American Lung Association on how a wilderness will kill people around it from air pollution?

How man people will die each year from an increase in air pollution from allowing a wilderness to burn? Would this require an EIA?

This all causes a lawsuit in California.


In fact forest watchers will plot smoke directions from a fire to document where the pollution went so to have actual data during litigation.

Do you have to do a EIA by making a forest "natural" plus is there a liability where a forest fire burns out of control and pollutes private property and harms human life? What if the smoke hurts pets, animals livestock? Is there a liability? What if fisheries downstream loose business because the water is polluted from the fire?
 
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Wilderness, the land of NO USE.

Off the top of my head:

It is illegal too:
bicycle
hang glide
parachute
snowmobile, motorcycle, atv, 4x4, ect.
wheel barrow
chain saw
helicopter
airplane
game cart
horse drawn wagon
snowboard kiting
base jump
climbing bolts
group get together without a permit
No group of 12 heartbeats or more. (most wildernesses)
no horses tethered closer than 200 feet to lakes.

in addition... there exsists what is called a "primitive" area. Has all the same restrictions a wilderness & horses must wear a diaper, and humans must pack out their "poo' in baggies. This "Primitive" area does not require a vote by congress, it can be desiginated by the head Ranger of said Forest Service district.:mad::mad:
 
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